OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread | Page 33 | The Boneyard

OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

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Eh, don't think so really. Gridiron football, even Martz's kind is still based on specific assignments (blocking assignments, route assignments). Receiver reads are only to say, I'm gonna run this pattern or that pattern, no I'm gonna make up my own pattern. Even a QB who has to decide who he is going to throw too, which seems like on the fly decision making, isn't really. He is going through a progression that he has practiced over and over. I suppose when a play breaks down and a QB is run out of the pocket and receivers have run their routes, then it's on the fly decisions, but that's not what any coach/player wants to happen. That's when things have gone wrong.

As for soccer practicing to be able to create/think on the fly. They play the game a lot. Most coaches/players say "the game is the best teacher". They do lots of small sided games, 4v4, 5v5, etc. where they learn to create space, move into space, deny space, pass into space, deny passing lanes, etc. They learn to create their triangles and diamonds to be able to move the ball and give the passer options. Playing the game gives the passer/dribbler the experience of trying out all the different options, or creating/seeing new ones.


Alright, now we're talking.....only in the most inflexible and basic offensive play calling systems is there no room for players to do anything except exactly what they're programmed to do. What Martz did with the Rams - and he was able to do it b/c he players smart enough, skilled enough, and communicating well enough, was to incorporate a new wrinkle into the Sid Gillman, Don Coryell basics of stretching the field both vertically and horizontally. It's called many different things now, but it's basically a 'choice' route tree. BTW: Building a football offensive play calling system, specifically a passing attack, is a lot more than WR's running single route assignments. Each downfield option to throw the ball (up to 5 on any down) - has it's own specific route tree - literally b/c when you draw it up you're basically drawing a tree trunk with branches - there will be numbering systems, letters, etc. whatever the playbook is written up as - to identify with specific branch of the tree is supposed to happen on any given play. But with more dynamic offenses, you don't have the only one option in the play call, players will have multiple options on where to get on the field based on the defensive alignment. The Rams offense back then, used the short crossing routes out of the backfield as the primary read for those things. It was an amazing offense to watch back then, because when the deep balls would be thrown, Kurt Warner would drop back 3 steps from under center, and let loose a very high arcing ball deep that based on the original formation at the line of scrimmage, looked like he was throwing away to open space, especially when defenses would bring pressue and blitz, but would hang up in the air for awhile, and then a receiver would run under it and catch it.

Watching these long ball passes to open space in soccer is essentially the same thing, the player passing knows where the open space is going to be, and knows he's got a player that can get there.

Most sophisticated passing offenses, from high school up through pros use some variation of the choice routes since the 1999-2001 NFL seasons and the Rams success with it, but it requires a ton of practice - and------decision making on the fly - from multiple players on the offense. QB and downfield receiving options.

Other examples of the decision making in football as well - involve blocking - blocking is not quite as simple as line up and hit the guy in front of you. There are adjustments that need to be made at the line of scrimmage regularly with regards to matching up the offensive front with defensive front 7. BTW - we absolutely sucked at this in the past 2 1/2 seasons under George Deleone. THe guy was a complete clusterf-ck of coach. With a veteran center returning, our old OL coach back, and a whole bunch of people that seem to be able to motivate and communicate well, I hope and expect that to improve......but even more so - the QB and backfield have to looking at the spacing on the field, and understanding the offensive play call, and making decisions about who to block on a pass protection.

This is the biggest reason why most tailbacks coming into college from high school, or into the NFL from college, do not play regularly for at least a season or two - it takes a lot of training and practice to be able to be back there, and make the right decisions about who to block.

From the other perspective, which is my favorite, you'll hear DL's, linebackers and especially safeties, and MLB's talking about making sure their "fits" are right. THey are not talking about fitness or having a fit - they are talking about filling spaces. Leveraging the offense - if one single player takes a bad angle on making contact, and doesn't get their "fit" right - especially from the back line of the defense - it can mean the difference between squashing a play at the line of scrimmage, or giving up a huge play.

THis happened when he crumbled against Michigan late in the game last season. One single player goes to the wrong shoulder, of the offensive player, and fills the wrong gap, and the play goes for a touchdown. Those guys back there, on the last level of the D, need to make choices on the fly too.

The thing that is very consistent for me between the two sports, is that offense is about creating space on the field to advance the ball, and defense is about taking away space to stop the ball.

THis is why it would be interesting for me, to learn how soccer practices are set up, to help players understand spacing and decision making
 
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Eh, don't think so really. Gridiron football, even Martz's kind is still based on specific assignments (blocking assignments, route assignments). Receiver reads are only to say, I'm gonna run this pattern or that pattern, no I'm gonna make up my own pattern. Even a QB who has to decide who he is going to throw too, which seems like on the fly decision making, isn't really. He is going through a progression that he has practiced over and over. I suppose when a play breaks down and a QB is run out of the pocket and receivers have run their routes, then it's on the fly decisions, but that's not what any coach/player wants to happen. That's when things have gone wrong.

As for soccer practicing to be able to create/think on the fly. They play the game a lot. Most coaches/players say "the game is the best teacher". They do lots of small sided games, 4v4, 5v5, etc. where they learn to create space, move into space, deny space, pass into space, deny passing lanes, etc. They learn to create their triangles and diamonds to be able to move the ball and give the passer options. Playing the game gives the passer/dribbler the experience of trying out all the different options, or creating/seeing new ones.

FWIW: There is no way to find a common ground on what "decision making on the fly" can mean in both sports. The difference obviously is the starting and stopping of play and the line of scrimmage. The process of making decisions during the play of the game, offensive or defensive, and then actually making things happen though? It's happening at lightning speed in American football, as compared to soccer. It may not seem like it, with the starting and stopping and standing around that happens in football between whistle blows for a live ball, but when the whistle blows, if you haven't already made the correct decisions in a split second on what to do, you get your ass knocked down. Lots more time in soccer to do stuff and think.

BTW: Before some jackwagon makes some more comments about holiday inns, know it all, etc....I'm writing this to you, because I don't recognize you around here, and I enjoy the perspective of learning new things - and soccer is something new to me, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure what your experience with football is, but making the assumption, adn we know what ass u me can mean, but whatever...just making the assumption that perhaps you don't get into American football the way I do..
 

SubbaBub

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meyers7 said:
There was an article I read (today? yesterday?) about Spain's players not only have long club season's (so do most of the good teams), but also Spain has played long tournaments. Final of 2010 WC, 2008 and 2012 Euros, Confed Cup last year. And on top of that they've been milking the out of being WC champs by playing friendlies all over the place.

Maybe it did wear them down??

Maybe a few of them should have taken a sabbatical?
 
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Maybe a few of them should have taken a sabbatical?

Ha...see where you are going. good point.

But also made me think....if you poll NBA players, I don't think I am out of line in suggesting the overwhelming majority place a greater emphasis in winning an NBA title v. a gold medal.

Polling elite pro soccer players, where would it come down in terms of Champions League title v. World Cup title? I have nothing to base this on in that I cannot say I follow it too closely, but I'm thinkning the CL wins out.

...and since I am riffing....When you look at European powerhouses who draw the world's best, like Real Madrid (Ronaldo-portugal, Casillas-Spain, Bale-Wales, dont know any more players) and Barcelona (Messi-Argentina, Pique/Fabregas-Spain, sure there are more but do not know any other players), even though this is outside the realm of possibility, .....would they theoretically be odds on favorites to win World Cup? I mean Brazil's freaking goalie plays in Toronto have to think thats a weakness if going against a stacked club team.
 
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Initial thoughts on England/Uruguay…

· Very questionable calls from the Spanish referee that appear to be significantly favoring Uruguay, for example, they should be playing with 10 men now

· If the ref does not balance things out, this game could get ugly as Uruguay continues to be very physical and England is bound to get frustrated and will retaliate

· Uruguay’s defense and keeper looks shaky; but they look better than they did against Costa Rica

· Suarez, now with a goal, does not look hurt at all, was he ‘saved’ specifically for this game?

· England can’t put the damn ball in the net
 

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FrostyNuggets said:
Ha...see where you are going. good point.

But also made me think....if you poll NBA players, I don't think I am out of line in suggesting the overwhelming majority place a greater emphasis in winning an NBA title v. a gold medal.

Polling elite pro soccer players, where would it come down in terms of Champions League title v. World Cup title? I have nothing to base this on in that I cannot say I follow it too closely, but I'm thinkning the CL wins out.

...and since I am riffing....When you look at European powerhouses who draw the world's best, like Real Madrid (Ronaldo-portugal, Casillas-Spain, Bale-Wales, dont know any more players) and Barcelona (Messi-Argentina, Pique/Fabregas-Spain, sure there are more but do not know any other players), even though this is outside the realm of possibility, .....would they theoretically be odds on favorites to win World Cup? I mean Brazil's freaking goalie plays in Toronto have to think thats a weakness if going against a stacked club team.

I would say they are equally important for different reasons.

Most top club teams would beat their international counterparts. That's because the rosters are filled to fit a system and any holes (like Brazilian GK's) can be addressed. It's not glamorous to be a GK in Brazil, but it is in the US where other sports require hand eye coordination and athleticism.

Therefore, US on average produces more GK talent than you would expect. Since, soccer is generally less popular here, we produce fewer quality field players.

In turn, a team like Ghana who ran out some pretty impressive physical species with a lot of individual skill. There status as a poor nation doesn't jive with advanced training and development techniques or high paying domestic or development leagues hence, not great at defensive or offensive tactics and team play.
 
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Ha...see where you are going. good point.

But also made me think....if you poll NBA players, I don't think I am out of line in suggesting the overwhelming majority place a greater emphasis in winning an NBA title v. a gold medal.

Polling elite pro soccer players, where would it come down in terms of Champions League title v. World Cup title? I have nothing to base this on in that I cannot say I follow it too closely, but I'm thinkning the CL wins out.

...and since I am riffing....When you look at European powerhouses who draw the world's best, like Real Madrid (Ronaldo-portugal, Casillas-Spain, Bale-Wales, dont know any more players) and Barcelona (Messi-Argentina, Pique/Fabregas-Spain, sure there are more but do not know any other players), even though this is outside the realm of possibility, .....would they theoretically be odds on favorites to win World Cup? I mean Brazil's freaking goalie plays in Toronto have to think thats a weakness if going against a stacked club team.


No way, WC is way higher in precedence than CL.
 
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I would say they are equally important for different reasons.

Most top club teams would beat their international counterparts. That's because the rosters are filled to fit a system and any holes (like Brazilian GK's) can be addressed. It's not glamorous to be a GK in Brazil, but it is in the US where other sports require hand eye coordination and athleticism.

Therefore, US on average produces more GK talent than you would expect. Since, soccer is generally less popular here, we produce fewer quality field players.

In turn, a team like Ghana who ran out some pretty impressive physical species with a lot of individual skill. There status as a poor nation doesn't jive with advanced training and development techniques or high paying domestic or development leagues hence, not great at defensive or offensive tactics and team play.

Ha! In some ways you could say that soccer explains the world.
 
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Wow, Rooney gets the monkey off his back and equalizes against Uruguay. Both teams desperately need a win here -- though arguably Uruguay more since they have Italy left and England have Costa Rica.
 

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Not offsides when it comes off the defender.
 
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Liverpool fans should be nervous, Rodgers may be on the short list for the next Manager of England's national team. He'd be on mine, but the FA isn't returning my calls, so who knows. .
 
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I'm listening on radio and JP and Tommy are adamant it was offsides.

Definitely not. Gerrard headed it backwards. Suarez was onside when it happened. If a defender hits it, you're not offside, I believe -- also, there's no offsides on goal kicks.
 

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Polling elite pro soccer players, where would it come down in terms of Champions League title v. World Cup title? I have nothing to base this on in that I cannot say I follow it too closely, but I'm thinkning the CL wins out.
I don't think so. WC only comes once every 4 years. And they have to make the squad to even get into the WC. CL is every year. And you can still have shots at CL after you've retired from the National Team. WC title is much more elusive.

I'll agree with the NBA players though. For that matter Gold medal does not mean that much to soccer players either.
 

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Definitely not. Gerrard headed it backwards. Suarez was onside when it happened. If a defender hits it, you're not offside, I believe -- also, there's no offsides on goal kicks.
That was close. I've heard it was only Gerrard, but I still haven't seen a replay that shows that. Maybe I just missed a replay.
 

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An Olympic gold medal in basketball doesn't rate for an obvious reason.

For most of the game's history there wasn't any competition. If the same
country had been winning the World Cup for eternity it would be much less popular.
 

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England was clearly the last to touch the ball and Suarez would have definitely been called offsides, had the ball gone off Uruguay. He was offsides by about 4 feet. The side judge was right there.
 

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Liverpool fans should be nervous, Rodgers may be on the short list for the next Manager of England's national team. He'd be on mine, but the FA isn't returning my calls, so who knows. .
Why would it matter to Liverpool? Does the FA not allow the national coach to also coach a club team?? I have no clue b/c it's a different country but we allow our Olympic coaches to coach NBA/College teams.
 

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I've been on a nice little run in this WC. Uruguay was very nice today at +290...

Can anyone explain how the US is +410 on Saturday? No one is more down on how they looked Monday than I.... but these European teams can't be worse in South America. Oh the Dutch look good? They beat Spain and fought the frigging Socceroos to the death.

4.1:1 on the US to win Sunday seems insane.
 
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