OT: Home Run Derby

[Husky25]

Weight training wasn't as prevalent in the 90's early 2000's as it is now?

There's this little curly-q thing above your period...

Yes.

You're far too hung up on steroids. As if no one takes PEDs now or as if one cannot possibly weight train without being juiced up. Strength coaches were few and far between in the mid 90's in baseball. EVERY team has a staff now and every player weight trains. For as much as using PEDs might have been curtailed (questionable), proper training, preparation, nutrition, and technological advances in rehab more than fill the void.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Weight training was not as prevalent as it is now and the training is better. The food might be the same, but the diets and dietitians are better. Therapy/rehab and medical science have all improved and video review technology is so far more efficient and readily available. Guys used to use spring training to get into shape. Players may take October off, but are back training by Thanksgiving.

Another thing, the rosters and positional prototypes have evolved and there is far more specialization now. Dan Quisenberry broke the 10 year single season save mark in 1983. 22 others have a combined 72 seasons with 45 saves or more since then. The 3-true outcomes hitter was rare and strikeouts were to be avoided. Now batters are less protecting the plate and swinging for the fences, sitting on the fastball, with two strikes. A baserunner is worse for the pitcher. Pitchers akin to Greg Maddox and Jamie Moyer were far more the norm than the fireballers like Roger Clemens, who would only top out around 93. A LOOGYs split-finger is 93 nowadays.

Just to be clear, in the time from which we have reliable data (since 2008) when fastball velocity has had a significant increase, we're talking about 1.5 mph. The idea that we've gone from generally Jamie Moyers to the norm being guys bringing consistent mid-90s heat is not correct.

 

[superjohn]

I don't know much about baseball training but sport specific training has drastically improved in the last 20 years, basketball being the example I know the most about. I imagine baseball has also gone through the same thing.

the weightlifting routines from the 90s are laughed about nowadays by trainers.

What are these new routines for gaining strength and muscle that make weightlifting in the 90's laughed at?

Is Alosi laughed at? Everything he has the players doing was done in the 90's.

 

[superjohn]

I don't know much about baseball training but sport specific training has drastically improved in the last 20 years, basketball being the example I know the most about. I imagine baseball has also gone through the same thing.

the weightlifting routines from the 90s are laughed about nowadays by trainers.

What are these new routines for gaining strength and muscle that make weightlifting in the 90's laughed about?

Is Alosi laughed at? Everything he has the players doing was done in the 90's.

There's this little curly-q thing above your period...

Yes.

You're far too hung up on steroids. As if no one takes PEDs now or as if one cannot possibly weight train without being juiced up. Strength coaches were few and far between in the mid 90's in baseball. EVERY team has a staff now and every player weight trains. For as much as using PEDs might have been curtailed (questionable), proper training, preparation, nutrition, and technological advances in rehab more than fill the void.

I admitted I was probably being a bit naive as to PED use being curtailed much (would guess close to half of professional athletes are using) but your last statement is unbelievably naive, laughably so. We're talking about players being bigger and stronger. If less of the league is using than in the 90's and early 2000's the players aren't bigger and stronger. Proper nutrition, preparation, proper training, and rehab absolutely don't fill the void for PED's when it comes to strength and size. Nutrition, proper training, and rehab have also been around forever. Seriously, come on.

 

[Husky25]

Just to be clear, in the time from which we have reliable data (since 2008) when fastball velocity has had a significant increase, we're talking about 1.5 mph. The idea that we've gone from generally Jamie Moyers to the norm being guys bringing consistent mid-90s heat is not correct.

How is there only reliable data since 2008?

 

[whaler11]

Couple points here. I pretty clearly just made the point that I think MLB should adopt some of the rules being discussed to avoid such specialization as it slows down the game. Second, rotations outside of a few teams, aren't becoming harder to remember because of specialization, and third, that managing along without real statistical analysis has led to such atrocious inventions as this sacrifice bunt.

I get the analytics - and it’s the only way to compete but it makes the game inaccessable to a lot of people.

I got into all the numbers late 90’s when BP
was still getting started (and was great).

Look at the stands. One third of the teams don’t even compete. The fans are old and getting older. Going to a game feels like nothing but a giant cash grab.

They have real problems that they don’t even try to address. The games are so long and filled with dead time it’s painful. c

 

[BlueMAB]

Nutrition, proper training, and rehab have also been around forever.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but why are you pretending like we aren't that far removed from players smoking cigs in the dugout?

Keith Hernandez smokes two packs during a game.

 

[BlueMAB]

FWIW

Not your father's MLB.

 

[superjohn]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but why are you pretending like we aren't that far removed from players smoking cigs in the dugout?

Keith Hernandez smokes two packs during a game.

What does that have to do with most of the league doing steroids in the 90's and early 2000's?

 

[BlueMAB]

What does that have to do with most of the league doing steroids in the 90's and early 2000's?

It's an example of how advancements in technology, knowledge, analytics, etc etc. has all provided more information to change athletes' behavior largely for the better. Yes, even since the 90's.

Many guys who use PEDs are doing so to recover faster, not necessarily to look like Barry Bonds. You're focusing on strength alone. But you've oversimplified the entire argument to "steroids", as if there isn't a science to lifting weights in terms of load, speed, reps, recovery time, etc. But you've dug your heels in so just go ahead and pretend like the only difference between 1995 and 2015 is a needle in the arse.

 

[Guapo]

How can there possibly be this much handwringing?

 

[superjohn]

It's an example of how advancements in technology, knowledge, analytics, etc etc. has all provided more information to change athletes' behavior largely for the better. Yes, even since the 90's.

Many guys who use PEDs are doing so to recover faster, not necessarily to look like Barry Bonds. You're focusing on strength alone. But you've oversimplified the entire argument to "steroids", as if there isn't a science to lifting weights in terms of load, speed, reps, recovery time, etc. But you've dug your heels in so just go ahead and pretend like the only difference between 1995 and 2015 is a needle in the arse.

Again, what does this have to do with Keith Hernandez being a smoker?

The thread turned into players being stronger now. That's only going to be the case if they have the same PED problem they had during the "steroid era" which they may. Just the past year or two I have noticed an uptick in more muscled up players than the previous 4 or 5.

When I see nonsense like training science, nutrition, recovery etc. more than fills the void for drugs I'm going to call it out. People are still so incredibly naive to drugs in sports and culture.

 

[Husky25]

Nutrition, proper training, and rehab have also been around forever. Seriously, come on.

No, they haven't.

Guys used to pop amphetamines to recover from the game the night before and drink beers to come down from that night's game. Greenies were a bigger issue than steroids. I wouldn't classify that as proper nutrition and rehab.

I got my completely torn ACL reconstructed in 1995 (by a doctor in the same practice as the Red Sox team orthopedist at the time, incidentally). I was in the hospital for 3 days and it took my over a year to feel pre-surgery comfortable again. Heck, I was barely able to walk without crutches when I stepped foot in Storrs, 3 weeks later. Today, it's more or less outpatient surgery, doesn't leave a 4 inch scar, and takes 3/4 the time to recover at a world class level.

More recently, I was diagnosed with a tear in my Achilles, as well as peroneal tendinitis. I couldn't walk without a limp and Advil was useless for the pain. I was prescribed shockwave therapy and physical therapy just like a pro athlete would (only difference is they would get it daily and wouldn't have to pay for it.). 2 months later the tear is healed and I can run with no more soreness than a typical 42 year old should have.

Obviously, those are personal and anecdotal, and I am not, nor ever was, a world class athlete. So be that as it may, check out this series of articles regarding the history of strength training in baseball. It's not been around that long.

 

[BlueMAB]

Again, what does this have to do with Keith Hernandez being a smoker?

The thread turned into players being stronger now. That's only going to be the case if they have the same PED problem they had during the "steroid era" which they may. Just the past year or two I have noticed an uptick in more muscled up players than the previous 4 or 5.

When I see nonsense like training science, nutrition, recovery etc. more than fills the void for drugs I'm going to call it out. People are still so incredibly naive to drugs in sports and culture.

And you're incredibly overconfident about things you're not an expert in.

You "noticed an uptick" in muscled up players, therefore your assertions must be correct.

As home runs rise, baseball's PED problem remains

For those that read the headline and not the article....

"Connect the dots at your own pleasure or peril. This is the unfortunate toxicity left from The Steroid Era. It has empowered doubt—even though the home run craze is due to a massive change in hitting philosophy more than anything else. "

 

[superjohn]

No, they haven't.

Guys used to pop amphetamines to recover from the game the night before and drink beers to come down from that night's game. Greenies were a bigger issue than steroids. I wouldn't classify that as proper nutrition and rehab.

I got my completely torn ACL reconstructed in 1995 (by a doctor in the same practice as the Red Sox team orthopedist, incidentally). I was in the hospital for 3 days and it took my over a year to feel pre-surgery comfortable again. Heck, I was barely able to walk without crutches when I stepped foot in Storrs, 3 weeks later. Today, it's more or less outpatient surgery, doesn't leave a 4 inch scar, and takes 3/4 the time to recover at a world class level.

More recently, I was diagnosed with a tear in my Achilles, as well as peroneal tendinitis. I couldn't walk without a limp and Advil was useless for the pain. I was prescribed shockwave therapy and physical therapy just like a pro athlete would (only difference is they would get it daily and wouldn't have to pay for it.). 2 months later the tear is healed and I can run with no more soreness than a typical 42 year old should have.

Obviously, those are personal and anecdotal, and I am not, nor ever was, a world class athlete. So be that as it may, check out this series of articles regarding the history of strength training in baseball. It's not been around that long.

I don't know what else to tell you other than all the proper programming, science, rest etc. doesn't even come close to filling the void for drugs when it comes to gaining strength. You take two guys who are at the same baseline and give one of them all the best strength "scientist" trainers, rest, meal prep, equipment, biofeedback etc. but with no drugs and give the other guy just a gym and drugs and the second guy will blow away the other guys strength results.

 

[superjohn]

And you're incredibly overconfident about things you're not an expert in.

You "noticed an uptick" in muscled up players, therefore your assertions must be correct.

As home runs rise, baseball's PED problem remains

For the third time what the hell does Keith Hernandez being a smoker have anything to do with any of this. You interjected with some incredible stupid anecdote that relates to nothing and now you're throwing a hissy fit.

 

[Husky25]

I don't know what else to tell you other than all the proper programming, science, rest etc. doesn't even come close to filling the void for drugs when it comes to gaining strength. You take two guys who are at the same baseline and give one of them all the best strength "scientist" trainers, rest, meal prep, equipment, biofeedback etc. but with no drugs and give the other guy just a gym and drugs and the second guy will blow away the other guys strength results.

Where did I say drugs were out of the game? I said it was questionable that they've been curtailed. There are definitely players on PEDs. Know how I'm so sure? There are players still getting suspended for 50 games, even when they know when their test is.

All due respect, SJ (and I do), but you might be a bit out of your depth here.

 

[BlueMAB]

For the third time what the hell does Keith Hernandez being a smoker have anything to do with any of this. You interjected with some incredible stupid anecdote that relates to nothing and now you're throwing a hissy fit.

I explained it in the link with the story, and then explained it again in my first response, you're just being obtuse.

 

[superjohn]

Where did I say drugs were out of the game? I said it was questionable that they've been curtailed. There are definitely players on PEDs. Know how I'm so sure? There are players still getting suspended for 50 games, even when they know when their test is.

All due respect, SJ (and I do), but you might be a bit out of your depth here.

There's this little curly-q thing above your period...

Yes.

You're far too hung up on steroids. As if no one takes PEDs now or as if one cannot possibly weight train without being juiced up. Strength coaches were few and far between in the mid 90's in baseball. EVERY team has a staff now and every player weight trains. For as much as using PEDs might have been curtailed (questionable), proper training, preparation, nutrition, and technological advances in rehab more than fill the void.

Dude all I can do is respond to what you've said. For the fifth time proper training, preparation, technological advances, nutrition, and rehab haven't more than filled the void for drugs. As I keep telling you, you can have all the best of that with no drugs and the guy who is on drugs eats a lot and hits the weights hard and he will gain way more strength than the other guy.

I actually do know a lot about this stuff.

 

[superjohn]

I explained it in the link with the story, and then explained it again in my first response, you're just being obtuse.

You explained how Keith Hernandez (guy who played in the 70's and 80's) being a smoker is relevant to most of baseball in the late 90's and 2000's being on steroids? I missed it, care to explain how this is relevant again?

 

[BlueMAB]

You explained how Keith Hernandez (guy who played in the 70's and 80's) being a smoker is relevant to most of baseball in the late 90's and 2000's being on steroids? I missed it, care to explain how this is relevant again?

No, I explained the point of the story. Which was to refute this idiotic statement that you used to defend your opinion.

Nutrition, proper training, and rehab have also been around forever. Seriously, come on.

My apologies for calling you obtuse, turns out it's just your poor reading comprehension.

 

[superjohn]

No, I explained the point of the story. Which was to refute this idiotic statement that you used to defend your opinion.



My apologies for calling you obtuse, turns out it's just your poor reading comprehension.

So knowledge, analytics, and technology are why players don't smoke in the dugout anymore? Sweet. I was convinced Hernandez was smoking because he thought it was good for him and made him stronger, faster, and an all around better athlete. Thankfully technology and analytics changed all that.

Again, wtf does that have to do with most of the league being on steroids in the late 90's early 2000's?

I don't want to call you stupid, maybe it's just a troll job...

 

[BlueMAB]

I pointed out the fact behaviors have changed. Well. For some people they have. Others remain obtuse to the point they can’t just admit they made a stupid statement.

 

[mauconnfan]

Weight training wasn't as prevalent in the 90's early 2000's as it is now? What???

The majority of the league was on steroids.

I agree with this majority. But the players these days are stronger and it's not close. They don't even look like baseball players for the most part, they look like they can run to the grid iron for the fall and winter. Yelich looks like a "baseball player" Stanton doesn't. I mean only from the old days to the new days comparison. By no means does that exclude Yelich from being the same as most these days, cheating somehow just appearance wise.

 

[mauconnfan]

I appear to be in the minority but I love the direction baseball is headed. I'll never understand people who want to go back to watching sacrifice hunts and bad baseball

Super balls flying all over the place with 5'5 200 lb guys hitting the ball out to the opposite field? And guys who hardly can slide or run the bases? I agree there are some things that make it exciting because we tend to like offense as fans, but the days of the .320/15/110 guys are gone. There's more .210/28/75 guys now and that's kind of pathetic. But it makes them money because that's what they like now. Always loved baseball still watch it I admit it, but I do laugh at the players who suddenly look like the Hulk and think we don't know.