OT: NBA Offseason

[uconnbaseball]

Who wants to trade for Blake Griffin when Detroit inevitably collapses? Portland? Denver? Maybe Boston?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think it's really only Nelson who thinks they're going to suck. He also thinks Westbrook and Paul George are better than Lebron and AD, superstars are overrated, and a bunch of other crazy s***.

Do I need to relink last Summer's off-season thread? How did I do in that thread? How did you do?

 

[djct1999]

It seems weird that I even need to say this but the Lakers are going to be very good.

Whats good? Better than last year, but probably a 5-8th seed in the West, assuming full health. This roster can fall apart at the seams very quickly. They have an aging Lebron, overpaid for AD, have limited depth, and are weak at PG. How is that very good? They put all their eggs in the Kawhi basket and missed a great opportunity to really improve this roster. Now its full of band aids with Frank Vogel, good luck with that. My guess is that the Lakers will be a circus all year and whimper out of the playoffs in the first or second round.

 

[Walker11]

Whats good? Better than last year, but probably a 5-8th seed in the West, assuming full health. This roster can fall apart at the seams very quickly. They have an aging Lebron, overpaid for AD, have limited depth, and are weak at PG. How is that very good? They put all their eggs in the Kawhi basket and missed a great opportunity to really improve this roster. Now its full of band aids with Frank Vogel, good luck with that. My guess is that the Lakers will be a circus all year and whimper out of the playoffs in the first or second round.

There are two of them!

 

[djct1999]

There are two of them!

There sure is. Last I checked, the NBA is not 2 on 2. I just don't see this roster having enough to make a deep run in the west. What if one of the two gets hurt? Damn, what if one or both get in foul trouble?

 

[Walker11]

There sure is. Last I checked, the NBA is not 2 on 2. I just don't see this roster having enough to make a deep run in the west. What if one of the two gets hurt? Damn, what if one or both get in foul trouble?

Every contender would be in trouble if one of their primary guys got hurt. There are probably less than 10 players in the league who really move the needle and half of them have worst injury concerns than the Lakers stars.

Come playoff time, you need a solid 7 or 8 rotation. I don't predict them being the 1 seed but they look to be a beastly playoff team.

 

[djct1999]

Every contender would be in trouble if one of their primary guys got hurt. There are probably less than 10 players in the league who really move the needle and half of them have worst injury concerns than the Lakers stars.

Come playoff time, you need a solid 7 or 8 rotation. I don't predict them being the 1 seed but they look to be a beastly playoff team.

I don’t see it. I think Denver, Utah, Houston, the Clippers, Portland(maybe), and Golden State if Klay comes back to his old self all better.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I don’t see it. I think Denver, Utah, Houston, the Clippers, Portland(maybe), and Golden State if Klay comes back to his old self all better.

I think people who are doubting the Lakers are having trouble differentiating between regular season basketball and playoff basketball. Maybe the Lakers will have such a poor regular season that it'll tank their playoff chances, but come the playoffs, there is a ton of empirical evidence that you need studs to win and the Lakers have two of them.

Look at how well the Jazz did this year in the playoffs with their gang of good but not great role players. It's the same reason why I think the Celtics are pretty much doomed this year no matter what.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I think people who are doubting the Lakers are having trouble differentiating between regular season basketball and playoff basketball. Maybe the Lakers will have such a poor regular season that it'll tank their playoff chances, but come the playoffs, there is a ton of empirical evidence that you need studs to win and the Lakers have two of them.

Look at how well the Jazz did this year in the playoffs with their gang of good but not great role players. It's the same reason why I think the Celtics are pretty much doomed this year no matter what.

I mean yeah, used to be the last few years seeding would matter so that you could avoid GS for as much of the playoffs as possible. With the West being as open as it now is, seeding may not be quite so important

Bron ain’t 30 any more though

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think people who are doubting the Lakers are having trouble differentiating between regular season basketball and playoff basketball. Maybe the Lakers will have such a poor regular season that it'll tank their playoff chances, but come the playoffs, there is a ton of empirical evidence that you need studs to win and the Lakers have two of them.

Look at how well the Jazz did this year in the playoffs with their gang of good but not great role players. It's the same reason why I think the Celtics are pretty much doomed this year no matter what.

Didn't the Raptors just win an NBA Championship with just one allar? Why didn't the 76ers beat them? The Bucks have two all-stars, yet they lost to the Raptors too. According to most of this board, that is impossible.

A lot of the pro-Lakers posters act like every player can be ranked from 1 to whatever and if a team doesn't have 2 in the Top 10, then forget about winning a championship. There is a lot of evidence against that assessment. Force ranking the entire NBA is bound to be wildly inaccurate. I also think a lot of the players considered "superstars" reached that status as a result of significant self-promotion. Kyrie and AD are two that fall into this category.

Good teams win and some are star driven and some are ensembles, and there is no simple formula. The Raptors were just a really good team with complementary pieces that was a tough matchup for everyone they faced. I think the Pistons were as good a 2 man team as any in the NBA, but the rest of the team kind of sucked and they were an easy first round exit.

The Lakers are a mediocre team at best. There aren't enough ballhandlers, rebounders, or shooters. AD and LeBron will break down during the season because they will play too many minutes, and even if they make the playoffs, they are going to struggle. A team needs at least an 8 man rotation to make it through the playoffs, and the Lakers' 8 man rotation will not be good enough.

 

[johnhuskies95]

Didn't the Raptors just win an NBA Championship with just one allar? Why didn't the 76ers beat them? The Bucks have two all-stars, yet they lost to the Raptors too. According to most of this board, that is impossible.

A lot of the pro-Lakers posters act like every player can be ranked from 1 to whatever and if a team doesn't have 2 in the Top 10, then forget about winning a championship. There is a lot of evidence against that assessment. Force ranking the entire NBA is bound to be wildly inaccurate. I also think a lot of the players considered "superstars" reached that status as a result of significant self-promotion. Kyrie and AD are two that fall into this category.

Good teams win and some are star driven and some are ensembles, and there is no simple formula. The Raptors were just a really good team with complementary pieces that was a tough matchup for everyone they faced. I think the Pistons were as good a 2 man team as any in the NBA, but the rest of the team kind of sucked and they were an easy first round exit.

The Lakers are a mediocre team at best. There aren't enough ballhandlers, rebounders, or shooters. AD and LeBron will break down during the season because they will play too many minutes, and even if they make the playoffs, they are going to struggle. A team needs at least an 8 man rotation to make it through the playoffs, and the Lakers' 8 man rotation will not be good enough.

The Raptors had arguably the best two way player in the league and a 5 time All-Star at point guard. The role players helped, absolutely, but let's not kid ourselves about what was the difference in the playoffs.

I'd also love to know what type of "self-promotion" AD has engaged in. I don't even think Irving has done any of that either, but whatever.

 

[Walker11]

Didn't the Raptors just win an NBA Championship with just one allar? Why didn't the 76ers beat them? The Bucks have two all-stars, yet they lost to the Raptors too. According to most of this board, that is impossible.

A lot of the pro-Lakers posters act like every player can be ranked from 1 to whatever and if a team doesn't have 2 in the Top 10, then forget about winning a championship. There is a lot of evidence against that assessment. Force ranking the entire NBA is bound to be wildly inaccurate. I also think a lot of the players considered "superstars" reached that status as a result of significant self-promotion. Kyrie and AD are two that fall into this category.

Good teams win and some are star driven and some are ensembles, and there is no simple formula. The Raptors were just a really good team with complementary pieces that was a tough matchup for everyone they faced. I think the Pistons were as good a 2 man team as any in the NBA, but the rest of the team kind of sucked and they were an easy first round exit.

The Lakers are a mediocre team at best. There aren't enough ballhandlers, rebounders, or shooters. AD and LeBron will break down during the season because they will play too many minutes, and even if they make the playoffs, they are going to struggle. A team needs at least an 8 man rotation to make it through the playoffs, and the Lakers' 8 man rotation will not be good enough.

AD is a superstar. There are maybe 7 and he is one of them. I do think he moves the needle less than others as it is so hard to be the go to player in the crunch as a big. What you really need is a guy who can create in crunch time for himself or his teammates when the defense is wholly focused on them, often in ISO or pNr. There is one true ensemble champion in my lifetime and that was the Pistons. The Mavs are arguably another but Dirk was still solidly in the top 10 players in the world.

The Raptors were not an ensemble cast. Kawhi was the best player in the playoffs. He carried them the entire Philly series.

The Pistons do not have one of best duos. That is crazy talk. A lot of people in hoops media barely even consider Andre a net positive player for a variety of reasons. I do disagree with that but I certainly wouldn't claim him and Blake are best the top of duos. Him and Blake are not complementary - LeBron and AD couldn't be more complementary.

I do respect the fact that you clearly watch a lot of games and think for yourself instead of regurgitating consensus opinions but I so strongly disagree with all of this post. It will be fun to watch everything play out.

 

[Walker11]

The Raptors had arguably the best two way player in the league and a 5 time All-Star at point guard. The role players helped, absolutely, but let's not kid ourselves about what was the difference in the playoffs.

I'd also love to know what type of "self-promotion" AD has engaged in. I don't even think Irving has done any of that either, but whatever.

I mean Irving was the star of of his own movie and has the most popular shoe for young kids but he is far off on AD.

 

[uconnbaseball]

@Walker11

Curry, James, Jokic, George, Embiid, Giannis, Leonard, Lillard, and Harden are all more accomplished than Davis. Davis is a borderline top 10 player IMO.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I mean Irving was the star of of his own movie and has the most popular shoe for young kids but he is far off on AD.

AD and Kyrie don't have a lot of winning to show for their greatness. Kyrie teams seem to perform better when he is out, and AD has made the playoffs twice in his career.

They are good players, but people on this board act like they are a different species.

 

[Rocktheworld]

AD and Kyrie don't have a lot of winning to show for their greatness. Kyrie teams seem to perform better when he is out, and AD has made the playoffs twice in his career.

They are good players, but people on this board act like they are a different species.

So it should mean nothing to you that Kawhi, PG (who has won nothing and at best watched Roy Hibbert give Bron a challenge), and Patrick Beverly are teaming up to wreck the West.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

AD is a superstar. There are maybe 7 and he is one of them. I do think he moves the needle less than others as it is so hard to be the go to player in the crunch as a big. What you really need is a guy who can create in crunch time for himself or his teammates when the defense is wholly focused on them, often in ISO or pNr. There is one true ensemble champion in my lifetime and that was the Pistons. The Mavs are arguably another but Dirk was still solidly in the top 10 players in the world.

The Raptors were not an ensemble cast. Kawhi was the best player in the playoffs. He carried them the entire Philly series.

The Pistons do not have one of best duos. That is crazy talk. A lot of people in hoops media barely even consider Andre a net positive player for a variety of reasons. I do disagree with that but I certainly wouldn't claim him and Blake are best the top of duos. Him and Blake are not complementary - LeBron and AD couldn't be more complementary.

I do respect the fact that you clearly watch a lot of games and think for yourself instead of regurgitating consensus opinions but I so strongly disagree with all of this post. It will be fun to watch everything play out.

The Raptors don't get past Philly without Gasol. He had a huge impact on that team. Siakum and Vanvleet were critical too. It was a team effort.

 

[johnhuskies95]

@Walker11

Curry, James, Jokic, George, Embiid, Giannis, Leonard, Lillard, and Harden are all more accomplished than Davis. Davis is a borderline top 10 player IMO.

Jokic is more accomplished than Anthony Davis? That's enough internet for me today.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Jokic is more accomplished than Anthony Davis? That's enough internet for me today.

Seriously even Skip Bayless wouldn’t try to argue that

 

[Walker11]

AD and Kyrie don't have a lot of winning to show for their greatness. Kyrie teams seem to perform better when he is out, and AD has made the playoffs twice in his career.

They are good players, but people on this board act like they are a different species.

Irving isn't on that level. No doubt. And AD isn't dynamic enough to be the go to scorer on a champion team. He is just an incredible all around player.

 

[bazz&boujee]

I don’t see it. I think Denver, Utah, Houston, the Clippers, Portland(maybe), and Golden State if Klay comes back to his old self all better.

let me know when denver, portland, or utah ever win a game outside of the second round. i’ll wait.

 

[uconnbaseball]

Jokic is more accomplished than Anthony Davis? That's enough internet for me today.

In Jokic's first playoff run, he led his team to more playoff games than AD has in any season his entire career.

I guess if you are a PPG guy you can make an argument for Davis, but all other metrics point towards Jokic. Even his defense was good in the playoffs; he held two offensively gifted centers in Aldridge and Kanter to below their scoring averages.

 

[superjohn]

Do I need to relink last Summer's off-season thread? How did I do in that thread? How did you do?

You provide good comedy. Let's pretend the Raps and the Bucks were the same before the season and let's pretend the Clips, Lakers, and every other team are the same as they were a month or two ago.

Keep doing what you're doing here.

 

[superjohn]

Every contender would be in trouble if one of their primary guys got hurt. There are probably less than 10 players in the league who really move the needle and half of them have worst injury concerns than the Lakers stars.

Come playoff time, you need a solid 7 or 8 rotation. I don't predict them being the 1 seed but they look to be a beastly playoff team.

What happens if Tom Brady shatters his knee cap, what happens if Bill Belichick dies of a heart attack, sorry...

I'll keep it on subject. What happens if Durant blows out his Achilles? The Warriors still make the finals. What happens if Klay Thompson blows out his knee? They lose the finals. What happens if Durant and Klay are healthy? They win. What happens if no Durant and Klay doesn't blow out his knee? 50/50.

 

[djct1999]

What happens if Tom Brady shatters his knee cap, what happens if Bill Belichick dies of a heart attack, sorry...

I'll keep it on subject. What happens if Durant blows out his Achilles? The Warriors still make the finals. What happens if Klay Thompson blows out his knee? They lose the finals. What happens if Durant and Klay are healthy? They win. What happens if no Durant and Klay doesn't blow out his knee? 50/50.

AD played 56 games this past year, Lebron played 55. In 7 seasons, AD has missed 15+ games in 5 of them. Do you see the pattern or are you again going to ignore the facts to help your argument?

 

[djct1999]

Every contender would be in trouble if one of their primary guys got hurt. There are probably less than 10 players in the league who really move the needle and half of them have worst injury concerns than the Lakers stars.

Come playoff time, you need a solid 7 or 8 rotation. I don't predict them being the 1 seed but they look to be a beastly playoff team.

No one plays just 7 if you go deep. So who are the Lakers 8? What stars in the West have more injury concerns than AD?

Then you dig deeper and see the injury history of Rondo and Cousins. So 3 of the 8 are consistently hurt and Lebron at age 35 is a wildcard. Good luck with that roster.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

So it should mean nothing to you that Kawhi, PG (who has won nothing and at best watched Roy Hibbert give Bron a challenge), and Patrick Beverly are teaming up to wreck the West.

You mean the Clippers team that took 2 from the Warriors without an all-star? I would say that team is already pretty solid before Kawhi and Paul George.

It's interesting that so many of you think that the bench is irrelevant and only the number of all stars matter, yet when Kawhi had to choose a team, he was only seriously talking to the Clippers and Raptors, who both go deep with good players, and wanted to play with Paul George, not LeBron or AD. I guess a lot of Boneyard posters are better talent evaluators than Kawhi.

 

[djct1999]

You mean the Clippers team that took 2 from the Warriors without an all-star? I would say that team is already pretty solid before Kawhi and Paul George.

It's interesting that so many of you think that the bench is irrelevant and only the number of all stars matter, yet when Kawhi had to choose a team, he was only seriously talking to the Clippers and Raptors, who both go deep with good players, and wanted to play with Paul George, not LeBron or AD. I guess a lot of Boneyard posters are better talent evaluators than Kawhi.

Not just Kawhi. No top or even mid tier free agent wanted to go. There was a reason for that.

 

[superjohn]

"The Pistons were as good as any two man team in the NBA." @Walker11 I applaud you for your detailed responses but man you're wasting your time.

There is way too much crazy to wade through...

 

[nelsonmuntz]

AD is a superstar. There are maybe 7 and he is one of them. I do think he moves the needle less than others as it is so hard to be the go to player in the crunch as a big. What you really need is a guy who can create in crunch time for himself or his teammates when the defense is wholly focused on them, often in ISO or pNr. There is one true ensemble champion in my lifetime and that was the Pistons. The Mavs are arguably another but Dirk was still solidly in the top 10 players in the world.

The Raptors were not an ensemble cast. Kawhi was the best player in the playoffs. He carried them the entire Philly series.

The Pistons do not have one of best duos. That is crazy talk. A lot of people in hoops media barely even consider Andre a net positive player for a variety of reasons. I do disagree with that but I certainly wouldn't claim him and Blake are best the top of duos. Him and Blake are not complementary - LeBron and AD couldn't be more complementary.

I do respect the fact that you clearly watch a lot of games and think for yourself instead of regurgitating consensus opinions but I so strongly disagree with all of this post. It will be fun to watch everything play out.

First, the Pistons. After Griffin and Drummond, that team is terrible, yet it made the playoffs. Put another way, there is not a single player on last year's Pistons, after Blake and Drummond, that would make the 10 man rotation for the Bucks. Props have to be given to Griffin and Drummond for winning with that supporting cast. But if they could do it, how come AD and Lebron couldn't, even though both had some decent talent around them (Jrue Holliday, Lonzo, Ingram)? Could it be that the superstar ranking is a little off?

A good coach can design a system to make almost any two players complementary unless one of them doesn't want to be.

You are changing my point about superstars. Dirk was definitely a superstar when he won, but he was the only one on that team. The rest of it was role players and over the hill ex-all stars like Kidd. Even LeBron's Cleveland team had JR Smith near his prime and a good defensive center in Tristan Thompson, plus Dellavadova and Korver banging 3's. I also think some people are forgetting how good Kevin Love was before his body broke down.