OT: Landon Donovan

[SubbaBub]

Of course Howard is in a difference category and untouchable. I won't argue with Bradley, since I think he's easily the most important player on the team besides Howard, but I can't put Dempsey, nor anybody else above Donovan. I think the US needs a player like Dempsey, who's fearless and brings a Don't Mess with Nacogdoches attitude out there, but in watching the past few games he just seems to do much less than people give him credit for.

2010 I'd agree, but I've watched enough of both to see that LD's drop in pace has exposed some of his flaws. He's not the best ball handler and his first touch was never what you'd expect from a player of his class. But, he still has the best vision on the team and is one of the two best passers.

Saying Davis is a better free kick taker than LD doesn't move the needle for me. LD had taken every meaningful one since 2002.

Right now, Dempsey is the better player but I've always contended that we needed the big 3 + Howard to play well in order to advance.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't believe JK is here on some sort of Bundesliga Scouting mission. When he was hired I was living in Germany and I asked my German friends why he was fired from his old job, and they stated that it was basically Munich politics that forced him out.

It's hilarious because when he was the German national team coach, he was criticized for being too American. Over here it's vice versa.

And a bunch of American Soccer coaches don't like a non American being hired? Wow, there is a surprise. That's sounds like CT HS Football Coaches rallying to get Pasqualoni hired. No thanks.

Soccer is international, and lots of big countries hire from the outside. People need to learn to step out of the box.

Bang on. Great post.

 

[Matrim55]

For the record: I know my tone here is harsh, and strident. But imagine how you'd feel if you heard "UConn will never be great until we hire a coach from Kentucky or UNC."

That's how I feel about "The US needs to have a foreign coach to get us to play real soccer."

It is a lazy narrative, and disrespectful to guys who have achieved so, so much, and are building to greater things for both club and country.

 

[intlzncster]

Klinsmann has said literally dozens of times that it's not what you did a year ago, or even six months ago, it's where you're at today. For whoever mentioned Wondolowski, I don't think anyone who's paying attention would say that Donovan is in better form than Wondolowski is right now. Not even close. Donovan basically admitted as much the other day.

I like the fact that a roster decision on the USMNT can prompt this kind of discussion on a college basketball board though, but I still think the US is going to be lucky if they take a point from the Ghana match. I think the "this is the year" crowd probably needs to keep it in check a bit.

Spot on. Though I'd say that Wondo has scored so many goals going back to last summer to warrant a selection based on that alone. But your point stands.

 

[intlzncster]

For the record: I know my tone here is harsh, and strident. But imagine how you'd feel if you heard "UConn will never be great until we hire a coach from Kentucky or UNC."

That's how I feel about "The US needs to have a foreign coach to get us to play real soccer."

It is a lazy narrative, and disrespectful to guys who have achieved so, so much, and are building to greater things for both club and country.

If it gets to the point that a lot of American coaches are brought to Europe and South America to head up those squads (speaking more in league terms here), then I'd jump on board with you. Although I will admit that there is enormous amount of nepotism and xenophobia in soccer, so that complicates matters. But that exists in the US game too.

I like that we are trying different things by hiring a coach outside the system. I think that kind of change and challenging of preconceived ways of doing/thinking is healthy from a growth perspective. Ultimately, you are absolutely correct that a good coach is a good coach no matter the nationality or color of his skin.

We can't pretend that the US knows exactly what it is doing soccer wise, though it has made big strides. We are such a young soccer playing nation (from a national organization, structural and competitive standpoint), that we should take all the help we can get. Can't be too proud. "That's pride fuking with you. pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that ." I always loved that monologue, so I couldn't help posting it.

I'm not ready to declare JK the wrong guy for the USMNT for a few years yet. It won't be decided by this world cup at any rate. He's done well so far.

 

[Mots010]

One thing I'd argue is that in the last year and a half, I've seen some of the finest looking play from the USMNT ever, and the results to back it up. Much of that without Donovan.

 

[intlzncster]

Here's one of those blunt MLS goals, btw:

So are we going to get Fagundez or what? Would sting to lose him to Uruguay? Have to keep our guys home. I know he's going after US Citizenship, and mentioned the USMNT, but if things stall or he decides to pull a switcheroo, I'll be pissed.

 

[Nuttersworth]

Don't mind your tone at all, and agree with parts of your analysis Matrim. Yes, our ranks are filled with failed Brits riding their accent through our system. But on the other side of the coin, they bring a culture and appreciation of the sport that isn't inherent in MOST Americans. That is always welcome, considering how the game is still considered second tier. You can throw out fancy names for drills all you want, but if you 'think critically' and trace the origins of these drills, they came from European youth systems.

And in no way did I say or mean to say that a European has a better pedigree than an American just by simply being European. Myself and our goalkeeper played for four months in France for a Tier 3 team and found the competition on par with that of low level d1 and high level d2 and d3. But you are looking through soccer in the US with rose colored tints if you think that we haven't benefited from their influence.

JK didn't do a great job at Bayern, and I disagreed with a lot of his tactics then, but club is an entirely different beast than country. He wasn't courted by others because frankly, what positions were available that were as lucrative as ours?

And those goals are decent. Of course. And the league is improving, of course. But how many of those three goals scored were by an American? (aside: I like Bunbury a lot and wish he got more of a look)

EDIT: I forgot to acknowledge the Hispanic element in our development as well. They contributed as much as Europeans.

 

[Matrim55]

One thing I'd argue is that in the last year and a half, I've seen some of the finest looking play from the USMNT ever, and the results to back it up. Much of that without Donovan.

Over the past year, we average 2.2 goals per game when he plays and 1.4 when he doesn't. He is second on the USMNT in goals and first in assists over that time.

Over his last eight starts, he has 4 goals and 8 assists. Five of those eight games were against teams that qualified for Brazil; the others were against a Panama team that almost made it, a decent Jamaica team and El Salvador. We are 7-0-1 in those games.

In his most recent start, against Brazil-bound South Korea, he wore the captain's armband and got the game-winning assist.

So are we going to get Fagundez or what? Would sting to lose him to Uruguay? Have to keep our guys home. I know he's going after US Citizenship, and mentioned the USMNT, but if things stall or he decides to pull a switcheroo, I'll be pissed.

He's years away from citizenship, since he was an illegal alien when he came here. The Revs had to jump through hoops just to keep him here. Only way we get him is if Uruguay says no thanks.

Nagbe is close - this winter I think. Zelalem could be announced any day now. Kekuta Manneh is, like Fagundez, years away.

Regardless, our future is incredibly bright. MLS academies are starting to churn out a ton of attacking talent.

 

[UConnDan97]

Over the past year, we average 2.2 goals per game when he plays and 1.4 when he doesn't. He is second on the USMNT in goals and first in assists over that time.

Over his last eight starts, he has 4 goals and 8 assists. Five of those eight games were against teams that qualified for Brazil; the others were against a Panama team that almost made it, a decent Jamaica team and El Salvador. We are 7-0-1 in those games.

In his most recent start, against Brazil-bound South Korea, he wore the captain's armband and got the game-winning assist.

^^^ This!

 

[intlzncster]

Over the past year, we average 2.2 goals per game when he plays and 1.4 when he doesn't. He is second on the USMNT in goals and first in assists over that time.

Over his last eight starts, he has 4 goals and 8 assists. Five of those eight games were against teams that qualified for Brazil; the others were against a Panama team that almost made it, a decent Jamaica team and El Salvador. We are 7-0-1 in those games.

In his most recent start, against Brazil-bound South Korea, he wore the captain's armband and got the game-winning assist.


He's years away from citizenship, since he was an illegal alien when he came here. The Revs had to jump through hoops just to keep him here. Only way we get him is if Uruguay says no thanks.

Nagbe is close - this winter I think. Zelalem could be announced any day now. Kekuta Manneh is, like Fagundez, years away.

Regardless, our future is incredibly bright. MLS academies are starting to churn out a ton of attacking talent.

Man I wish they could fast track these things. I know it's not exactly kosher, but I really want the USMNT to challenge at the top level internationally. I wonder were they to have the clout of the NBA/NFL/MLB, if they couldn't get the process sped up.

 

[Mots010]

Over the past year, we average 2.2 goals per game when he plays and 1.4 when he doesn't. He is second on the USMNT in goals and first in assists over that time.

I think that's a bit misleading, since he played what, six games in the Gold Cup against B teams, including Belize and Cuba.

 

[Matrim55]

I think that's a bit misleading, since he played what, six games in the Gold Cup against B teams, including Belize and Cuba.

Gold Cup games made up only 4 of those last 8 starts. Honduras, Costa Rica, Panama and El Salvador - all four of whom brought A- teams to the Gold Cup.

 

[Cheddie]

Klinsman was quite complimentary of Donovan in a noon press conference. Called him "very professional" several times, talked about his son making a "big mistake" with social media and said his decision was based on technical factors, which he wouldn't address. He said he asked Donovan to be ready in case someone was hurt so he could immediately step in, and Donovan agreed to this.

I don't follow the game close enough to have an opinion one way or the other, but I thought the coach handled himself very well during questioning.

 

[Matrim55]

Man I wish they could fast track these things. I know it's not exactly kosher, but I really want the USMNT to challenge at the top level internationally.

Over the past 15 years we've finished 4th at an Olympics, made the World Cup quarters once and Round of 16 once, finished 2nd in the Confederations Cup (2009) and third (1999).

The one time we failed to make the knock-out rounds at the World Cup, we still managed to get a point off of Italy - the only team in the tournament to do so as the Azzuri went on to win the title.

From 2008 through 2013, we were the only team to beat Spain in the knock-out round of ANY full international tournament. When we did so, we ended their 37-game unbeaten streak.

We have also surpassed Mexico, a top-15 team, as the No. 1 squad in the region.

So I ask you this: Haven't we already been challenging at the top level internationally?

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

I think challenging at the top level would mean not having to cite things like "taking a point off of Italy while going out in the group stages", but I defer to the experts on the board.

 

[Matrim55]

I think challenging at the top level would mean not having to cite things like "taking a point off of Italy while going out in the group stages", but I defer to the experts on the board.

So one bad tournament cancels out all top-level accomplishments? Guess we'll have to let France 2002 know, and both Spain and Germany from 2004.

Also, UConn isn't a top level team because we've been in the NIT twice in the last decade. Can't wait til we challenge at the top level like Duke!

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

So one bad tournament cancels out all top-level accomplishments? Guess we'll have to let France 2002 know, and both Spain and Germany from 2004.

Also, UConn isn't a top level team because we've been in the NIT twice in the last decade. Can't wait til we challenge at the top level like Duke!

Now you're getting silly to prove a (suspect) point. Do you think Spain and Germany cite tournaments where they took a point off a highly regarded team as evidence of their competitiveness. Likely not.

This happens every year. A certain contingent gasses everyone up with outsized expectations and then they go out with a whimper. At least as of yesterday you'll have your built in excuse.

 

[Matrim55]

Now you're getting silly to prove a (suspect) point. Do you think Spain and Germany cite tournaments where they took a point off a highly regarded team as evidence of their competitiveness. Likely not.

My point was that even at our worst, we are competitive enough to hang with the big boys. Even at our worst, we are not road kill. We are not favorites, but we are certainly challenging to break into the top dozen or so soccer nations.

And it's worth noting that every single country in the world - save for Brazil - has a similar blemish in the last 15 years. Hell, we were in the same Confeds Cup group as Italy in 2009: we advanced and they didn't.

This happens every year. A certain contingent gasses everyone up with outsized expectations and then they go out with a whimper. At least as of yesterday you'll have your built in excuse.

We've gone out with a whimper once in the last three World Cups. We've made it to the semifinals and finals in two of our last three Confederations Cups. We've won three of our last five Gold Cups.

You have bought into some silly narrative and are simply spouting it without checking your facts. You must love how ESPN covers Duke basketball, which is clearly the greatest program in all the land.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

How do you think Spain or Germany would fare in the Gold Cup? I think they'd probably struggle with Martinique and maybe draw with Canada. They'd get blasted by Haiti, no question.

I'm not buying into anything, but I appreciate the suggestion. I'm just observing what happens on the field. I don't doubt that the US can pack the box, score on a counterattack, and steal a win from some top flight squad. But I think we clearly have different understandings of what it means to compete at the highest level.

 

[ZooCougar]

You just spouted the basest, most thoughtless and banal conventional wisdom out there. Congratulations on being entirely unable to process information at all critically.

FWIW, I have no issue with any coach, foreign or domestic, who does a good job. I do have an issue with folks who think a coach has to have a European (or South American) accent to do a good job. It's this kind of bull that has our youth coaching ranks filled with failed Brits who don't know the first thing about rondos, third-line passing drills and other relatively basic ball control techniques.

Are there great foreign coaches in the US? Absolutely - the smartest one I know is Basque, a former youth director with Bilbao. He's great, and has been a true asset for me and US soccer as a whole. If I was starting a club tomorrow, he'd be my first hire.

But he's not a great coach because he's Basque; he's a great coach and developer of talent because he's a great coach and developer of talent. The same goes for the literally dozens of Americans throughout the US soccer (and the Canadians I've worked with as well).

Klinsmann is not a great coach. Lahm justifiably ripped him after the Bayern Munich stint, and there's a reason Sunil didn't have to fight off any other big clubs for the guy's signature. His team has less tactical identity or nuance than either of his predecessors', and he has now prioritized a German 4th division player over the most productive USMNT attacker of both all-time and the past year.

Here's one of those blunt MLS goals, btw:



Here's another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xq1BPww174

Here's a third:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQn9eXC0lkc

Those are all just from last week.

You are completely wrong about why Klinsmann left Munich. It was 100% political. He flat out didn't see eye to eye with management. In all my time in Germany, I never met one German who didn't think Klinsmann was first rate manager.

 

[ZooCougar]

Klinsman was quite complimentary of Donovan in a noon press conference. Called him "very professional" several times, talked about his son making a "big mistake" with social media and said his decision was based on technical factors, which he wouldn't address. He said he asked Donovan to be ready in case someone was hurt so he could immediately step in, and Donovan agreed to this.

I don't follow the game close enough to have an opinion one way or the other, but I thought the coach handled himself very well during questioning.

JK is smart enough to know that leaving LD off the 23 man roster would controversial and even divisive.

Is anyone here stupid enough to believe or bold enough to admit that they stupidly think the JK would knowingly risk all of the equity he has built up by leaving LD off for egotistical reasons? Good grief.

 

[Matrim55]

How do you think Spain or Germany would fare in the Gold Cup? I think they'd probably struggle with Martinique and maybe draw with Canada. They'd get blasted by Haiti, no question.

If Spain is so dominant, what does that say about the fact that we beat them the one time we played them in a competitive match?

Also, Spain just barely edged out Haiti 2-1 in a friendly last summer:

Playing the first of a two-city U.S. tour, Spain controlled the ball and made repeated attacks on goal throughout the first half and withstood a spirited second half response from Haiti.

"In the second half we reduced our pressure and intensity and Haiti responded,'' Spain head coach Vicente del Bosque said. "This was a good test for our team.''

Del Bosque, who made four substitutions in the second half, was not stunned by the close margin.

"Haiti is ranked 59 in FIFA, it's not as if we were playing number 208,'' del Bosque said. "They were a good first rival to help us adjust to the different time zone and to obviously improve our game.''

I'm not buying into anything, but I appreciate the suggestion. I'm just observing what happens on the field. I don't doubt that the US can pack the box, score on a counterattack, and steal a win from some top flight squad. But I think we clearly have different understandings of what it means to compete at the highest level.

Against Spain and Brazil, that is indeed how we've played.

When we beat Argentina a few years back, we came out and attacked. When we play Germany, we generally go out on attack. We ALWAYS attack vs. Italy.

When we've played Ghana the last two World Cups, we've definitely been the aggressor and they countered us out of the tournament. Against the likes of Slovenia and Algeria, we've carried the vast majority of play.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

If Spain is so dominant, what does that say about the fact that we beat them the one time we played them in a competitive match?

Also, Spain just barely edged out Haiti 2-1 in a friendly last summer:

Playing the first of a two-city U.S. tour, Spain controlled the ball and made repeated attacks on goal throughout the first half and withstood a spirited second half response from Haiti.

"In the second half we reduced our pressure and intensity and Haiti responded,'' Spain head coach Vicente del Bosque said. "This was a good test for our team.''

Del Bosque, who made four substitutions in the second half, was not stunned by the close margin.

"Haiti is ranked 59 in FIFA, it's not as if we were playing number 208,'' del Bosque said. "They were a good first rival to help us adjust to the different time zone and to obviously improve our game.''


Against Spain and Brazil, that is indeed how we've played.

When we beat Argentina a few years back, we came out and attacked. When we play Germany, we generally go out on attack. We ALWAYS attack vs. Italy.

When we've played Ghana the last two World Cups, we've definitely been the aggressor and they countered us out of the tournament. Against the likes of Slovenia and Algeria, we've carried the vast majority of play.

Let's hear your prediction.

 

[Matrim55]

Let's hear your prediction.

Brazil over Argentina in the final. Germany crashes out in the final 8, and Low gets fired, then hired by either PSG or Monaco.

The US plays three ugly games and doesn't advance. Chandler, Jones and Johnson all absolutely wilt in the heat.

Jurgen keeps his job and we lose to Mexico in next year's Gold Cup. At that point, he's fired and Sunil offers the job to Peter Vermes.

Jurgen goes on to become a motivational speaker and pitchman for Ronco Salad Shooters.