OT: Keyontae Johnson UF

[Jay-Bone]

to not use him as an unwilling pawn.

Who is using him as a pawn? Seems like you're sensationalizing this not being covid related more so than those speculating a possible link. Do you have scientific evidence there aren't lasting effects?

Would you tell his doctor not to consider possible effects, so you can use him as a pawn to grind your axe?

Gathers died from the 2nd time he collapsed 3 weeks after the first collapse. Its a shame we don't take medical conditions more seriously. But he had to play, he was a superstar.

Will you clear this kid to play in 3 weeks because you only have one case of a player dying after collapsing a second time? Florida's fans might get depressed if they don't have a winning season.

I had no idea Scott Atlas was a UConn alum.

 

[Improviser]

True.

Well, we probably agree at some basic level, and we might just be parsing words. "Clinical observations" of a medical doctor, are, to me, 100% not scientific. That doesn't mean, "not useful" or "not rational," but merely, "not scientific."

What is science. I'll go with Mega-Corp-Monopoly Google's first provided definition: "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

The key word in all of that is "experiment." Secondarily, focus on "systematic study."

A doctor reporting his/her findings regarding patients is not an experiment, and is probably not a "systematic study."

Again, we may be just parsing words here.

Ultimately, I read and trust peer-reviewed publications. Beyond that, there is so much noise that it is usually not worth listening. Doctors providing notes from the front lines is . . . interesting, laudable, brave, heart warming, and so on. But it is not science.

I do read them too, and even subscribe to NEJM to seek those very findings. I have access to Medline so I do respect studies.

Absent any findings from peer-reviewed publications though, I will go with my doctor's recommendations which I would assume come from his experience treating similar issues and after consultation with his peers. I have asked my doctor how he reached his conclusion.

Even in the legal field, absent precedent, lawyers consulting other lawyers on professional list serves, (and I assume doctors have theirs), make recommendations to other lawyers how to handle a fact pattern. Doctors I would assume, do the same with their fellow doctors online or via phone conversation, on how to treat symptoms not specifically addressed in a study.

If the condition is not rare, likely a study will sought out by the medical profession. I see these advertisements on the back of buses seeking subjects for a study and offering to pay them. I have seen these for depression and drug use and smoking.

Whether this meets the definition of science in the purest sense, I do not know.

 

[Stinger92860]

Every college athlete, especially at D1 since they can afford it, should be testing these kids for heart issues their first day in the program. Now with covid, they should be retested every year.

 

[JohnFSilver]

A kind of pre-existing condition discrimination? Why isn't there as much outrage about pre-ex for life insurance as there is for health insurance?

Well, life insurance is monetary. It is a fiancial contract.

health insurance is medical care.

 

[Scoe]

Could be a genetic heart disorder, well wait and see. Could be similar to the Isaiah Austin situation, btw he is playing professionally now said hes willing to risk it to play basketball. Scary stuff hopefully he will be healthy enough to play in the NBA would suspect he will be done this year in a covid year, if he can't play in the NBA I could see him being honored at the next draft.

 

[Chin Diesel]

To equate with Bias is idiotic...Bias died in an off campus apt.

But he did collapse and die from a coke overdose. Location of the collapse is less critical than knowing the effects of the drug and what it can do to outwardly appearing healthy young men.

 

[billybud]

The SEC says that they do a heart screening after an athlete tests positive,,,

Each SEC athlete that returns a positive COVID-19 test will undergo an electrocardiogram, an echocardiogram, a troponin level blood test and an evaluation by a physician, according to the SEC’s new mandate.

 

[Kathy]

The SEC says that they do a heart screening after an athlete tests positive,,,

Each SEC athlete that returns a positive COVID-19 test will undergo an electrocardiogram, an echocardiogram, a troponin level blood test and an evaluation by a physician, according to the SEC’s new mandate.

Good to know - it would be nice to know if this is NCAA wide.

 

[billybud]

Good to know - it would be nice to know if this is NCAA wide.

Each conference has their own rule...the ACC's mirror's the SEC.....specifies that every student-athlete who tests positive will undergo a cardiac evaluation that includes an electrocardiogram, a troponin test and an echocardiogram before a phased return to exercise.

 

[UCTitleTown]

But he did collapse and die from a coke overdose. Location of the collapse is less critical than knowing the effects of the drug and what it can do to outwardly appearing healthy young men.

I dont believe that coke is the drug of choice for today's young people.

 

[billybud]

As late as November 1....The BE hadn't set protocols....can not find any for post Covid heart review...might be...just can not find it on web.
Big East COVID-19 protocols remain a work in progress

Big East COVID-19 protocols remain a work in progress

Commissioner Val Ackerman says the conference has yet to set its COVID-19 testing and quarantine guidelines.

www.theuconnblog.com

 

[Chin Diesel]

I dont believe that coke is the drug of choice for today's young people.

I realize that. And all my speculation falls in the spectrum between being a jackass and somehow trying to make a point.

None of us have any information on his pre-existing health nor do we have any info on what doctors have found since yesterday. But we have a bunch of people posting on here speculating.

 

[Yardigan]

Well, life insurance is monetary. It is a fiancial contract.

health insurance is medical care.

Oh...so, with health care, there are no financial contracts or implications? (I did not know that, even after having been in the biz for more than 25 years...thanks!)

 

[RayRay]

As late as November 1....The BE hadn't set protocols....can not find any for post Covid heart review...might be...just can not find it on web.
Big East COVID-19 protocols remain a work in progress

Big East COVID-19 protocols remain a work in progress

Commissioner Val Ackerman says the conference has yet to set its COVID-19 testing and quarantine guidelines.

www.theuconnblog.com

I remember Hurley saying in a recent interview earlier this week that anyone that tested positive had to go through cardiac testing, so I assume at minimum UConn is on the same page as SEC.

 

[Dooooooomed]

Prayers for the young man. Tough day for Gators athletics.

 

[EBonz30]

Why does every moment of our life have to be tied to COVID, maybe K.J. collapsed just like so many athletes before him did, which COVID wasn’t even here yet.

I don’t really understand our passion as a society to try to tie everything & anything to COVID?

 

[Giddyup5]

Good to know - it would be nice to know if this is NCAA wide.

I can tell you that every student athlete I take care of a Connecticut College that has tested positive gets a cardiac clearance.

And that’s D3.

It’s a NCAA recommendation.

 

[billybud]

I remember Hurley saying in a recent interview earlier this week that anyone that tested positive had to go through cardiac testing, so I assume at minimum UConn is on the same page as SEC.

Should be along the SEC, ACC, PAC....I just can't find a web reference....but I can not open Courant articles...

 

[krinklecut]

Why does every moment of our life have to be tied to COVID, maybe K.J. collapsed just like so many athletes before him did, which COVID wasn’t even here yet.

I don’t really understand our passion as a society to try to tie everything & anything to COVID?

Because, uh, *gestures wildly at everything*

I get it though. Yeah, of course not everything is related to covid. Of course there’s a good chance this tragedy isn’t related to covid. The fact that he did have covid this year, though, makes it entirely appropriate to discuss it and to discuss whether or not programs, conferences, and the NCAA are doing everything they can to protect student athletes.

It’s exhausting, I agree, but reality is indiscriminate to our exhaustion.

 

[BParkDog]

Who is using him as a pawn?

Another poster noted that he has practically been screaming about long term effects of SARS-CoV-2 infection, and noted that everything should be shut down if this young man's apparent cardiovascular issue was caused by Covid-19.
People are going to want to to use this young man's tragedy to support their desire for . . . whatever they think is correct.

Seems like you're sensationalizing this not being covid related more so than those speculating a possible link.

Well this is exactly the point. This may be SARS-CoV-2 related, but all the science we have to date says, very unlikely. That's not sensation. That's just what the science is telling us. The sensation is the Penn State doc falsely announcing numbers, the German study having to retract faulty numbers, and the overboard reaction to every morsel of news that runs across the screen.

Do you have scientific evidence there aren't lasting effects?

That's not how it typically works, but thanks for the smile this morning. If you believe that, in order to hold a basic belief true, you must first provide "evidence that there aren't," then be super sure not to take any of the mRNA vaccines that they are rolling out - the concept is brand new and the particular naked nucleic acids they are going to be shooting into your shoulder are also new. So we are dealing with a novel vaccine type and novel vaccine within that type, the latter of which has been under development for . . . 270 days.

I'll have no problem taking the vaccine if they make me, or if I have the choice and I choose to, but make no mistake about it . . . we won't know what the long term effects are, if any, until years from now.

Finally, if it's up to me to provide "evidence that there aren't," rather than the person arguing for long term effects to provide "evidence that there are," then you'd almost have to accept any argument that you can't refute with "evidence that there aren't."

For example, the existence of a god or a dozen gods or a sun god. Do you have any evidence that there aren't?

Or Mastodons and Sabre Tooth Tigers in the woods around Storrs, Connecticut. Do you have an evidence that there aren't? I think you do not, sir.

And I'm not advocating for any position. I'm advocating for the science. If a study was produced that showed that a SARS-CoV-2 infection was the primary or substantial cause of a young, healthy athlete's death, you can mark it down that I'll be the first one calling for the season to end.

 

[auror]

It was a Penn State's director of athletic medicine, Dr. Wayne Sebastianelli , who presented the original data, publicly, that "30-35% of all Big10 athletes had myocarditis after Covid-19." It was flatly untrue, probably a lie, and later claimed to be "outdated numbers from a preliminary study." Had to eventually own up the published number - which was 15%. We're talking about a worldwide pandemic and this guy, and MD presumably, is casually throwing out numbers. Should have been fired on the spot for negligence, if it was true that he just didn't know that his numbers were dated, or should have been fired for malpractice if he did know. In any event, his lie/misinformation alarmed many people, and is one more example of the hysteria surrounding this virus/illness.

I just, quickly, looked at the Ohio State study - not going to read the original. Conclusion was: "Using CMR imaging, 15% of athletes in the study were shown to possibly have myocarditis."

Again, every researcher out there is looking for something. Using a scan to say that 15% "possibly" have myocarditis is exactly why the pathologists published their study two months later . . . turns out imaging is not definitively reliable, but pulling out the heart and cutting it into sections is.

But you can't make a splash with, "Big10 athletes appear normal after Covid-19." No fame/promotion/publication/funding there.

Gotcha. The NYT quoted the 15% number and mentioned the Ohio State people (who had some media backlash themselves they tried to spin which I had linked elsewhere in this forum so I thought that was the retraction you meant. My apologies), so I must have missed the original hullabloo. Either way, "possibly 15%" isn't exactly something to ignore, either, and I don't think autopsies of 75 year olds would cause me to dismiss a different data point that was more relevant to my population, even if the autopsies are more rigorous.

It's good to see as @billybud mentions the SEC had policies in place to check the heart. Hopefully they were followed, hopefully myocarditis isn't a huge risk for young athletes testing positive, and obviously more strongly hopefully he recovers completely and can resume his NBA dream.

 

[huskymedic]

ACC post infection clearance policy in real life (from this past Tuesday):

Miami Hurricanes CB Al Blades Jr. to miss remainder of season with myocarditis

Miami Hurricanes junior cornerback Al Blades Jr. will miss the remainder of the season with myocarditis, he announced Tuesday night. Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle and one of the p…

www.sun-sentinel.com

 

[mussels]

ACC post infection clearance policy in real life (from this past Tuesday):

Miami Hurricanes CB Al Blades Jr. to miss remainder of season with myocarditis

Miami Hurricanes junior cornerback Al Blades Jr. will miss the remainder of the season with myocarditis, he announced Tuesday night. Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle and one of the p…

www.sun-sentinel.com

Vanderbilt women’s basketball player Washington becomes face of dangers brought on by COVID-19

After a strong freshmen year, Vanderbilt women’s basketball guard Demi Washington was expected to do big things for the Commodores this season. Now, Washington will be sidelined after a battle with COVID-19 left her with myocarditis that could threaten her health.

bvmsports.com

 

[Kathy]

Each conference has their own rule...the ACC's mirror's the SEC.....specifies that every student-athlete who tests positive will undergo a cardiac evaluation that includes an electrocardiogram, a troponin test and an echocardiogram before a phased return to exercise.

Should be NCAA wide for all sports they are playing

 

[Kathy]

I can tell you that every student athlete I take care of a Connecticut College that has tested positive gets a cardiac clearance.

And that’s D3.

It’s a NCAA recommendation.

Should be a requirement