OT- NBA playoffs Lillard | Page 3 | The Boneyard

OT- NBA playoffs Lillard

superjohn said:
You've really jumped the shark. You've been twisting yourself in a pretzel the whole thread but comparing yourself and some message board posters taking a shot to Damian Lillard taking a shot takes the cake.
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If dribbling the clock out and jacking up a contested 3 is such a good idea, why doesn't he do it every time?
 
nelsonmuntz said:
You are conflating a few items. Let's breakdown my problem with Lilliard's shot.

1) it was from 38 feet
2) It was an ISO pull up
3) He had a top notch defender on him who was also much taller
4) He didn't really run an ISO, he just dribbled the clock out and jacked up a shot.

The NBA website has a lot of sortable data, and it all says the same thing. Catch and Shoot % is about 2-3% higher than shooting off the dribble, and a catch and shoot 3 is about 4 percentage points better. A touch in the paint is close to 60% shooting percentage. Contested shots are lower percentage than uncontested shots.

I don't have good data on shots from 30+ feet. I can't find them on the NBA site in any event. Generally closer is better. I have no problem with setting up a few feet behind the 3 point line to space the floor, but that is not what Lillard did. He did a 38 foot pull up over a much taller defender.

Portland didn't need a 3 pointer. The better play was probably to break George down or run a pick and roll, not pull up from 38 feet. It was a bad shot.
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My main point was about you saying iso is archaic. In which you were clearly way off. I don't care about enough about the Lillard shit. It was a tough shot.
 
Walker11 said:
My main point was about you saying iso is archaic. In which you were clearly way off. I don't care about enough about the Lillard # 2. It was a tough shot.
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ISOs and pick and roll were pretty much all anyone did 20 years ago because of the illegal defense rules. When zones became legal, traditional ISOs, even in end of game situations, became more difficult. Traditional ISOs starting 35+ feet out are old fashioned.
 
Dogdeacon said:
The entire point is that for guys like Steph and Dame those formerly bad shots are becoming better and better shots. But let's go backwards and compare them to a bunch of over-the-hill yahoos at the YMCA. He refused to answer my question about effectiveness of iso's vs set plays in tie games. Why? Because as I predicted and dictated to him he has no data & just uses rebuttals like sample size because that's what the kids are saying these days. And the shot was 37' not 38 :)
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I don't answer your questions because your point keeps changing. My post to Walker above spells my position out clearly.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
ISOs and pick and roll were pretty much all anyone did 20 years ago because of the illegal defense rules. When zones became legal, traditional ISOs, even in end of game situations, became more difficult. Traditional ISOs starting 35+ feet out are old fashioned.
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You didn't even read my post. So archaic that the most progressive franchise is the most iso heavy. Pick and roll and iso is all anyone runs end of game still.

The Rockets boring offense where 4 players stand and do nothing and harden goes ISO is literally called math ball.
 
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Walker11 said:
You didn't even read my post. So archaic that the most progressive franchise is the most iso heavy. Pick and roll and iso is all anyone runs end of game still.

The Rockets boring offense where 4 players stand and do nothing and harden goes ISO is literally called math ball.
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8 of the 16 playoff teams this year assisted on more than 60% of their made fieldgoals. 2 assisted on less than 50%. You are arguing that the NBA should mimic the 2.
 
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nelsonmuntz said:
8 of the 16 playoff teams this year assisted on more than 60% of their made fieldgoals. 2 assisted on less than 50%. You are arguing that the NBA should mimic the 2.
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I don't know if there is as strong a correlation between iso and lack of assists as you seem to think but we can probably stop boring everyone. If you have a really elite offensive player, you go iso a lot. How many Bucks corner 3s come from Giannis drives against overmatched big men?
 
superjohn said:
You've really jumped the shark. You've been twisting yourself in a pretzel the whole thread but comparing yourself and some message board posters taking a shot to Damian Lillard taking a shot takes the cake.
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So you aren’t going to buy a pair of Air Nelsons?
 
Round 2
Lillard - 14/4/4/2/1, 3TOs, 1 of 7 from 3, +4.
Jokic - 16/14/7/1/0, 2TOs, 0 of 1 from 3, +2.

Round 2 - JOKIC.

FIGHT!
 
Crank said:
Round 2
Lillard - 14/4/4/2/1, 3TOs, 1 of 7 from 3, +4.
Jokic - 16/14/7/1/0, 2TOs, 0 of 1 from 3, +2.
Round 2 - JOKIC.
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Not sure I agree with your scoring system, the other 2 judges gave the round to Lillard 97-90 on their scorecards.

Neither had their best game judging from the box score, I didn't see the game, but seems like it was decided early:
"With Jokic taking -- and missing -- just one shot in the first quarter and scoring six points in the first half, the Nuggets trailed 50-35 at halftime after the franchise's worst quarter ever at home in the playoffs, one in which they made just 5 of 23 shots and missed all 10 of their 3-pointers. "
 
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Dogdeacon said:
Not sure I agree with your scoring system, the other 2 judges gave the round to Lillard 97-90 on their scorecards.

Neither had their best game judging from the box score, I didn't see the game, but seems like it was decided early:
"With Jokic taking -- and missing -- just one shot in the first quarter and scoring six points in the first half, the Nuggets trailed 50-35 at halftime after the franchise's worst quarter ever at home in the playoffs, one in which they made just 5 of 23 shots and missed all 10 of their 3-pointers. "
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Come on man, "15 point lead at the half" is not, in today's NBA "decided early."
Jokic had 3 assists, 8 boards, and 6 points in the 1st Half.
Jokic only took one shot in the 1st quarter? They were down by only 5 at the end of the 1st quarter.

But the question isn't "did Jokic have a good game?" The question is, "who had the better game."
Lillard shot 1 of 7 from 3, had only one more assist than turnovers, and only had 4 boards. He plainly had the worse game of the two, and it doesn't seem close.

I don't follow either guy or either team, and I'm just having a bit of fun.

Jokic had 2 more points, 10 more boards, 3 more assists, and 1 fewer Turnover, and shot about 12% higher.

Second Round Winner - Jokic. And it's not even close.
 
It is all in good fun, yet it shouldn't have taken that much effort to counter my point that he whose team wins, wins. Why didn't you do PER for the game? What about +/- as ultimate arbiter? Lillard was obviously a decoy, though he may have had fewer individual counting stats, he was instrumental in helping his team rack up points and render the Joker humorless. Think of the stats deficit as a basketball rope-a-dope. Your scorecard is duly noted and recorded, nonetheless the ruling and decision for game two goes to Lillard 2-1 or 97-90, take your pick.
 
Dogdeacon said:
Not sure I agree with your scoring system, the other 2 judges gave the round to Lillard 97-90 on their scorecards.

Neither had their best game judging from the box score, I didn't see the game, but seems like it was decided early:
"With Jokic taking -- and missing -- just one shot in the first quarter and scoring six points in the first half, the Nuggets trailed 50-35 at halftime after the franchise's worst quarter ever at home in the playoffs, one in which they made just 5 of 23 shots and missed all 10 of their 3-pointers. "
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Nuggets had a million chances and were destroying the Blazers on the offensive glass in the 4th quarter. All they had to do was make a couple shots, they couldn't even make chippies last night. Jokic looked a bit gassed.
 
superjohn said:
Nuggets had a million chances and were destroying the Blazers on the offensive glass in the 4th quarter. All they had to do was make a couple shots, they couldn't even make chippies last night. Jokic looked a bit gassed.
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Shoulda, coulda, woulda...didn't, can't, won't. I believe another poster predicted a Denver slaughter of Portland on Jokic's broad but doughy shoulders. Cine mi se, Portland je najbolje.
 
Apologies for sounding like a hardo but you guys realize how useless it is to go back and forth debating who had the better game when both admit they didn't watch? Both were bad but Jokic at least helped Denver get back in it. McCollum iced the game for Portland.
 
Mark Jackson would be vastly improved as an announcer if he never spoke.
 
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Walker11 said:
Apologies for sounding like a hardo but you guys realize how useless it is to go back and forth debating who had the better game when both admit they didn't watch? Both were bad but Jokic at least helped Denver get back in it. McCollum iced the game for Portland.
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That's kind of the point. FIGHT but possibly a slap fight.
 
Walker11 said:
Apologies for sounding like a hardo but you guys realize how useless it is to go back and forth debating who had the better game when both admit they didn't watch? Both were bad but Jokic at least helped Denver get back in it. McCollum iced the game for Portland.
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You're one of like 4 people who actually watches the games. It seems the ones with some of the strongest opinions don't even watch or like the NBA.
 
Has there been a more overrated NBA player the past decade or so than Kyle Lowry? I've been calling him out for years, amazing he's a 5 time all-star.
 
superjohn said:
Has there been a more overrated NBA player the past decade or so than Kyle Lowry? I've been calling him out for years, amazing he's a 5 time all-star.
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He's a poor man's Harden, great regular season player - drops off a cliff every year in postseason. But he's first and foremost a great defender, so evaluating him purely on his offensive output isn't fair. Yet equally matchup wise in the postseason you often see bigger guards and both his offense and D suffers. VanVleet was equally useless last night.

Saw the 2nd half of Philly-Toronto last night and was really impressed how the Sixers have gelled. Seems like Embid and Simmons being up and down created the necessary space for Butler to become THE guy. He is now the straw that stirs that drink and like Boston they've been a 2018-19 sleeping giant in terms of upside.
 
Dogdeacon said:
He's a poor man's Harden, great regular season player - drops off a cliff every year in postseason. But he's first and foremost a great defender, so evaluating him purely on his offensive output isn't fair. Yet equally matchup wise in the postseason you often see bigger guards and both his offense and D suffers. VanVleet was equally useless last night.

Saw the 2nd half of Philly-Toronto last night and was really impressed how the Sixers have gelled. Seems like Embid and Simmons being up and down created the necessary space for Butler to become THE guy. He is now the straw that stirs that drink and like Boston they've been a 2018-19 sleeping giant in terms of upside.
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Really. Really, really poor man's Harden. I get your point how they both fall off during the playoffs but as a player Lowry should never be mentioned anywhere near Harden. They both play in the NBA and they both perform worse in the playoffs, their only similarities.

Lowry is alright on defense but certainly not good enough where it mitigates his no show on offense. Somehow this guy has been labeled a star in his career and that's a joke to me.
 
Playoffs are such a different animal. Talking heads seemed to be leaning towards prioritizing Harris over Butler just as recently as a month ago. There is no longer any debate on that. We see some of the same players year-to-year excelling in the regular season and slumping in the postseason. The mid-range jump shot is laughed at all regular season and then we see the best teams in the playoffs are those that can consistently create good looks regardless of whether they are from two or three.
 
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superjohn said:
Really. Really, really poor man's Harden. I get your point how they both fall off during the playoffs but as a player Lowry should never be mentioned anywhere near Harden. They both play in the NBA and they both perform worse in the playoffs, their only similarities.

Lowry is alright on defense but certainly not good enough where it mitigates his no show on offense. Somehow this guy has been labeled a star in his career and that's a joke to me.
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All true, he had 2 years of all-star quality play and stats, maybe 3rd team NBA-ish in 15-16, 16-17 and somehow, present company included we've collectively extended that to who he is. Turns out that was the anomaly and he's closer to his career averages 14ppg, 6 assist, 2.3 TO, 1.4 steals, 47% FG, 36% 3pt, yawn.
His playoff numbers are right there too, worse 3pt shooting otherwise spot on career average. Again you are right and we all need to throw out those two peak seasons from now on.
 
Not sure I’ve ever seen a player get a friendlier whistle than Giannis.

Which is crazy considering I’ve watched LeBron’s entire career.
 
UConn990411 said:
Not sure I’ve ever seen a player get a friendlier whistle than Giannis.

Which is crazy considering I’ve watched LeBron’s entire career.
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Manu Ginobili turning zero contact into acting like he was shot by a 50 cal....
 
UConn990411 said:
Not sure I’ve ever seen a player get a friendlier whistle than Giannis.

Which is crazy considering I’ve watched LeBron’s entire career.
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He is just really tough to officiate. In my opinion he could get more calls but is so big and strong that the refs swallow the whistle. Game one at least for sure. I just tuned in during the second quarter tonight so I may have missed some egregious calls.
 
Walker11 said:
He is just really tough to officiate. In my opinion he could get more calls but is so big and strong that the refs swallow the whistle. Game one at least for sure. I just tuned in during the second quarter tonight so I may have missed some egregious calls.
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He has as many free throw attempts as the entire Celtics team, and half of them came on gift calls. And that’s without mentioning how many egregious travels he gets away with, even by NBA standards.

I’m a much bigger NBA fan than college hoops fan these days, but the fact that certain stars play by a completely different set of rules cheapens things a bit.
 
UConn990411 said:
He has as many free throw attempts as the entire Celtics team, and half of them came on gift calls. And that’s without mentioning how many egregious travels he gets away with, even by NBA standards.

I’m a much bigger NBA fan than college hoops fan these days, but the fact that certain stars play by a completely different set of rules cheapens things a bit.
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Pointing out the free throw disparity is pointless without context. I've noticed 2 bad calls in favor of Giannis. The first was a 1v2 where Al clearly raked his arm but wasn't called and then they called a foul on Tatum's block which looked clean. The foul on Kyrie was bad on that and 1. So maybe 1 undeserved point from Giannis in a double digit game. The worst call was the delayed call on Brown for his 5th as that came during MIL's game changing run. But Boston just hasn't been good enough.
 
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