OT: Home Run Derby

[Guapo]

How can there possibly be this much handwringing?

 

[superjohn]

It's an example of how advancements in technology, knowledge, analytics, etc etc. has all provided more information to change athletes' behavior largely for the better. Yes, even since the 90's.

Many guys who use PEDs are doing so to recover faster, not necessarily to look like Barry Bonds. You're focusing on strength alone. But you've oversimplified the entire argument to "steroids", as if there isn't a science to lifting weights in terms of load, speed, reps, recovery time, etc. But you've dug your heels in so just go ahead and pretend like the only difference between 1995 and 2015 is a needle in the arse.

Again, what does this have to do with Keith Hernandez being a smoker?

The thread turned into players being stronger now. That's only going to be the case if they have the same PED problem they had during the "steroid era" which they may. Just the past year or two I have noticed an uptick in more muscled up players than the previous 4 or 5.

When I see nonsense like training science, nutrition, recovery etc. more than fills the void for drugs I'm going to call it out. People are still so incredibly naive to drugs in sports and culture.

 

[Husky25]

Nutrition, proper training, and rehab have also been around forever. Seriously, come on.

No, they haven't.

Guys used to pop amphetamines to recover from the game the night before and drink beers to come down from that night's game. Greenies were a bigger issue than steroids. I wouldn't classify that as proper nutrition and rehab.

I got my completely torn ACL reconstructed in 1995 (by a doctor in the same practice as the Red Sox team orthopedist at the time, incidentally). I was in the hospital for 3 days and it took my over a year to feel pre-surgery comfortable again. Heck, I was barely able to walk without crutches when I stepped foot in Storrs, 3 weeks later. Today, it's more or less outpatient surgery, doesn't leave a 4 inch scar, and takes 3/4 the time to recover at a world class level.

More recently, I was diagnosed with a tear in my Achilles, as well as peroneal tendinitis. I couldn't walk without a limp and Advil was useless for the pain. I was prescribed shockwave therapy and physical therapy just like a pro athlete would (only difference is they would get it daily and wouldn't have to pay for it.). 2 months later the tear is healed and I can run with no more soreness than a typical 42 year old should have.

Obviously, those are personal and anecdotal, and I am not, nor ever was, a world class athlete. So be that as it may, check out this series of articles regarding the history of strength training in baseball. It's not been around that long.

 

[BlueMAB]

Again, what does this have to do with Keith Hernandez being a smoker?

The thread turned into players being stronger now. That's only going to be the case if they have the same PED problem they had during the "steroid era" which they may. Just the past year or two I have noticed an uptick in more muscled up players than the previous 4 or 5.

When I see nonsense like training science, nutrition, recovery etc. more than fills the void for drugs I'm going to call it out. People are still so incredibly naive to drugs in sports and culture.

And you're incredibly overconfident about things you're not an expert in.

You "noticed an uptick" in muscled up players, therefore your assertions must be correct.

As home runs rise, baseball's PED problem remains

For those that read the headline and not the article....

"Connect the dots at your own pleasure or peril. This is the unfortunate toxicity left from The Steroid Era. It has empowered doubt—even though the home run craze is due to a massive change in hitting philosophy more than anything else. "

 

[superjohn]

No, they haven't.

Guys used to pop amphetamines to recover from the game the night before and drink beers to come down from that night's game. Greenies were a bigger issue than steroids. I wouldn't classify that as proper nutrition and rehab.

I got my completely torn ACL reconstructed in 1995 (by a doctor in the same practice as the Red Sox team orthopedist, incidentally). I was in the hospital for 3 days and it took my over a year to feel pre-surgery comfortable again. Heck, I was barely able to walk without crutches when I stepped foot in Storrs, 3 weeks later. Today, it's more or less outpatient surgery, doesn't leave a 4 inch scar, and takes 3/4 the time to recover at a world class level.

More recently, I was diagnosed with a tear in my Achilles, as well as peroneal tendinitis. I couldn't walk without a limp and Advil was useless for the pain. I was prescribed shockwave therapy and physical therapy just like a pro athlete would (only difference is they would get it daily and wouldn't have to pay for it.). 2 months later the tear is healed and I can run with no more soreness than a typical 42 year old should have.

Obviously, those are personal and anecdotal, and I am not, nor ever was, a world class athlete. So be that as it may, check out this series of articles regarding the history of strength training in baseball. It's not been around that long.

I don't know what else to tell you other than all the proper programming, science, rest etc. doesn't even come close to filling the void for drugs when it comes to gaining strength. You take two guys who are at the same baseline and give one of them all the best strength "scientist" trainers, rest, meal prep, equipment, biofeedback etc. but with no drugs and give the other guy just a gym and drugs and the second guy will blow away the other guys strength results.

 

[superjohn]

And you're incredibly overconfident about things you're not an expert in.

You "noticed an uptick" in muscled up players, therefore your assertions must be correct.

As home runs rise, baseball's PED problem remains

For the third time what the hell does Keith Hernandez being a smoker have anything to do with any of this. You interjected with some incredible stupid anecdote that relates to nothing and now you're throwing a hissy fit.

 

[Husky25]

I don't know what else to tell you other than all the proper programming, science, rest etc. doesn't even come close to filling the void for drugs when it comes to gaining strength. You take two guys who are at the same baseline and give one of them all the best strength "scientist" trainers, rest, meal prep, equipment, biofeedback etc. but with no drugs and give the other guy just a gym and drugs and the second guy will blow away the other guys strength results.

Where did I say drugs were out of the game? I said it was questionable that they've been curtailed. There are definitely players on PEDs. Know how I'm so sure? There are players still getting suspended for 50 games, even when they know when their test is.

All due respect, SJ (and I do), but you might be a bit out of your depth here.

 

[BlueMAB]

For the third time what the hell does Keith Hernandez being a smoker have anything to do with any of this. You interjected with some incredible stupid anecdote that relates to nothing and now you're throwing a hissy fit.

I explained it in the link with the story, and then explained it again in my first response, you're just being obtuse.

 

[superjohn]

Where did I say drugs were out of the game? I said it was questionable that they've been curtailed. There are definitely players on PEDs. Know how I'm so sure? There are players still getting suspended for 50 games, even when they know when their test is.

All due respect, SJ (and I do), but you might be a bit out of your depth here.

There's this little curly-q thing above your period...

Yes.

You're far too hung up on steroids. As if no one takes PEDs now or as if one cannot possibly weight train without being juiced up. Strength coaches were few and far between in the mid 90's in baseball. EVERY team has a staff now and every player weight trains. For as much as using PEDs might have been curtailed (questionable), proper training, preparation, nutrition, and technological advances in rehab more than fill the void.

Dude all I can do is respond to what you've said. For the fifth time proper training, preparation, technological advances, nutrition, and rehab haven't more than filled the void for drugs. As I keep telling you, you can have all the best of that with no drugs and the guy who is on drugs eats a lot and hits the weights hard and he will gain way more strength than the other guy.

I actually do know a lot about this stuff.

 

[superjohn]

I explained it in the link with the story, and then explained it again in my first response, you're just being obtuse.

You explained how Keith Hernandez (guy who played in the 70's and 80's) being a smoker is relevant to most of baseball in the late 90's and 2000's being on steroids? I missed it, care to explain how this is relevant again?

 

[BlueMAB]

You explained how Keith Hernandez (guy who played in the 70's and 80's) being a smoker is relevant to most of baseball in the late 90's and 2000's being on steroids? I missed it, care to explain how this is relevant again?

No, I explained the point of the story. Which was to refute this idiotic statement that you used to defend your opinion.

Nutrition, proper training, and rehab have also been around forever. Seriously, come on.

My apologies for calling you obtuse, turns out it's just your poor reading comprehension.

 

[superjohn]

No, I explained the point of the story. Which was to refute this idiotic statement that you used to defend your opinion.



My apologies for calling you obtuse, turns out it's just your poor reading comprehension.

So knowledge, analytics, and technology are why players don't smoke in the dugout anymore? Sweet. I was convinced Hernandez was smoking because he thought it was good for him and made him stronger, faster, and an all around better athlete. Thankfully technology and analytics changed all that.

Again, wtf does that have to do with most of the league being on steroids in the late 90's early 2000's?

I don't want to call you stupid, maybe it's just a troll job...

 

[BlueMAB]

I pointed out the fact behaviors have changed. Well. For some people they have. Others remain obtuse to the point they can’t just admit they made a stupid statement.

 

[mauconnfan]

Weight training wasn't as prevalent in the 90's early 2000's as it is now? What???

The majority of the league was on steroids.

I agree with this majority. But the players these days are stronger and it's not close. They don't even look like baseball players for the most part, they look like they can run to the grid iron for the fall and winter. Yelich looks like a "baseball player" Stanton doesn't. I mean only from the old days to the new days comparison. By no means does that exclude Yelich from being the same as most these days, cheating somehow just appearance wise.

 

[mauconnfan]

I appear to be in the minority but I love the direction baseball is headed. I'll never understand people who want to go back to watching sacrifice hunts and bad baseball

Super balls flying all over the place with 5'5 200 lb guys hitting the ball out to the opposite field? And guys who hardly can slide or run the bases? I agree there are some things that make it exciting because we tend to like offense as fans, but the days of the .320/15/110 guys are gone. There's more .210/28/75 guys now and that's kind of pathetic. But it makes them money because that's what they like now. Always loved baseball still watch it I admit it, but I do laugh at the players who suddenly look like the Hulk and think we don't know.

 

[Husky25]

Dude all I can do is respond to what you've said. For the fifth time proper training, preparation, technological advances, nutrition, and rehab haven't more than filled the void for drugs. As I keep telling you, you can have all the best of that with no drugs and the guy who is on drugs eats a lot and hits the weights hard and he will gain way more strength than the other guy.

I actually do know a lot about this stuff.

No, you haven't. I was talking about how all facets baseball has evolved and gotten better as whole. You latched on to weight training and steroids.

 

[superjohn]

No, you haven't. I was talking about how all facets baseball has evolved and gotten better as whole. You latched on to weight training and steroids.

Come on, follow along. I said players aren't stronger then when the majority of the league was juiced.

The players aren't any stronger, they want the homer so coaches everywhere teach the homer swing like they do the three in basketball and they have manipulated the hell out of the ball. MLB has always bet on the long ball.

Right. Strength and conditioning hasn't improved . . .

if you saw the reds with the sleeveless uniforms ovee the weekend it’s fairly absurd. they look like a national championship crossfit team

You think the players are stronger than they were in 90's early 2000's when the majority of the league was juicing? There is still a good chunk of the league juicing but like 60%-70% or so of the league was back then.

Explain to me how strength and conditioning has improved since then? You get stronger by lifting heavy weights, eating, and taking drugs. Weights and weight lifting haven't changed, the food hasn't changed, the drugs have changed some but I think they're cycling most of the same stuff. I may be naive but I don't think as many MLB players are using as they were in the 90's and early 2000's.

Weight training was not as prevalent as it is now and the training is better. The food might be the same, but the diets and dietitians are better. Therapy/rehab and medical science have all improved and video review technology is so far more efficient and readily available. Guys used to use spring training to get into shape. Players may take October off, but are back training by Thanksgiving.

Another thing, the rosters and positional prototypes have evolved and there is far more specialization now. Dan Quisenberry broke the 10 year single season save mark in 1983. 22 others have a combined 72 seasons with 45 saves or more since then. The 3-true outcomes hitter was rare and strikeouts were to be avoided. Now batters are less protecting the plate and swinging for the fences, sitting on the fastball, with two strikes. A baserunner is worse for the pitcher. Pitchers akin to Greg Maddox and Jamie Moyer were far more the norm than the fireballers like Roger Clemens, who would only top out around 93. A LOOGYs split-finger is 93 nowadays.

Weight training wasn't as prevalent in the 90's early 2000's as it is now? What???

The majority of the league was on steroids.

And I keep telling you over and over, you can have all the sports "science" trainers , dietitians, fancy feedback equipment, recovery etc. and it won't come anywhere close to the person who is taking the drugs and training. Don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. I latched onto it because you said all of that stuff has more than filled the void for drugs which is complete nonsense.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

How is there only reliable data since 2008?

TBH I don't have a good answer as to why, though every single source I could find starts at 2008. My guess is that the data just wasn't being tracked consistently and/or in an available database.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Super balls flying all over the place with 5'5 200 lb guys hitting the ball out to the opposite field? And guys who hardly can slide or run the bases? I agree there are some things that make it exciting because we tend to like offense as fans, but the days of the .320/15/110 guys are gone. There's more .210/28/75 guys now and that's kind of pathetic. But it makes them money because that's what they like now. Always loved baseball still watch it I admit it, but I do laugh at the players who suddenly look like the Hulk and think we don't know.

More guys who can't slide or run the bases as opposed to when? Players are bigger now but generally more athletic I'd argue as baseball teams can more objectively evaluate defense. You're much less likely to find a guy like Ryan Klesko stuck out in the outfield these days. And btw, of the 33 players currently with 20 or more HRs this season, one has a batting average below .220 and six are below .250. For comparison, nine are currently hitting higher than .300. You’re overstating where the game has gone as in the last 50 years, the highest season average for MLB was .267 and last year it was .248.

 

[BLUEDOGHOUSE]

Baseball has a fundamental problem.

The batters are too strong for the stadiums to contain them.

Pitcher velocity + the athletes on defense make home runs the only way to score runs consistently.

Guys pump gas looking to avoid contact and the batters sell out looking to hit bombs.

The result is a boring product. Combine that with expensive and the empty seats are jarring.

For this fan baseball is very exciting:

Beat the Streak leader ties all-time record of 51

For just the second time ever, Beat the Streak presented by MGM Resorts has a player with a 51-game hit streak. That is just six shy of winning $5.6 million for successfully selecting a Major League player to get a hit on a given day 57 consecutive times, which would

www.mlb.com