OT: Landon Donovan

[Matrim55]

I look at a team like Australia, whose pickup of Guus Hiddink completely altered/enhanced the play of their national team, and took them from a non qualifier to dangerous. Should have been in the quarter finals in 2006 (if not for an Italian jobbing).

That's the kind of injection I'm looking for. I don't know if JK is the guy, but we need some of that.

How is that different than the US team under Arena in 2002 that was jobbed out of a trip to the semifinals?

This inferiority complex among US soccer fans is maddening. I work in the sport for a living, have connections across the globe and talk daily with people who really, really know the game. As many of them have American accents as don't.

It's not going to matter in this World Cup anyway. Whether LD is on this roster or not doesn't seem to make much of a difference imo. If we get a win against Ghana, I'll be happy (and I'm generally positive RE my rooting interests).

Such bullshit. This is the same stuff that was written before 02 and 94.

Germany is not as good as they were four years ago, and are awful in heat. Portugal is worse than they were in 02, and are just as bad. European teams almost always underachieve outside of Europe (South Africa 2010 was an exception, and if you want to know why it won't be repeated in Brazil just look up the relative heat and humidity), and there is no reason - none - this US team couldn't have gotten a pair of results from those games.

 

[Fishy]

America doesn't use all ten toes in soccer.

We're like six toes in on a good day.

That's a problem.

 

[CallMeBruce]

This was clearly personal between Klinsmann and Donovan. You tell me that it's about having enough pace on the wings, and then you bring Brad Davis? Donovan, at his slowest, can run circles around Davis. You say it's about commitment to the team, and you bring Chandler? Over the last 12 months, Donovan has been one of the most productive US players (7 goals, 8 assists). He had one mediocre friendly against Mexico and he catches some hardwood in the first couple of weeks of MLS, and he's out of the 23? There's no way this team is better off without him right now.

After it was announced, Klinsmann's son taunted Donovan on Twitter. This is about Donovan taking too much of the attention that Klinsmann wants for himself. I'm wondering if Klinsmann was worried that Donovan might bury a couple against Azerbaijan, and then he wouldn't be able to cut him.

 

[BLUEDOGHOUSE]

You don't need him for 90 - 15 at most. He knows how to find the back of the net and has the history to back it up. This is what happens when as a "federation" you try to attract an international coach who uses his position to punish players who may have spurned offers in the past. JK is using the experience to find talented young Americans to play in the BL. I for one along with many other longtime soccer coaches have expressed concern on naming JK as the national coach - the US is full of coaches capable of leading the team. It's difficult to bring the german style of play and translate it to those who do not play tactically in that mindset. It's an inherited style much like forcing a 1990's Red Sox team to become a spray hitting base stealing club. JK is a great soccer person but not ideal for the national team, in my opinion.
In the end, I hope he proves me wrong!!!!

Do you think Belgium can win the World Cup??? I like their draw.

 

[Mots010]

It's certainly an odd decision. There has to be something going on behind the scenes. Hard to believe LD is not one of the best 23, especially considering his experience and results in the clutch. I dont think LD's 'sabbatical' sat well with Klinsmann, and I'd be curious what other national team players thought of it as well.

Then he showed up out of shape to the Mexico friendly, and his poor run of form in MLS was the last straw. It was almost like he was daring Klinsmann to cut him.

USA posted one of its best Hex results ever, with Donovan returning when it was all but sewed up, so I think they can move on without him. With all that said, I think you have to find a spot for him. If its the 70th minute in the Germany game and we need a goal to advance, he's the guy I'd want on the field, even if just a sub.

 

[CallMeBruce]

It's certainly an odd decision. There has to be something going on behind the scenes. Hard to believe LD is not one of the best 23, especially considering his experience and results in the clutch. I dont think LD's 'sabbatical' sat well with Klinsmann, and I'd be curious what other national team players thought of it as well.

Then he showed up out of shape to the Mexico friendly, and his poor run of form in MLS was the last straw. It was almost like he was daring Klinsmann to cut him.

USA posted one of its best Hex results ever, with Donovan returning when it was all but sewed up, so I think they can move on without him. With all that said, I think you have to find a spot for him. If its the 70th minute in the Germany game and we need a goal to advance, he's the guy I'd want on the field, even if just a sub.

Given this: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-account-after-tweeting-about-landon-donovan

It's pretty clear there's something behind the scenes.

Over the last 12 months, he's arguably been the most productive player in a US uniform. He's certainly better than Brad Davis and Julian Green.

 

[partial]

It's pretty weird and a bit sad this might be his last world cup.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

It's pretty weird and a bit sad this might be his last world cup.

No "might" in question. Donovan's played his last World Cup game!

 

[CallMeBruce]

It's pretty weird and a bit sad this might be his last world cup.

What's sad is that we're finding out now that 2010 was his last world cup. Unless someone gets hurt (and even then, I'm not sure than Klinsmann can call Donovan in without a huge shitstorm), Donovan is off the roster for Brazil.

 

[intlzncster]

Such bull . This is the same stuff that was written before 02 and 94.
Germany is not as good as they were four years ago, and are awful in heat. Portugal is worse than they were in 02, and are just as bad. European teams almost always underachieve outside of Europe (South Africa 2010 was an exception, and if you want to know why it won't be repeated in Brazil just look up the relative heat and humidity), and there is no reason - none - this US team couldn't have gotten a pair of results from those games.

Ok, we'll revisit this conversation after the Cup. The results will ultimately speak for themselves. I will be happy (in more ways than one) to show up and admit I was wrong.

We have an inferiority complex because we are inferior. The simple facts are: The US hasn't reached the top 4 since 1930. Germany and Portugal may not be as good, but they are still 2/3 respectively in the world. The change in relative difference between the US and both of those two squads from then to now is marginal. In the 19 WC since 1930, European teams have won it 10 times. And that includes Brazil taking 5 of the others. If they don't win this one with a massive home soil advantage, I'll be surprised.

And it's not like the US is some magical hot weather team either, although we do have much more experience with it. If we use hot weather, Ghana should have the advantage over the US.

For the third time, I'd have had Donovan on the team. But I don't think not having a couple of aging, non 90m players, on the roster is killer. Given the heat, you'd expect the older guys to be even less effective and play even less minutes.

I think long term, because that's where US soccer's success, if there is to be any, will be found. Our future is in Julian Green, not Landon Donovan.

Some of this is being devil's advocate.

 

[intlzncster]

This was clearly personal between Klinsmann and Donovan. You tell me that it's about having enough pace on the wings, and then you bring Brad Davis? Donovan, at his slowest, can run circles around Davis. You say it's about commitment to the team, and you bring Chandler? Over the last 12 months, Donovan has been one of the most productive US players (7 goals, 8 assists). He had one mediocre friendly against Mexico and he catches some hardwood in the first couple of weeks of MLS, and he's out of the 23? There's no way this team is better off without him right now.

After it was announced, Klinsmann's son taunted Donovan on Twitter. This is about Donovan taking too much of the attention that Klinsmann wants for himself. I'm wondering if Klinsmann was worried that Donovan might bury a couple against Azerbaijan, and then he wouldn't be able to cut him.

Klinsmann considers Donovan, at this stage in his career, to be a forward only. I can't say that he's wrong there at the top level. Now you can debate that delineation, and I wouldn't argue. Obviously Davis is a wing.

Klinsmann considers him only a forward, so his competition for spots was: Jozy Altidore, Clint Dempsey, Aron Johannsson and Chris Wondolowski.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Klinsmann considers Donovan, at this stage in his career, to be a forward only. I can't say that he's wrong there at the top level. Now you can debate that delineation, and I wouldn't argue. Obviously Davis is a wing.

Klinsmann considers him only a forward, so his competition for spots was: Jozy Altidore, Clint Dempsey, Aron Johannsson and Chris Wondolowski.

Well, ignoring the fact that he's clearly still better than Wondolowski, and than Johannsson hasn't been particularly productive in a couple of months, Donovan is a better wing than Davis. He's faster, he's a better defender, and unlike Davis, he has more than one skill. If either Davis or Green starts at the WC, they'll get absolutely worked, and neither brings what Donovan can as a sub. This idea that because Klinsmann has decreed that Donovan is a forward only, that means it makes sense to bring Brad Davis to the World Cup, is indefensible. There is no time during an international soccer match that I'd rather have Davis on the field than Donovan.

 

[bobbygt]

would love to hear this argument.

It's pretty obvious when you watch the games. Sure he had a tough time out the last few games, but watch the highlights from the Gold Cup just last year. He does things that nobody, including Bradley (who I think is more important to the team than Donovan and just as good) can do.

 

[ZooCougar]

You don't need him for 90 - 15 at most. He knows how to find the back of the net and has the history to back it up. This is what happens when as a "federation" you try to attract an international coach who uses his position to punish players who may have spurned offers in the past. JK is using the experience to find talented young Americans to play in the BL. I for one along with many other longtime soccer coaches have expressed concern on naming JK as the national coach - the US is full of coaches capable of leading the team. It's difficult to bring the german style of play and translate it to those who do not play tactically in that mindset. It's an inherited style much like forcing a 1990's Red Sox team to become a spray hitting base stealing club. JK is a great soccer person but not ideal for the national team, in my opinion.
In the end, I hope he proves me wrong!!!!

I don't believe JK is here on some sort of Bundesliga Scouting mission. When he was hired I was living in Germany and I asked my German friends why he was fired from his old job, and they stated that it was basically Munich politics that forced him out.

It's hilarious because when he was the German national team coach, he was criticized for being too American. Over here it's vice versa.

And a bunch of American Soccer coaches don't like a non American being hired? Wow, there is a surprise. That's sounds like CT HS Football Coaches rallying to get Pasqualoni hired. No thanks.

Soccer is international, and lots of big countries hire from the outside. People need to learn to step out of the box.

 

[bobbygt]

He's not.

Bradley is the clear #1
Howard is the clear #2
Dempsey is the clear #3
Donovan is #4 just ahead of Zusi, Altidore, Johnson, Besler, and Jones

.

Of course Howard is in a difference category and untouchable. I won't argue with Bradley, since I think he's easily the most important player on the team besides Howard, but I can't put Dempsey, nor anybody else above Donovan. I think the US needs a player like Dempsey, who's fearless and brings a Don't Mess with Nacogdoches attitude out there, but in watching the past few games he just seems to do much less than people give him credit for.

 

[Nuttersworth]

Matrim55, I am curious as to your work within the sport and its connections, because everything you said is wrong.

We're a nation of immigrants, we should expect our national team to illustrate that. Look at the '94 team and its ethnicities. And the fact is that our German contingency is flat out better than some of its American counterparts. I for one would have liked to see Boyd over Wondo. Klinnsman did the same thing when he coached Die Mannschaft, bringing in the likes of Podlolski (Polish) and Schweinsteiger, who at that time were 20-22, I think.

I hate to say it, but anyone that says Donovan would have been a key player in this WC doesn't watch much soccer. Nothing wrong with that, but don't come out of the woodwork crying for Donovan when you haven't seen his body of work in comparison to other players.

The MLS and its talent development model will continue to be inferior until decisions at the top are made with unilateral influence, all the way down to the youth level. Its starting to trend that way, but its not enough. I like the concept JK seems to have established... which is to field a young, exciting, fit side that will at least try to possess. Hopefully the MLS takes note and plays more. If it doesn't work this cycle, it will only benefit the next. The results may not be there this year, but this team will come out and attack and ask questions, as opposed to Bradley/Arena teams, which relied on counter attack ball. I have a feeling amateur soccer fans who couldn't name 10 teams in Europe will t turn up their nose at the lack of results, but you need to think big picture. Grantland put out an article a few days ago that highlighted it perfectly; Donovan is part of the generation that helped put soccer on the map in the US, and will forever be appropriately lauded for it. The next generation is the one that takes the next step toward actual football.

Watch any MLS game and so much of it is dull and blunt direct soccer. JK was brought in to change that dynamic, starting with the USMNT.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

It's pretty obvious when you watch the games. Sure he had a tough time out the last few games, but watch the highlights from the Gold Cup just last year. He does things that nobody, including Bradley (who I think is more important to the team than Donovan and just as good) can do.

Klinsmann has said literally dozens of times that it's not what you did a year ago, or even six months ago, it's where you're at today. For whoever mentioned Wondolowski, I don't think anyone who's paying attention would say that Donovan is in better form than Wondolowski is right now. Not even close. Donovan basically admitted as much the other day.

I like the fact that a roster decision on the USMNT can prompt this kind of discussion on a college basketball board though, but I still think the US is going to be lucky if they take a point from the Ghana match. I think the "this is the year" crowd probably needs to keep it in check a bit.

 

[Matrim55]

Matrim55, I am curious as to your work within the sport and its connections, because everything you said is wrong.

**snip**

You just spouted the basest, most thoughtless and banal conventional wisdom out there. Congratulations on being entirely unable to process information at all critically.

FWIW, I have no issue with any coach, foreign or domestic, who does a good job. I do have an issue with folks who think a coach has to have a European (or South American) accent to do a good job. It's this kind of bullshit that has our youth coaching ranks filled with failed Brits who don't know the first thing about rondos, third-line passing drills and other relatively basic ball control techniques.

Are there great foreign coaches in the US? Absolutely - the smartest one I know is Basque, a former youth director with Bilbao. He's great, and has been a true asset for me and US soccer as a whole. If I was starting a club tomorrow, he'd be my first hire.

But he's not a great coach because he's Basque; he's a great coach and developer of talent because he's a great coach and developer of talent. The same goes for the literally dozens of Americans throughout the US soccer (and the Canadians I've worked with as well).

Klinsmann is not a great coach. Lahm justifiably ripped him after the Bayern Munich stint, and there's a reason Sunil didn't have to fight off any other big clubs for the guy's signature. His team has less tactical identity or nuance than either of his predecessors', and he has now prioritized a German 4th division player over the most productive USMNT attacker of both all-time and the past year.

Here's one of those blunt MLS goals, btw:



Here's another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xq1BPww174

Here's a third:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQn9eXC0lkc

Those are all just from last week.

 

[mike1989]

my take:
Klinsmann!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BAAAAAAAAAAD move leaving donovan off the team.

 

[intlzncster]

Well, ignoring the fact that he's clearly still better than Wondolowski, and than Johannsson hasn't been particularly productive in a couple of months, Donovan is a better wing than Davis. He's faster, he's a better defender, and unlike Davis, he has more than one skill. If either Davis or Green starts at the WC, they'll get absolutely worked, and neither brings what Donovan can as a sub. This idea that because Klinsmann has decreed that Donovan is a forward only, that means it makes sense to bring Brad Davis to the World Cup, is indefensible.

Well it's not indefensible, it's the way it is. Whether JK is right or not, is certainly up for debate (which is the point you were trying to make anyway). Carry on.

Wondo made the squad on the strength of scoring a shit ton of goals.

Wondolowski was a hero of the U.S.'s triumph in last summer's Gold Cup with five goals in the first two games. He also scored twice in a friendly against South Korea in February, and once against Mexico in April. He has five goals in nine games for the San Jose Earthquakes so far this season.

Hard to leave him off with that kind of production.

 

[SubbaBub]

Of course Howard is in a difference category and untouchable. I won't argue with Bradley, since I think he's easily the most important player on the team besides Howard, but I can't put Dempsey, nor anybody else above Donovan. I think the US needs a player like Dempsey, who's fearless and brings a Don't Mess with Nacogdoches attitude out there, but in watching the past few games he just seems to do much less than people give him credit for.

2010 I'd agree, but I've watched enough of both to see that LD's drop in pace has exposed some of his flaws. He's not the best ball handler and his first touch was never what you'd expect from a player of his class. But, he still has the best vision on the team and is one of the two best passers.

Saying Davis is a better free kick taker than LD doesn't move the needle for me. LD had taken every meaningful one since 2002.

Right now, Dempsey is the better player but I've always contended that we needed the big 3 + Howard to play well in order to advance.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't believe JK is here on some sort of Bundesliga Scouting mission. When he was hired I was living in Germany and I asked my German friends why he was fired from his old job, and they stated that it was basically Munich politics that forced him out.

It's hilarious because when he was the German national team coach, he was criticized for being too American. Over here it's vice versa.

And a bunch of American Soccer coaches don't like a non American being hired? Wow, there is a surprise. That's sounds like CT HS Football Coaches rallying to get Pasqualoni hired. No thanks.

Soccer is international, and lots of big countries hire from the outside. People need to learn to step out of the box.

Bang on. Great post.

 

[Matrim55]

For the record: I know my tone here is harsh, and strident. But imagine how you'd feel if you heard "UConn will never be great until we hire a coach from Kentucky or UNC."

That's how I feel about "The US needs to have a foreign coach to get us to play real soccer."

It is a lazy narrative, and disrespectful to guys who have achieved so, so much, and are building to greater things for both club and country.

 

[intlzncster]

Klinsmann has said literally dozens of times that it's not what you did a year ago, or even six months ago, it's where you're at today. For whoever mentioned Wondolowski, I don't think anyone who's paying attention would say that Donovan is in better form than Wondolowski is right now. Not even close. Donovan basically admitted as much the other day.

I like the fact that a roster decision on the USMNT can prompt this kind of discussion on a college basketball board though, but I still think the US is going to be lucky if they take a point from the Ghana match. I think the "this is the year" crowd probably needs to keep it in check a bit.

Spot on. Though I'd say that Wondo has scored so many goals going back to last summer to warrant a selection based on that alone. But your point stands.

 

[intlzncster]

For the record: I know my tone here is harsh, and strident. But imagine how you'd feel if you heard "UConn will never be great until we hire a coach from Kentucky or UNC."

That's how I feel about "The US needs to have a foreign coach to get us to play real soccer."

It is a lazy narrative, and disrespectful to guys who have achieved so, so much, and are building to greater things for both club and country.

If it gets to the point that a lot of American coaches are brought to Europe and South America to head up those squads (speaking more in league terms here), then I'd jump on board with you. Although I will admit that there is enormous amount of nepotism and xenophobia in soccer, so that complicates matters. But that exists in the US game too.

I like that we are trying different things by hiring a coach outside the system. I think that kind of change and challenging of preconceived ways of doing/thinking is healthy from a growth perspective. Ultimately, you are absolutely correct that a good coach is a good coach no matter the nationality or color of his skin.

We can't pretend that the US knows exactly what it is doing soccer wise, though it has made big strides. We are such a young soccer playing nation (from a national organization, structural and competitive standpoint), that we should take all the help we can get. Can't be too proud. "That's pride fuking with you. pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that ." I always loved that monologue, so I couldn't help posting it.

I'm not ready to declare JK the wrong guy for the USMNT for a few years yet. It won't be decided by this world cup at any rate. He's done well so far.

 

[Mots010]

One thing I'd argue is that in the last year and a half, I've seen some of the finest looking play from the USMNT ever, and the results to back it up. Much of that without Donovan.

 

[intlzncster]

Here's one of those blunt MLS goals, btw:

So are we going to get Fagundez or what? Would sting to lose him to Uruguay? Have to keep our guys home. I know he's going after US Citizenship, and mentioned the USMNT, but if things stall or he decides to pull a switcheroo, I'll be pissed.

 

[Nuttersworth]

Don't mind your tone at all, and agree with parts of your analysis Matrim. Yes, our ranks are filled with failed Brits riding their accent through our system. But on the other side of the coin, they bring a culture and appreciation of the sport that isn't inherent in MOST Americans. That is always welcome, considering how the game is still considered second tier. You can throw out fancy names for drills all you want, but if you 'think critically' and trace the origins of these drills, they came from European youth systems.

And in no way did I say or mean to say that a European has a better pedigree than an American just by simply being European. Myself and our goalkeeper played for four months in France for a Tier 3 team and found the competition on par with that of low level d1 and high level d2 and d3. But you are looking through soccer in the US with rose colored tints if you think that we haven't benefited from their influence.

JK didn't do a great job at Bayern, and I disagreed with a lot of his tactics then, but club is an entirely different beast than country. He wasn't courted by others because frankly, what positions were available that were as lucrative as ours?

And those goals are decent. Of course. And the league is improving, of course. But how many of those three goals scored were by an American? (aside: I like Bunbury a lot and wish he got more of a look)

EDIT: I forgot to acknowledge the Hispanic element in our development as well. They contributed as much as Europeans.

 

[Matrim55]

One thing I'd argue is that in the last year and a half, I've seen some of the finest looking play from the USMNT ever, and the results to back it up. Much of that without Donovan.

Over the past year, we average 2.2 goals per game when he plays and 1.4 when he doesn't. He is second on the USMNT in goals and first in assists over that time.

Over his last eight starts, he has 4 goals and 8 assists. Five of those eight games were against teams that qualified for Brazil; the others were against a Panama team that almost made it, a decent Jamaica team and El Salvador. We are 7-0-1 in those games.

In his most recent start, against Brazil-bound South Korea, he wore the captain's armband and got the game-winning assist.

So are we going to get Fagundez or what? Would sting to lose him to Uruguay? Have to keep our guys home. I know he's going after US Citizenship, and mentioned the USMNT, but if things stall or he decides to pull a switcheroo, I'll be pissed.

He's years away from citizenship, since he was an illegal alien when he came here. The Revs had to jump through hoops just to keep him here. Only way we get him is if Uruguay says no thanks.

Nagbe is close - this winter I think. Zelalem could be announced any day now. Kekuta Manneh is, like Fagundez, years away.

Regardless, our future is incredibly bright. MLS academies are starting to churn out a ton of attacking talent.

 

[UConnDan97]

Over the past year, we average 2.2 goals per game when he plays and 1.4 when he doesn't. He is second on the USMNT in goals and first in assists over that time.

Over his last eight starts, he has 4 goals and 8 assists. Five of those eight games were against teams that qualified for Brazil; the others were against a Panama team that almost made it, a decent Jamaica team and El Salvador. We are 7-0-1 in those games.

In his most recent start, against Brazil-bound South Korea, he wore the captain's armband and got the game-winning assist.

^^^ This!