OT: Giants-Browns trade | Page 4 | The Boneyard

OT: Giants-Browns trade

Rico444 said:
He had 7 sacks in 11 games, that's a 10 sack pace for a full season. You can say he has had trouble staying healthy, but he's been productive when on the field.
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You don't think that's an overly simplistic way to evaluate a DE?

Waquoit said:
Or else what? I don't have to watch them to know that they don't what they're doing. The same fans that have been telling me Eli is elite for the last five years are telling me Vernon isn't any good. That alone makes me think Vernon will thrive with the Browns.
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Or else you look like you're talking out of your ass? What does Eli have to do with the discussion of Vernon?

You admitted you don't watch the Giants, and then proceed to tell Giants fans who have watched every snap of the guy how they are wrong.
 
ConnHuskBask said:
Or else you look like you're talking out of your ass? What does Eli have to do with the discussion of Vernon?
You admitted you don't watch the Giants, and then proceed to tell Giants fans who have watched every snap of the guy how they are wrong.
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Giant fans have been calling Eli "elite" for years. The Giants built the team around him just last year. But he's been washed for at least as long as the last 3 Pats SB's. Pardon me if I give Giant fans talent evaluation skills the consideration they deserve.
 
KembaStepback said:
Vernon just cost too much money for what he was bringing. Often injured and decently productive is not worth his cap hit.
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You can make that argument for sure, but people are saying in this thread that he's not productive anymore and implying that he's washed up. He hasn't been as good as he was when he hit the open market, mostly due to injuries, but he's still a very good edge rusher when he's on the field.

ConnHuskBask said:
You don't think that's an overly simplistic way to evaluate a DE?
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So sacks are a bad way of evaluating a DE, and PFF stats are also a bad measure. How exactly do you evaluate edge rushers?
 
Waquoit said:
Giant fans have been calling Eli "elite" for years. The Giants built the team around him just last year. But he's been washed for at least as long as the last 3 Pats SB's. Pardon me if I give Giant fans talent evaluation skills the consideration they deserve.
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So in this made up scenario where Giants fans are calling Eli elite, you've justified commenting on the play of a guy on a team you didn't watch all season?

Rico444 said:
So sacks are a bad way of evaluating a DE, and PFF stats are also a bad measure. How exactly do you evaluate edge rushers?
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Watch the games?
 
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KembaStepback said:
Vernon just cost too much money for what he was bringing. Often injured and decently productive is not worth his cap hit.
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I’m ticked about Collins but I think his injuries (non reported) were the major factor even over the occasional lost coverage. He fits Seattle perfectly but I would prefer an AFC team like the jets.
 
Rico444 said:
Ok, I do that already? I think the guy is still a very good pass rusher. The numbers back me up.
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I disagree. I don't think that PFF is the holy bible that some make it out to be.

Staying on the field matters. The context of when you make your plays matters.

I don't think Vernon was particularly that effective last year in impacting the games.
 
ConnHuskBask said:
I disagree. I don't think that PFF is the holy bible that some make it out to be.

Staying on the field matters. The context of when you make your plays matters.

I don't think Vernon was particularly that effective last year in impacting the games.
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PFF doesn't have to be the holy bible to be a valuable resource. And yes, Vernon has had trouble staying on the field the last two years and when he has been has probably lost a step from the elite level he was playing at when he signed his contract. He's still very good, and very good pass rushers get paid a ton of money. If he hit the open market right now he would get $15 million a year, easily. Dante Fowler just signed a deal for $14 million next year. Dante Fowler! He had 4 sacks in 16 games (or 3 less than Vernon in 5 more games).
 
Rico444 said:
PFF doesn't have to be the holy bible to be a valuable resource. And yes, Vernon has had trouble staying on the field the last two years and when he has been has probably lost a step from the elite level he was playing at when he signed his contract. He's still very good, and very good pass rushers get paid a ton of money. If he hit the open market right now he would get $15 million a year, easily. Dante Fowler just signed a deal for $14 million next year. Dante Fowler! He had 4 sacks in 16 games (or 3 less than Vernon in 5 more games).
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Fair enough. His age/injuries would really worry me as a Browns fan. That said I guess he can play a complimentary role in Cleveland where as NY he was supposed to be the guy post JPP and I don't think he lived up to that.
 
MervthePurvis said:
I’m ticked about Collins but I think his injuries (non reported) were the major factor even over the occasional lost coverage. He fits Seattle perfectly but I would prefer an AFC team like the jets.
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I didn't want to see Collins go either. I think they just didn't want to pay the 45th best cover safety (per PFF) all that money. I just read an article from PFF I agreed with that say Collins would be a great off ball linebacker. I would have liked to try that move, but obviously wasn't going to happen.
 
KembaStepback said:
True. However I'm not a fan of Haskins. OSU QBs haven't panned out in the NFL lately. Maybe he will be good, but I'm just not a fan.
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To elaborate on this a bit...if the Giants really think Haskins is the guy they should draft him. However, I would start him right away. Deal with the growing pains. Id cut Eli, and move on. Help build the team around Haskins, if that's what they want. I just don't want them to take a QB for the sake of taking a QB. If he's your guy, then great. If not, then take a difference maker on defense or bolster the OL.
 
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KembaStepback said:
To elaborate on this a bit...if the Giants really think Haskins is the guy they should draft him. However, I would start him right away. Deal with the growing pains. Id cut Eli, and move on. Help build the team around Haskins, if that's what they want. I just don't want them to take a QB for the sake of taking a QB. If he's your guy, then great. If not, then take a difference maker on defense or bolster the OL.
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That's sorta my take too. I don't trust Gettleman, but if you're a GM and you're absolutely sold on a guy being your franchise QB, you go out and get him. I'd have the transition mirror what happened with Warner/Eli, let Eli start but if the wheels are off by Week 5, let the new guy play.

The one thing, as I've said before, that I'm completely against is wasting 2nd/3rd/4th round picks on QBs.

Sack up and take your guy, no more half measures.
 
ConnHuskBask said:
So in this made up scenario where Giants fans are calling Eli elite, you've justified commenting on the play of a guy on a team you didn't watch all season?
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Made up scenario? That is some selective amnesia. And my comments are based on John Dorsey's judgement. That's better than 1000 Gint fans watching every game. Kind of like how Burger King didn't spend any money on potential location research, they just built near McDonalds.
 
Apparently the Giants are actually shopping OBJ? I know he can be a pain in the ass sometimes but is he really worth getting rid of without getting a ton back in return? I seriously doubt anyone would give two 1sts for him but I wouldn't want to move a guy that talented for anything less.
 
Rico444 said:
Apparently the Giants are actually shopping OBJ? I know he can be a pain in the ass sometimes but is he really worth getting rid of without getting a ton back in return? I seriously doubt anyone would give two 1sts for him but I wouldn't want to move a guy that talented for anything less.
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If they trade OBJ i’m boycotting
 
Rico444 said:
Apparently the Giants are actually shopping OBJ? I know he can be a pain in the ass sometimes but is he really worth getting rid of without getting a ton back in return? I seriously doubt anyone would give two 1sts for him but I wouldn't want to move a guy that talented for anything less.
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Personally, I think the giants would be smart to get him off their books. Signing a WR to a monster contract is almost never a path to success, especially when they have maybe the worst QB in the league getting him the ball. The giants are guaranteed to be bad next year, perhaps even the worst team in football. A wide receiver isn’t the place to start building a solid foundation. They’d be smart to get their picks and build for the future IMO
 
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ConnHuskBask said:
The one thing, as I've said before, that I'm completely against is wasting 2nd/3rd/4th round picks on QBs.

Sack up and take your guy, no more half measures.
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It's not a bad strategy. The draft is a crap shoot. With obvious variation depending on the year, maybe 1/3 of starting QBs are post Rd 1 picks.

But you should always be drafting QBs anyway. Constantly developing new ones. If you do it right, you'll get cheap, quality insurance, and then maybe something back in trade or a compensatory pick when their contracts run out. Much better than signing a veteran who costs money.

Look at the hit rate on 1st Rd QBs (From 2002 to 2016), of the 45 1st rders, about 21 you could build a team around (not necessarily franchise guys tho). Less than 50%, so it's a crap shoot.
 
Rico444 said:
Apparently the Giants are actually shopping OBJ? I know he can be a pain in the ass sometimes but is he really worth getting rid of without getting a ton back in return? I seriously doubt anyone would give two 1sts for him but I wouldn't want to move a guy that talented for anything less.
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Yeah there's a 100% chance no one is giving 2 1st rdrs for OBJ and the opportunity to give him a $20m cap hit.
 
navery12 said:
This. There's no scenario where trading OBJ makes sense
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Im not saying trade OBJ and from what I understand they aren't shopping him, but listening. There is no harm in that.

For arguments sake...if SF came and offered #2 and another first rounder for OBJ...you flat out say no?
 
CToutlaw34 said:
ok.. he's not Elite.. but, worst QB in the league, though? COME ON LOL
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He very well may be the worst starting QB in the league right now, barring injury to expected starters. Only team with a worse situation is possibly Miami or Denver
 
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KembaStepback said:
Im not saying trade OBJ and from what I understand they aren't shopping him, but listening. There is no harm in that.

For arguments sake...if SF came and offered #2 and another first rounder for OBJ...you flat out say no?
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On draft day if Bosa falls to #2 I maybe consider it. Anyone else then it's an easy no

But the market is also set well below that now, they'd be lucky to get one 1st for him
 
navery12 said:
On draft day if Bosa falls to #2 I maybe consider it. Anyone else then it's an easy no

But the market is also set well below that now, they'd be lucky to get one 1st for him
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I don't think the market is set for him. Brown forced his hand. Giants will not budge on demands of a star player who now looks behaved compared to AB.
 
KembaStepback said:
I don't think the market is set for him. Brown forced his hand. Giants will not budge on demands of a star player who now looks behaved compared to AB.
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The market for these skill guys is always a lot lower than everyone thinks, if you are looking at solely player performance. That $20m price tag (read Cap Hit) is a huge part of the deal. You're basically selling cap relief for a few gambles in the draft.

When someone's getting PAID in the NFL, it's hard to get a lot for them.

Except in very unique circumstances, I'd be shocked if a team gave up a high 1st rd pick for Beckham. Get a 20m per year skill position superstar? Or have a chance at a 'lesser' stud cost controlled for 5 years? When you are talking about a team that is not currently set up to be a success and needs building blocks.

Now you could get a couple of late 1st rounders from a team ready to compete. But again, that's circumstance.

Pittsburgh's loss of leverage really came into play in that they had to lose the player AND eat $22m of dead money.
 
intlzncster said:
The market for these skill guys is always a lot lower than everyone thinks, if you are looking at solely player performance. That $20m price tag (read Cap Hit) is a huge part of the deal. You're basically selling cap relief for a few gambles in the draft.

When someone's getting PAID in the NFL, it's hard to get a lot for them.

Except in very unique circumstances, I'd be shocked if a team gave up a high 1st rd pick for Beckham. Get a 20m per year skill position superstar? Or have a chance at a 'lesser' stud cost controlled for 5 years? When you are talking about a team that is not currently set up to be a success and needs building blocks.

Now you could get a couple of late 1st rounders from a team ready to compete. But again, that's circumstance.

Pittsburgh's loss of leverage really came into play in that they had to lose the player AND eat $22m of dead money.
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Fair point.
Whats working in the Giants favor is that they are not actively shopping him. They can afford to be patient and only deal him if they get blown away. He's not requested a trade at all. He's very likeable in the locker room. While he's expensive, he's also young. Teams will often surprise you. These teams are giving some of these players ridiculous deals in FA. It wouldn't shock me a team that thinks they're a star playmaker away will trade a ton of draft capital for OBJ.

Latest rumor I'm hearing is that an AFC North team is engaged in talks about Beckham. Logic would dictate that its most likely the Browns. They have a mid-round pick. Not sure that pick would be close to enough.
 
KembaStepback said:
Fair point.
Whats working in the Giants favor is that they are not actively shopping him. They can afford to be patient and only deal him if they get blown away. He's not requested a trade at all. He's very likeable in the locker room. While he's expensive, he's also young. Teams will often surprise you. These teams are giving some of these players ridiculous deals in FA. It wouldn't shock me a team that thinks they're a star playmaker away will trade a ton of draft capital for OBJ.

Latest rumor I'm hearing is that an AFC North team is engaged in talks about Beckham. Logic would dictate that its most likely the Browns. They have a mid-round pick. Not sure that pick would be close to enough.
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Yes, not having to make a move is the key piece. I'm still shocked Pittsburgh couldn't salvage this, they got markedly worse, picked up a 2nd and 3rd compensation, and kept 23m on the books. Mind boggling bad management. The should have done everything, everything to immediately salvage the situation. Even if it makes you a bit of a cluster bomb in the short term. 23m dead money sheesh.

The Browns are in a weird spot. They are set up for the future, but are still a couple of years away. But I feel like their impatience may cause them to take on bad contracts that will dampen their future ceiling. Interesting to watch the Browns these days.
 
intlzncster said:
Yes, not having to make a move is the key piece. I'm still shocked Pittsburgh couldn't salvage this, they got markedly worse, picked up a 2nd and 3rd compensation, and kept 23m on the books. Mind boggling bad management. The should have done everything, everything to immediately salvage the situation. Even if it makes you a bit of a cluster bomb in the short term. 23m dead money sheesh.

The Browns are in a weird spot. They are set up for the future, but are still a couple of years away. But I feel like their impatience may cause them to take on bad contracts that will dampen their future ceiling. Interesting to watch the Browns these days.
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Totally agree. Steelers played that horribly wrong. Sounds to me like AB was calling all the shots. I don't care what anyone says, Buffalo wanted him then balked at contract demands. Im guessing AB didn't want to go to Buffalo and make it abundantly clear.

If it were me, I'd have suspended AB for conduct detrimental to the team. Let him sit and waste a year of his prime. Worst case I get hit with a few extra million cap hit. It's worth it to screw him over. Those picks are a joke and you help a team in your conference! No way.
 
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