OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

[UConnDan97]

My guess would be that happens purely because the European professional leagues are probably the highest paying leagues on average in the world - rather than some developmental thing for Brazil. Klinsmann, I think, has preferred USA players to be overseas - specifically in Europe - for developmental purposes and that's maybe where the thought process could come from that other countries might do the same thing - although I'm pretty sure that was not what zoocougar was writing about.

Most countries have the same thought process except for the big soccer playing nations. In other words, most English stars play in England. Most Italian stars play in Italy. Most Spanish stars play in Spain. Most German stars play in Germany.

The money disparity is why so many Argentine and Brazilian players play in Europe, but their domestic leagues produce very strong teams (ex., Boca Juniors, Gremio, River Plate, Santos). But you are correct that most other countries feel that their players playing in those leagues give them the best chance at developing their skills...

 

[Carl Spackler]

I just used Brazil as an example. Most countries are like this, actually. If you want the most realistic comparison for us, look no further than our first match in Brazil: Ghana.

Ghana "technically" doesn't really have a style of play or a system that they can grow up in. Their domestic league is complete crap. Their players are scattered to the four winds. But they are a strong team! We are going to have our hands full with them.

It's a matter of development of the individuals, regardless of the style that they grow up in or grow up watching. And right now, we just need a little more time as a country to develop. There will be plenty more Dempseys to come, I'm sure...

This - essentially - is why I think the concept that whaler laid out of a 13 year old multi-sport athlete choosing something over soccer because of income potential is simply a flawed argument. The money is out there to be made - the problem as I see it, is that by the time an American soccer player is 13 years old, if they don't have the skills they should have at age 13, that world class players around the globe have at age 13- they have ZERO chance of making the big money as adults.

 

[SubbaBub]

You need the basic skills only someone who spent their childhood playing everyday on their own can develop. Much like playground BB, you can't really develop a killer crossover in college.

Unlike basketball, were height and size have distinct advantages and dribbling, passing, shooting are not a required if you can catch and dunk. Soccer requires every play to be able to control the ball at a certain level, run and dribble, understand the relationships on the field.

Athleticism alone doesn't cut it. These nations are good because every kid grew up playing, so the best are the best as opposed to the US where the best are the best of those chosen. The BB comparison in the US applies here as well. The US is number one for the same reasons, Brazil is number one.

 

[whaler11]

This - essentially - is why I think the concept that whaler laid out of a 13 year old multi-sport athlete choosing something over soccer because of income potential is simply a flawed argument. The money is out there to be made - the problem as I see it, is that by the time an American soccer player is 13 years old, if they don't have the skills they should have at age 13, that world class players around the globe have at age 13- they have ZERO chance of making the big money as adults.

Well obviously I was talking about a 13 year old with that potential but maybe that person doesn't exist if they played anything other than soccer full time to age 13.

 

[LRock34]

My opinion is that soccer is growing and will continue to grow amongst the middle and upper middle class. This will include many african american and other minority players. I do not believe however that soccer will catch on for people living below the poverty line or within certain geographies (South Florida for example) for another 30 to 40 years.

I am an African American college educated father living in an upper middle class neighborhood. 10 years ago I never would have considered soccer for my children. I grew up playing football. Football will always be my first love. Now with that said I'm well aware of the injuries, in particular the brain injuries that have been associated with football. I'm also aware that the average NFL career is something like 2 to 4 years unless you're one of the greats. Thinking about those factors why would I encourage my sons to play football? Not to mention that they will probably end up somewhere in the range of 5ft 10 and 180lbs.

I was a very good athlete growing up. I believe my sons will be as well. I have no idea if they will be good enough to go pro, what I do know however is that they will live healthier lives, have much longer careers and have a much better chance of playing soccer professionally in the US. I think as more time passes, more and more parents w/average size children from educated backgrounds will start to think like me. My 5-10 sons have no shot at the NBA and I don't think I would ever want them to play in the NFL no matter how good they are.

As MLS grows and as you start to see more minority athletes playing for the USMN team I think soccer will grow in lower income neighborhoods...but that is decades away. The infrastucture doesn't exist today. Soccer programs are in the middle class neighborhoods. It will grow and more of our athletes that would normally end up playing 1AA or DII Football will end up being professional soccer players.

 

[Carl Spackler]

It's a pretty simple concept really, that I think we're beating to death. Great players and competition, breeds greater players and greater competition. That's consistent for any sport, across all sports, both team sports, or individual sports in nature.

Some team sports require a lifetime of development of required individual skills among individual athletes to reach the highest team competition levels, and soccer is one of them. Helmet and shoulder pads football is IMNSHO, the greatest team sport on the planet - but is definitely not among the sports that require a lifetime of skills development for individuals to compete at the highest levels.

The USA national soccer team program, is lacking in development of individual skills from the earliest ages in soccer players, and it shows in the team competition that evolves as American players reach adulthood both professionally and internationally. That doesn't mean as a team, we can't compete and win though. that's what makes soccer interesting, for me at least. The strategy and tactics of soccer is fascinating to me, as a learn more and more about it.

It's basically helmet and shoulder football pads football in constant motion, rather than starting and stopping and a lot less physical contact when it comes to advancing the ball to a goal, or defending the ball from reaching the goal.

The one thing I can do without though, is the flopping and crying. Basketball players got nothing on soccer when it comes to acting. I hope that American players develop the rep for really beating the crap out of somebody if they are going to pretend they got shot on the field.

 

[ZooCougar]

I just used Brazil as an example. Most countries are like this, actually. If you want the most realistic comparison for us, look no further than our first match in Brazil: Ghana.

Ghana "technically" doesn't really have a style of play or a system that they can grow up in. Their domestic league is complete crap. Their players are scattered to the four winds. But they are a strong team! We are going to have our hands full with them.

It's a matter of development of the individuals, regardless of the style that they grow up in or grow up watching. And right now, we just need a little more time as a country to develop. There will be plenty more Dempseys to come, I'm sure...

Yeah, I am talking about development that takes place before players reach the point where they are playing professionally.

 

[Carl Spackler]

My opinion is that soccer is growing and will continue to grow amongst the middle and upper middle class. This will include many african american and other minority players. I do not believe however that soccer will catch on for people living below the poverty line or within certain geographies (South Florida for example) for another 30 to 40 years.

I am an African American college educated father living in an upper middle class neighborhood. 10 years ago I never would have considered soccer for my children. I grew up playing football. Football will always be my first love. Now with that said I'm well aware of the injuries, in particular the brain injuries that have been associated with football. I'm also aware that the average NFL career is something like 2 to 4 years unless you're one of the greats. Thinking about those factors why would I encourage my sons to play football? Not to mention that they will probably end up somewhere in the range of 5ft 10 and 180lbs.

I was a very good athlete growing up. I believe my sons will be as well. I have no idea if they will be good enough to go pro, what I do know however is that they will live healthier lives, have much longer careers and have a much better chance of playing soccer professionally in the US. I think as more time passes, more and more parents w/average size children from educated backgrounds will start to think like me. My 5-10 sons have no shot at the NBA and I don't think I would ever want them to play in the NFL no matter how good they are.

As MLS grows and as you start to see more minority athletes playing for the USMN team I think soccer will grow in lower income neighborhoods...but that is decades away. The infrastucture doesn't exist today. Soccer programs are in the middle class neighborhoods. It will grow and more of our athletes that would normally end up playing 1AA or DII Football will end up being professional soccer players.

It's an interesting dynamic you point out. A little over 20 years ago, I have seen soccer played by children in the most poor conditions you can imagine in Africa, no grass, no shoes, or shoes cut open for the toes if they had them, playing in dirt, dusty spaces. Kids having fun and playing as a team with complete hell all around them and happening to them. Actually an inspiring moment. I have also sat in Giants stadium not too long after that, and watched the same exact sport played in the World Cup in 1994 by people of the richest of nations - a much less inspiring moment.

Soccer is an international, multicultural bridging sport. Why the U.S.A. which is such a melting pot of cultures, has yet to date really not embraced the sport is an interesting question that remains unanswered for me. Baseball, basketball and football don't seem adequate to explain it for me. Is it possible that the nature of what the United States was created as the "give us your poor, huddled masses longing for freedom" kind of attitude, that people that came here through the 19th and 20th centuries considered soccer "Un-American?"

I don't know, I'm not so sure soccer is a thing that has much to do with socioeconomic status as you point out, more than it's something that just needs to be pointed out to kids as being "cool" vs. "uncool".

 

[LRock34]

I think it is as simple as Baseball, Basketball and Football. Americans have never taken a real interest in the sport because we loved other things. The difference now is that young people (for the most part) do not love Baseball - there will be a pool of talent there. The 2nd pool of talent will come from parents that would normally push their kids towards football but who are now steering them away from football as a result of the brain research that is coming out.

I think georgraphy will have the biggest influence however. The Football culture of the South may not ever be broken but soccer will have a chance in other sections of the country, particularly the East and West coasts.

A simple way to improve soccer in the US...move soccer season to the spring as opposed fall. If soccer were played in the spring it could tap into this countries football talent.

 

[Waquoit]

My cynical take is that USA kids today don't have the patience it takes to perfect a skill. The best athletes don't have perfect a skill to make a ton of dough in hoop or football, they just have to ball. Soccer takes a ton of skill to be successful. Same with baseball, the best athletes pitch they don't play the field.

 

[meyers7]

I'll take a stab at answering that. I've actually met and spoken with Michael Ballack a few times. I asked him what he thought of Klinsmann and USA soccer. Long story short, he made it clear that he thinks the one real weakness that U.S.A. has is with tight spaces and ball control. We don't develop players from the youngest of ages to have the ball control in small spaces personally and in passing that the other countries you mention that are regularly in the World Cup title conversations. It made a whole lot of sense watching USA soccer afterwards. You watch world class players and they can be in the tightest of spaces, being defended, and have complete control of the ball both dribbling and making passes. It's amazing to watch them make moves and passes in small space. USA players don't have it. So, in answer, I think that we need the strategy of maintaining an open field, and use strengths like speed and long passes and develop tactics that will open up the field for USA players to be competitive on the world stage. If we need to go "small" for lack of a better word in my soccer vocab, having recruited the number of dual citizenship players that have grown up playing overseas - is probably a help if we do end up in situations where players are 1-1 or in small group play in small space. Make sense? Or am I talking out my ? seriously - wondering if it makes sense.

Not just dibbling or ball control in tight spaces, but flat out receiving. If you watch some of the better nations when the ball is passed to them it sticks right to their feet and they have control to do with it what they want. A lot of Americans still, when you watch, the ball will bounce 2-3 yards away from them when they receive the ball and they have to go get it, or take a second (or third) touch to get it under control. By then the defense has reacted and they don't have the time or space to do what they want. The USA is getting better at it than they used to be, but still have a ways to go.

American coaches, youth coaches, work a lot on shooting (of course) but also on passing and dribbling. But not a lot on actually receiving the ball. Similar to basketball, doesn't really matter how good the passes are, if the player can't catch it.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I think it is as simple as Baseball, Basketball and Football. Americans have never taken a real interest in the sport because we loved other things. The difference now is that young people (for the most part) do not love Baseball - there will be a pool of talent there. The 2nd pool of talent will come from parents that would normally push their kids towards football but who are now steering them away from football as a result of the brain research that is coming out.

I think georgraphy will have the biggest influence however. The Football culture of the South may not ever be broken but soccer will have a chance in other sections of the country, particularly the East and West coasts.

A simple way to improve soccer in the US...move soccer season to the spring as opposed fall. If soccer were played in the spring it could tap into this countries football talent.

See, I don't think it's a matter of tapping into talent pools. We will disagree there. I think there are more than enough kids to pull from. The last time I read anything in detail on soccer, soccer was by FAR the most widely played team sport -year round- by kids b/w the ages of about 4-10 years old - across the entire country. It's not until later that kids start picking up different sports. By what I've been told by real soccer people in the world, is that by the time a kid reaches that 10-11 year old range and gets to be 12-13, if they don't have certain ball skills and physical abilities developed - they never will. I do agree with your points, and but I think that the real "tipping point" to use Malcolm Gladwell, is when the majority of those kids that do have the ability at that very young age - start to think it would be cool to play soccer as an adult. THe USA as a country, has failed up until very recent times, to provide that kind of coolness for kids to look for, within our own borders.

 

[SubbaBub]

Not just dibbling or ball control in tight spaces, but flat out receiving. If you watch some of the better nations when the ball is passed to them it sticks right to their feet and they have control to do with it what they want. A lot of Americans still, when you watch, the ball will bounce 2-3 yards away from them when they receive the ball and they have to go get it, or take a second (or third) touch to get it under control. By then the defense has reacted and they don't have the time or space to do what they want. The USA is getting better at it than they used to be, but still have a ways to go.

American coaches, youth coaches, work a lot on shooting (of course) but also on passing and dribbling. But not a lot on actually receiving the ball. Similar to basketball, doesn't really matter how good the passes are, if the player can't catch it.

This is difference in quality that can.ve easily seen from player to player and league to league. There are times when MLS looks like a kick ball tournament. NCAA is even worse. Compare that to the CL, La Liga or EPL and it's plain as day.

 

[meyers7]

That's why I think we're in sort of a transitional period. The dual nation guys are a godsend and it's been great to tap into that. I don't expect that to change much.

I think one of the best things we could do is build some military bases in Brazil or Argentina. Get some dual nation guys from there.

 

[UConnDan97]

Yeah, I am talking about development that takes place before players reach the point where they are playing professionally.

So am I. Ghana doesn't develop their players uniformly at youth ages...

 

[Carl Spackler]

I think one of the best things we could do is build some military bases in Brazil or Argentina. Get some dual nation guys from there.

Planting seeds. LOL.

 

[SubbaBub]

In some ways this is like the UConn FB argument. JK said his goal is to develop an American style of soccer. We'll we've actually had one of those already.

The US has consistently punched above it's weight with fitness, speed, toughness, goalkeeping, with a counter attacking style. All we really need is enough skill to counter with some punch. We aren't going to out talent top sides.

Much like UConn isn't going to out talent the SEC. But, a big physical running game, a stout D, and enough passing to hit back on occasion worked well.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

One key challenge that development of US soccer faces is that from ages 12 and under for the most part, soccer is run by parents like myself, who may or may not have soccer skills and experience themselves. At the same time, the recent consolidation of policies at the Academy level (high school age) that prohibits Academy players from playing on their high schools teams has had a significant negative backlash as it appears to penalize the 99% of soccer players who want to play with their friends in front of their families for the 1% who have the chance to make it big time. Please I am not 100% sold on that more structure will equal better results. Brazil youth soccer has very loose structure and they do just fine.

That ‘what if’ game regarding US athletes and soccer has been played around a lot. Found a copy from 2012 and I bet a more updated version will come out for the Cup in 2014. The overall summary, if speed, agility, power could be translated from the court/field/diamond to the pitch globally for the US, the US would be a monster with the country’s strength in training and vast resources, which is FIFA’s biggest fear.

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/list/201206/what-if-best-american-athletes-played-soccer#3

And PS, year-round soccer and the rise of across is absolutely killing baseball where I live in New Jersey.

 

[rich1122]

You need elite athletes. In the US there are a multitude of other sports that compete for the same kids. Now there is Lacrosse in addition to football baseball and basketball. We are a big country but traditional sports just overtake everything. Soccer is niche. In other countries they play soccer for the most part.

 

[ZooCougar]

It's an interesting dynamic you point out. A little over 20 years ago, I have seen soccer played by children in the most poor conditions you can imagine in Africa, no grass, no shoes, or shoes cut open for the toes if they had them, playing in dirt, dusty spaces. Kids having fun and playing as a team with complete hell all around them and happening to them. Actually an inspiring moment. I have also sat in Giants stadium not too long after that, and watched the same exact sport played in the World Cup in 1994 by people of the richest of nations - a much less inspiring moment.

Soccer is an international, multicultural bridging sport. Why the U.S.A. which is such a melting pot of cultures, has yet to date really not embraced the sport is an interesting question that remains unanswered for me. Baseball, basketball and football don't seem adequate to explain it for me. Is it possible that the nature of what the United States was created as the "give us your poor, huddled masses longing for freedom" kind of attitude, that people that came here through the 19th and 20th centuries considered soccer "Un-American?"

I don't know, I'm not so sure soccer is a thing that has much to do with socioeconomic status as you point out, more than it's something that just needs to be pointed out to kids as being "cool" vs. "uncool".

Carl,

Did you see those kids in Africa playing soccer when you were doing Navy SEAL Black Ops with Bruce Willis?

 

[ZooCougar]

See, I don't think it's a matter of tapping into talent pools. We will disagree there. I think there are more than enough kids to pull from. The last time I read anything in detail on soccer, soccer was by FAR the most widely played team sport -year round- by kids b/w the ages of about 4-10 years old - across the entire country. It's not until later that kids start picking up different sports. By what I've been told by real soccer people in the world, is that by the time a kid reaches that 10-11 year old range and gets to be 12-13, if they don't have certain ball skills and physical abilities developed - they never will. I do agree with your points, and but I think that the real "tipping point" to use Malcolm Gladwell, is when the majority of those kids that do have the ability at that very young age - start to think it would be cool to play soccer as an adult. THe USA as a country, has failed up until very recent times, to provide that kind of coolness for kids to look for, within our own borders.

How many people are playing soccer is not a measure of effectiveness. It's how many people are being coached competently. When we get to that critical mass of players that are being coached as competently as kids in Germany and other countries then look out.

The other thing to consider, is that those of us in our thirties grew up without the opportunity to watch quality soccer. Kids these days who watch on TV have the chance to see what really good soccer looks like and it will affect their development positively.

Think about it, most of us who played football might not have played organized football until were in high school. But since we grew up watching it, most kids can put on the pads and pretty much know what to do better than a kid from Belgium would.

 

[ZooCougar]

You need elite athletes. In the US there are a multitude of other sports that compete for the same kids. Now there is Lacrosse in addition to football baseball and basketball. We are a big country but traditional sports just overtake everything. Soccer is niche. In other countries they play soccer for the most part.

As a participatory sport, soccer is far from niche. It's just that quality instruction is scarce.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Carl,

Did you see those kids in Africa playing soccer when you were doing Navy SEAL Black Ops with Bruce Willis?

No. That was the other time.

 

[Carl Spackler]

As a participatory sport, soccer is far from niche. It's just that quality instruction is scarce.

To my knowledge, that's what USA Soccer under Klinsmann's watch is working to change, all the way down to U-8.

 

[ZooCougar]

So am I. Ghana doesn't develop their players uniformly at youth ages...

It doesn't need to be uniform. I doubt Brazil is as uniform as people would imagine, the kids just have a ton of time and space to play tons, they don't need to get in a minivan and go to practice. They just wake up and find a group of kids and copy what their heroes are doing in the alley, or on the patch of dirt out back. It's just part of the culture.