OT: Home Run Derby

[Guapo]

Not sure how a thread on a fun as hell HR derby turned into a conversation about whether or not baseball has an existential crisis but my two cents worth:

Is baseball as popular as it once was? No. But, nothing is as popular as it once was, everything is a niche and baseball occupies its own healthy niche in the entertainment and sports landscape.

 

[Guapo]

Not sure how a thread on a fun as hell HR derby turned into a conversation about whether or not baseball has an existential crisis but my two cents worth:

Is baseball as popular as it once was? No. But, nothing is as popular as it once was, everything is a niche and baseball occupies its own healthy niche in the entertainment and sports landscape.

Also, for the record, I’m a millennial and all my friends follow baseball at least to some extent. If they don’t watch every game then they look up scores and stats on their phones etc.

 

[navery12]

Yeah I don't get the whole sky is falling thing. Everyone I know watches baseball a ton

 

[superjohn]

How old are you?

39. Where do you live?

 

[uconnever]

I like baseball and I like homeruns but a great pitched game is funny to watch also

 

[Guapo]

I like baseball and I like homeruns but a great pitched game is funny to watch also

Agreed, it’s hilarious

 

[Excalibur]

The players aren't any stronger,

Right. Strength and conditioning hasn't improved . . .

 

[Husky25]

Ok...it's batting practice. They are actually saying he broke a record.....it's batting practice. No more. I liked the celebrity softball game more.

I was more interested in the Futures Game, and I missed that as well.

 

[whaler11]

Right. Strength and conditioning hasn't improved . . .

if you saw the reds with the sleeveless uniforms ovee the weekend it’s fairly absurd. they look like a national championship crossfit team

 

[Madmannsucks]

Also, for the record, I’m a millennial and all my friends follow baseball at least to some extent. If they don’t watch every game then they look up scores and stats on their phones etc.

Different world. Growing up, there was the game of the week and Monday Night baseball. Remember, depending on where you lived(Central Ct for me)...there were 2 to 4 channels. Listening to games on radio was in. Now there are so many other things going on and hundreds and hundreds of games a year available. Baseball is popular, but the arena has changed dramatically.

 

[Guapo]

if you saw the reds with the sleeveless uniforms ovee the weekend it’s fairly absurd. they look like a national championship crossfit team

Yeah that was cool as hell. All baseball uniforms should be sleeveless

 

[Guapo]

Yeah that was cool as hell. All baseball uniforms should be sleeveless

And before all you facial hair-hatin’ Yankee fans come at me, y’all can have these “sleeves”

 

[superjohn]

Right. Strength and conditioning hasn't improved . . .

You think the players are stronger than they were in 90's early 2000's when the majority of the league was juicing? There is still a good chunk of the league juicing but like 60%-70% or so of the league was back then.

Explain to me how strength and conditioning has improved since then? You get stronger by lifting heavy weights, eating, and taking drugs. Weights and weight lifting haven't changed, the food hasn't changed, the drugs have changed some but I think they're cycling most of the same stuff. I may be naive but I don't think as many MLB players are using as they were in the 90's and early 2000's.

 

[Husky25]

The Reds were never afraid to rock sleeveless jerseys. They did it in the 60s and then the mid 90s. I recall other teams doing it as well, but there would always be the solid color undershirt.

 

[Husky25]

You think the players are stronger than they were in 90's early 2000's when the majority of the league was juicing? There is still a good chunk of the league juicing but like 60%-70% or so of the league was back then.

Explain to me how strength and conditioning has improved since then? You get stronger by lifting heavy weights, eating, and taking drugs. Weights and weight lifting haven't changed, the food hasn't changed, the drugs have changed some but I think they're cycling most of the same stuff. I may be naive but I don't think as many MLB players are using as they were in the 90's and early 2000's.

Weight training was not as prevalent as it is now and the training is better. The food might be the same, but the diets and dietitians are better. Therapy/rehab and medical science have all improved and video review technology is so far more efficient and readily available. Guys used to use spring training to get into shape. Players may take October off, but are back training by Thanksgiving.

Another thing, the rosters and positional prototypes have evolved and there is far more specialization now. Dan Quisenberry broke the 10 year single season save mark in 1983. 22 others have a combined 72 seasons with 45 saves or more since then. The 3-true outcomes hitter was rare and strikeouts were to be avoided. Now batters are less protecting the plate and swinging for the fences, sitting on the fastball, with two strikes. A baserunner is worse for the pitcher. Pitchers akin to Greg Maddox and Jamie Moyer were far more the norm than the fireballers like Roger Clemens, who would only top out around 93. A LOOGYs split-finger is 93 nowadays.

 

[superjohn]

Weight training was not as prevalent as it is now and the training is better. The food might be the same, but the diets and dietitians are better. Therapy/rehab and medical science have all improved and video review technology is so far more efficient and readily available. Guys used to use spring training to get into shape. Players may take October off, but are back training by Thanksgiving.

Another thing, the rosters and positional prototypes have evolved and there is far more specialization now. Dan Quisenberry broke the 10 year single season save mark in 1983. 22 others have a combined 72 seasons with 45 saves or more since then. The 3-true outcomes hitter was rare and strikeouts were to be avoided. Now batters are less protecting the plate and swinging for the fences, sitting on the fastball, with two strikes. A baserunner is worse for the pitcher. Pitchers akin to Greg Maddox and Jamie Moyer were far more the norm than the fireballers like Roger Clemens, who would only top out around 93. A LOOGYs split-finger is 93 nowadays.

Weight training wasn't as prevalent in the 90's early 2000's as it is now? What???

The majority of the league was on steroids.

 

[the Q]

the absolute worst idea is bigger rosters.

oh good more relief pitchers!

They’re already doing it anyway. Why not do it in a way that

1) increases roster consistency

2) promotes better health

You could always cap the amount of pitchers who could be on any active game roster.

 

[whaler11]

They’re already doing it anyway. Why not do it in a way that

1) increases roster consistency

2) promotes better health

You could always cap the amount of pitchers who could be on any active game roster.

Everyone would just deactivate 3 starters and all you’ve done is increase everyone’s pen by 3 arms.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

you are what is becoming a pretty clear minority.

optimizing the rosters has made it impossible for the casual fan - they cycle through so many players in a season it’s insane.

remember when baseball fans knew rotations? remember when you could manage along without volumes of baseball-reference and fangraphs metrics?

Couple points here. I pretty clearly just made the point that I think MLB should adopt some of the rules being discussed to avoid such specialization as it slows down the game. Second, rotations outside of a few teams, aren't becoming harder to remember because of specialization, and third, that managing along without real statistical analysis has led to such atrocious inventions as this sacrifice bunt.

 

[Kenny11]

I don't know much about baseball training but sport specific training has drastically improved in the last 20 years, basketball being the example I know the most about. I imagine baseball has also gone through the same thing.

the weightlifting routines from the 90s are laughed about nowadays by trainers.

 

[Husky25]

Weight training wasn't as prevalent in the 90's early 2000's as it is now?

There's this little curly-q thing above your period...

Yes.

You're far too hung up on steroids. As if no one takes PEDs now or as if one cannot possibly weight train without being juiced up. Strength coaches were few and far between in the mid 90's in baseball. EVERY team has a staff now and every player weight trains. For as much as using PEDs might have been curtailed (questionable), proper training, preparation, nutrition, and technological advances in rehab more than fill the void.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Weight training was not as prevalent as it is now and the training is better. The food might be the same, but the diets and dietitians are better. Therapy/rehab and medical science have all improved and video review technology is so far more efficient and readily available. Guys used to use spring training to get into shape. Players may take October off, but are back training by Thanksgiving.

Another thing, the rosters and positional prototypes have evolved and there is far more specialization now. Dan Quisenberry broke the 10 year single season save mark in 1983. 22 others have a combined 72 seasons with 45 saves or more since then. The 3-true outcomes hitter was rare and strikeouts were to be avoided. Now batters are less protecting the plate and swinging for the fences, sitting on the fastball, with two strikes. A baserunner is worse for the pitcher. Pitchers akin to Greg Maddox and Jamie Moyer were far more the norm than the fireballers like Roger Clemens, who would only top out around 93. A LOOGYs split-finger is 93 nowadays.

Just to be clear, in the time from which we have reliable data (since 2008) when fastball velocity has had a significant increase, we're talking about 1.5 mph. The idea that we've gone from generally Jamie Moyers to the norm being guys bringing consistent mid-90s heat is not correct.

 

[superjohn]

I don't know much about baseball training but sport specific training has drastically improved in the last 20 years, basketball being the example I know the most about. I imagine baseball has also gone through the same thing.

the weightlifting routines from the 90s are laughed about nowadays by trainers.

What are these new routines for gaining strength and muscle that make weightlifting in the 90's laughed at?

Is Alosi laughed at? Everything he has the players doing was done in the 90's.

 

[superjohn]

I don't know much about baseball training but sport specific training has drastically improved in the last 20 years, basketball being the example I know the most about. I imagine baseball has also gone through the same thing.

the weightlifting routines from the 90s are laughed about nowadays by trainers.

What are these new routines for gaining strength and muscle that make weightlifting in the 90's laughed about?

Is Alosi laughed at? Everything he has the players doing was done in the 90's.

There's this little curly-q thing above your period...

Yes.

You're far too hung up on steroids. As if no one takes PEDs now or as if one cannot possibly weight train without being juiced up. Strength coaches were few and far between in the mid 90's in baseball. EVERY team has a staff now and every player weight trains. For as much as using PEDs might have been curtailed (questionable), proper training, preparation, nutrition, and technological advances in rehab more than fill the void.

I admitted I was probably being a bit naive as to PED use being curtailed much (would guess close to half of professional athletes are using) but your last statement is unbelievably naive, laughably so. We're talking about players being bigger and stronger. If less of the league is using than in the 90's and early 2000's the players aren't bigger and stronger. Proper nutrition, preparation, proper training, and rehab absolutely don't fill the void for PED's when it comes to strength and size. Nutrition, proper training, and rehab have also been around forever. Seriously, come on.

 

[Husky25]

Just to be clear, in the time from which we have reliable data (since 2008) when fastball velocity has had a significant increase, we're talking about 1.5 mph. The idea that we've gone from generally Jamie Moyers to the norm being guys bringing consistent mid-90s heat is not correct.

How is there only reliable data since 2008?

 

[whaler11]

Couple points here. I pretty clearly just made the point that I think MLB should adopt some of the rules being discussed to avoid such specialization as it slows down the game. Second, rotations outside of a few teams, aren't becoming harder to remember because of specialization, and third, that managing along without real statistical analysis has led to such atrocious inventions as this sacrifice bunt.

I get the analytics - and it’s the only way to compete but it makes the game inaccessable to a lot of people.

I got into all the numbers late 90’s when BP
was still getting started (and was great).

Look at the stands. One third of the teams don’t even compete. The fans are old and getting older. Going to a game feels like nothing but a giant cash grab.

They have real problems that they don’t even try to address. The games are so long and filled with dead time it’s painful. c

 

[BlueMAB]

Nutrition, proper training, and rehab have also been around forever.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but why are you pretending like we aren't that far removed from players smoking cigs in the dugout?

Keith Hernandez smokes two packs during a game.

 

[BlueMAB]

FWIW

Not your father's MLB.

 

[superjohn]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but why are you pretending like we aren't that far removed from players smoking cigs in the dugout?

Keith Hernandez smokes two packs during a game.

What does that have to do with most of the league doing steroids in the 90's and early 2000's?

 

[BlueMAB]

What does that have to do with most of the league doing steroids in the 90's and early 2000's?

It's an example of how advancements in technology, knowledge, analytics, etc etc. has all provided more information to change athletes' behavior largely for the better. Yes, even since the 90's.

Many guys who use PEDs are doing so to recover faster, not necessarily to look like Barry Bonds. You're focusing on strength alone. But you've oversimplified the entire argument to "steroids", as if there isn't a science to lifting weights in terms of load, speed, reps, recovery time, etc. But you've dug your heels in so just go ahead and pretend like the only difference between 1995 and 2015 is a needle in the arse.