OT - Duke Freshman opts out | Page 4 | The Boneyard

OT - Duke Freshman opts out

storrsroars said:
What is happening is that there are only 4 surprises. Once the first four balls are picked, the other 10 teams know exactly where they'll be picking. So, I'm positing that it's not a true lottery for those 10 teams.

Is it a strange hill to die on? Sure. But I'm happy to do so. I love to argue.
Expand ...
The thing is there really isn't a hill in the first place my man.

Nobody but you defines the lottery as "the first four picks". If you went into any basketball circle and said that you'd be laughed out of the room.

You're free to feel how you want about what should be called the lottery but the definition is the definition.
 
storrsroars said:
What is happening is that there are only 4 surprises. Once the first four balls are picked, the other 10 teams know exactly where they'll be picking. So, I'm positing that it's not a true lottery for those 10 teams.

Is it a strange hill to die on? Sure. But I'm happy to do so. I love to argue.
Expand ...
Words are given meaning and definitions by collective society. This way, there is less confusion in communication. Using a word to mean something different because it reflects your opinion of a more literal truth isn't a virtue, because it leads to confusion.

There is no right answer between "the teams who participate in the lottery make up the lottery picks" and "the teams picking in the positions awarded by the lottery" should be the "true" "lottery picks". But EVERYONE uses the former grouping as the definition of "the lottery picks". So when speaking to others, the former definition is the literally correct definition.
 
storrsroars said:
What is happening is that there are only 4 surprises. Once the first four balls are picked, the other 10 teams know exactly where they'll be picking. So, I'm positing that it's not a true lottery for those 10 teams.

Is it a strange hill to die on? Sure. But I'm happy to do so. I love to argue.
Expand ...
Haha, by "surprises" you mean winners. Because it's a lottery. There are 4 teams that win the lottery, and 10 teams that lose the lottery. What an amazing take.
 
auror said:
Words are given meaning and definitions by collective society. This way, there is less confusion in communication. Using a word to mean something different because it reflects your opinion of a more literal truth isn't a virtue, because it leads to confusion.
Expand ...
If that were the case, then you fully support and rationalize the diminishing of superlatives like "amazing", "awesome", and "unbelievable", as pretty much everything today is "amazing", "awesome", and "unbelievable" due to how "society" has decided to use those words to describe fairly mundane things and activities. I believe this currently usage of those superlatives has resulted in hyperbole and indeed, confusion.

But that's a debate for a different day.
 
storrsroars said:
Semantics. The first 4 are the actual lottery picks. Picks 5-14 would go in pretty much the same order of W-L record as they would've w/o the lottery. What the lottery does is simply ensure that the worst team picks no worse than #5.
Expand ...
Wait...what? A lottery pick is a lottery pick. The definition of which has already been decided upon and is accepted as standard and normal...1-14. I do love your avatar though. You've got my blessing on that.
 
.-.
superjohn said:
Lol, the guy is a disaster.
Expand ...
I'd love to debate you on that over in the echo chamber. But, for purposes of this thread, he's useful as an example of saying precisely what you mean and not allowing others to twist your words.
 
storrsroars said:
If that were the case, then you fully support and rationalize the diminishing of superlatives like "amazing", "awesome", and "unbelievable", as pretty much everything today is "amazing", "awesome", and "unbelievable" due to how "society" has decided to use those words to describe fairly mundane things and activities.
Expand ...
Lol no. This is a false equivalence. What we're discussing is the original definition of the term, not one that has changed over time.
 
XLCenterFan said:
The definition of which has already been decided upon and is accepted as standard and normal...1-14.
Expand ...

Has it though?

From google (underlining mine)

People also ask
​

What is considered a lottery pick?
A lottery pick denotes a draft pick whose position is determined through the lottery, while a non-playoff team involved in the process is often called a lottery team. Under the current rules, only the top four picks are decided by the lottery, and are chosen from the 14 teams that do not make the playoffs.
 
storrsroars said:
I'd love to debate you on that over in the echo chamber. But, for purposes of this thread, he's useful as an example of saying precisely what you mean and not allowing others to twist your words.
Expand ...
Start a thread over there, I have a lot to say.
 
Considering we hang lottery picks pictures in the practice facility, we are going to have to drastically cut down what we have up if it only means a top 4 pick. Sorry Rudy, Caron, Jeremy, Kemba, Andre, Charlie, Rip, Ray, there’s a guy on the Boneyard who says you weren’t a lottery pick.
 
This seems like it was simply a business decision.
A. He was hurt and performing below where he would healthy
B. His PT & performances were decreasing
C. Odds of him or Duke turning it around were continuously decreasing, fit & other (Covid, coach) factors
D. Duke stinks this year, no NCAA tourney

People seem offended because it exposes the pretense that college basketball matters. To a select few of these players it is only a means to an end. Unfortunately it can matter least to those that are the most talented.

Factors like being on a team, commitment etc.. certainly weigh in, but unfortunately there is a certain amount of money at stake that can out-weigh those factors. It is strictly business here, you don't have to like it but understanding it should make it easier to not pile hatred onto the kid. I'd say a majority of 'yarders argue that leaving school as soon as your draft prospects are high is best, regardless of development considerations. In this case he is clearly not developing so from a draft $$ standpoint the reasons to leave dominate.

PS And I normally hate Dook and Coach K and I mostly believe basketball players playing basketball is the best way to get better at it and earn more money doing it. This seems to be a rare exception.
 
.-.
businesslawyer said:
What’s hard to understand? If one doesn’t think that it is important for someone ELSE to honor their commitments to people, why in the world would you think they would be willing to honor their commitments?
Expand ...
Coach K article after ND loss a week ago. Looks like Coach K could be coaching for next year where Johnson won't help and has decided to go with returning players. That is at least the impression this part of article gives.

This suggests coach K has quit on Johnson, not attempting to make him better by letting him play through mistakes 'cause he is of no future use.




"Freshman Jalen Johnson, likely headed this summer to the NBA where he’s a projected lottery pick, scored only eight points while turning the ball over three times.
But, really, Johnson isn’t relevant to what Krzyzewski was discussing after the game.
Duke’s rare struggling teams played hard like this one but, also like this one, weren’t able to win. Yet they set the stage for teams that did win. And they won big.
Unlike Johnson, Steward and Roach look like multi-year players. They figure to join the next group of top-rated recruits next season to help the Blue Devils forget this year’s losing experience.
“Over the years in our program, when we have had that, you learn your lesson may be better for the long run,” Krzyzewski said. “But for the short run, it is really, it’s tough. It’s just tough, and I have to be their coach, and help them at this time.”"


​

 
Husky68 said:
Coach K article after ND loss a week ago. Looks like Coach K could be coaching for next year where Johnson won't help and has decided to go with returning players. That is at least the impression this part of article gives.

This suggests coach K has quit on Johnson, not attempting to make him better by letting him play through mistakes 'cause he is of no future use.




"Freshman Jalen Johnson, likely headed this summer to the NBA where he’s a projected lottery pick, scored only eight points while turning the ball over three times.
But, really, Johnson isn’t relevant to what Krzyzewski was discussing after the game.
Duke’s rare struggling teams played hard like this one but, also like this one, weren’t able to win. Yet they set the stage for teams that did win. And they won big.
Unlike Johnson, Steward and Roach look like multi-year players. They figure to join the next group of top-rated recruits next season to help the Blue Devils forget this year’s losing experience.
“Over the years in our program, when we have had that, you learn your lesson may be better for the long run,” Krzyzewski said. “But for the short run, it is really, it’s tough. It’s just tough, and I have to be their coach, and help them at this time.”"


​

Expand ...
I think Coach K as the villain here is something we can all get behind.
 
7774 said:
This is just so bizarre. The lottery picks are the 14 teams that don't make the playoffs. They all get ping pong balls in the lottery, and have a chance at the #1 pick. What is even happening here?
Expand ...
It’s the Boneyard. Don’t try to make sense of it.
 
BGesus4 said:
Considering we hang lottery picks pictures in the practice facility, we are going to have to drastically cut down what we have up if it only means a top 4 pick. Sorry Rudy, Caron, Jeremy, Kemba, Andre, Charlie, Rip, Ray, there’s a guy on the Boneyard who says you weren’t a lottery pick.
Expand ...
LOL
 
Husky68 said:
Coach K article after ND loss a week ago. Looks like Coach K could be coaching for next year where Johnson won't help and has decided to go with returning players. That is at least the impression this part of article gives.

This suggests coach K has quit on Johnson, not attempting to make him better by letting him play through mistakes 'cause he is of no future use.




"Freshman Jalen Johnson, likely headed this summer to the NBA where he’s a projected lottery pick, scored only eight points while turning the ball over three times.
But, really, Johnson isn’t relevant to what Krzyzewski was discussing after the game.
Duke’s rare struggling teams played hard like this one but, also like this one, weren’t able to win. Yet they set the stage for teams that did win. And they won big.
Unlike Johnson, Steward and Roach look like multi-year players. They figure to join the next group of top-rated recruits next season to help the Blue Devils forget this year’s losing experience.
“Over the years in our program, when we have had that, you learn your lesson may be better for the long run,” Krzyzewski said. “But for the short run, it is really, it’s tough. It’s just tough, and I have to be their coach, and help them at this time.”"


​

Expand ...
LOL. Every company is hiring people who might in the long run replace you on a daily basis. That's an excuse for not playing out the season? Sorry. It's a reason to transfer out at the end of the season. Plus, if the guy is going to the NBA anyway after this year, how in the world is what K has in mind for next year even relevant to him playing out this season?
 
.-.
krinklecut said:
Sure, if you apply it to pursuit of a dream. Winners and losers “quit” things like leaving a team all the same. Tarnishing this kid as a “quitter” is ridiculous, mean spirited, and the absolute worst kind of fandom.
Expand ...
I didn't say anything about this kid. Simply stating a saying. And he did quit on his teammates. That's a fact.
 
Greedo said:
Personally, I see the whole leaving your college team early to be prepared for the pros thing a morally gray area. Certainly you made a commitment to your university, and they are "paying" you in the form of a scholarship. At the same time I think it's almost impossible for most of us to fathom the decisions these kids are making. Many of them come from impoverished homes where their families are rubbing two sticks together just to get by. They have this opportunity to make enough money to take care of their families for the rest of their lives, and they don't want to screw that up.

It's not as simple as saying "they reneged on a commitment they made to the university and their teammates." Honestly, most of their teammates, having come from a similar background, probably understand and support them. At the end of the day you have to do what's best for you and to take care of your family. If walking away from a college sport part way through the season guarantees you won't get hurt and spoil the opportunity to ensure your family never needs to worry about going hungry again would you do it? It would certainly be a tough decision.
Expand ...


Most former players are lambasting him across media today. He is a terrific talent and will make his money, no doubt, but GMs might rightly question his intangibles. Bouknight, conversely, will be lauded and may even improve his draft position. Bad look for Johnson, and yet another concern for CBB moving forward. Hope it's not a trend.
 
This thread is awesome. There's so many points where it gets derailed its hard to keep up!
My take: Covid changes everything. The NCAA hypocrisy lets these kids "opt-out" even this late in the season, then by definition, there's nothing wrong with it. Its within the rules as they stand by the letter of the law. You wanna argue the spirit of the law is different, fine. But that's usually subjective.
This is not a normal year, and if I'm a kid looking to protect my interests and the rules say I can? Then sorry, I'm outta here! It's business, not personal. Nothing immoral about it, IMO.
 
BGesus4 said:
Considering we hang lottery picks pictures in the practice facility, we are going to have to drastically cut down what we have up if it only means a top 4 pick. Sorry Rudy, Caron, Jeremy, Kemba, Andre, Charlie, Rip, Ray, there’s a guy on the Boneyard who says you weren’t a lottery pick.
Expand ...
In all likelihood, all of the abovementioned would've been drafted exactly where they ended up being drafted and received exactly the same money with or without the "lottery pick" tag.

You forgot Hilton (#12, 2006). Also, Bazz's picture is up there. He went 24th, so not sure if your criteria is valid.

Anyway, everyone wants to pile on this trivial stuff but nobody has replied to the substance of the original post, which was whether JJ's decision to "opt out" may actually improve Bouk's draft position (while diminishing Johnson's), assuming Bouk hits the court again.
 
So some players opt out when their team is having a tough season and their coach seems to give up (Duke, Kentucky). Other teams have players and coaches (the good guys) who become more determined to right the ship. Sounds like a pretty good recruiting tool to me.
 
.-.
ucp990411 said:
So some players opt out when their team is having a tough season and their coach seems to give up (Duke, Kentucky). Other teams have players and coaches (the good guys) who become more determined to right the ship. Sounds like a pretty good recruiting tool to me.
Expand ...
Great point, the possibility of a trend is arguably not worrisome b/c it is at least partially covid related. Add to that, bad things happening at perennial powerhouses leaves room for UConn to rejoin the table. Is it mixing metaphors to say we then are positioned (now & for years to come) to run said table?
 
Huskymagic said:
This is not surprising for a team, program, coach who has adopted the one and done model for aspiring NBA players.

When you take something innocent/pure in theory college sports and defile it by making it an unofficial training camp for the majors, this is what inevitably occurs: DEGRADATION.

Money, greed, and selfishness corrupts the masses. When you have a rat like K promoting such model what else do you expect.

PS: The one thing the NCAA had correctly determined was refusing to pay college athletes. Once they buckled and now making changes to allow players to directly profit while in school, the cat has been let out of the bag. Big mistake.
Expand ...
I had a roommate who was a scholarship athlete for one year over my four year year course of college. He was a cross country/indoor/outdoor track guy. The commitment to sports for him and others like bb players reminded me of pre med students to their studies. The only time we saw these guys was either late at night or at a rare party. The time spent at practices and games and on the road was an incredible demand on their time and energy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,178
Messages
4,555,932
Members
10,441
Latest member
Virginiafan


Top Bottom