Athletes are some of the most visible people and most celebrated in our society. Gay people have been some of our most marginalized. creating discontinuity between these two facts incites and encourages social change. Moreover, when it comes to male athletes in particular, gay athletes confound a number of conceptions of masculinity and sexuality in society at large. I hope this clears up your confusion.As a society why does Sports and Sexuality need to be in the same conversation? Who cares which way athletes lean towards in their sexual lives. We as fans should only care about how the athlete perform in their chosen sports endeavor. I for one wish that we as a society didn't need or want to know what a person's sexual identify is.
Maybe some students feel that it is important to challenge the leadership of their faith community to reconsider Biblical passages and change the way in which they relate to the least of these in society, including LGBT community members. Nothing changes unless individuals are willing to confront the power structures of society, including religious structures. At the same time it is then the option of faith communities to enforce what they believe and publicly exclude who they choose. Then their positions are made manifest and their intolerance is clear.Well when she chose Baylor, she knew what kind of school it was, what it's beliefs were. I see no problem with respecting that.
So you would have no problem with people joining your church and telling you and your church you were wrong in your biblical interpretation (not specifically this issue, but any issue)? I highly doubt that.Maybe some students feel that it is important to challenge the leadership of their faith community to reconsider Biblical passages and change the way in which they relate to the least of these in society, including LGBT community members. Nothing changes unless individuals are willing to confront the power structures of society, including religious structures. At the same time it is then the option of faith communities to enforce what they believe and publicly exclude who they choose. Then their positions are made manifest and their intolerance is clear.
If no one was willing to oppose the powers we still would not have civil rights.
If we respect her right come out publicly, can't we also respect her choice not to do so? The kid had enough on her plate. I understand your point, and don't think that you are being mean spirited, but I think I'm inclined to defer to her judgement as to timing. Ecclesiastes 3:1I'm not saying she was obliged to say something earlier. But -- leaving Griner aside -- I do get tired of the meme that college kids are too young to act like grown-ups. I and a dozen of my fellow students faced arrest in a non-violent anti-war protest my freshman year at UConn. Hundreds of my fellow students and I were arrested in a non-violent anti-racism sit-in my junior year. And, as head of the student government, I regularly had a beer at the Rathskellar on Gay and Lesbian night each week, just as I met with other interest groups. And all that was in the early 70s, mind you. Just because you are a teenager/young twenty-something doesn't mean you should skip out on your social responsibilities or subsidize the hypocrisy of the school you attend.
I'm not saying Griner HAD to speak up, but I do wish she had, and I would respect her a lot more if that had been the case. To paraphrase Luke 12:48, from those to whom much has been given, more is expected. I admire Griner's basketball talents, but I have more respect for the straight and GLBT students at Baylor like Samantha Jones and Susan Duty who had the courage to raise their voices within the belly of the beast.
I have that every week and always have. Our denomination gives that authority to the local congregation. Since four years ago our congregations are able to call openly gay pastors in committed lifelong relationships to their congregation. Congregations are, also, able to bless relationships as allowed by the local state laws IF the congregation chooses to do so. I have been attacked by name from the pulpit by local conservative pastors and had things said that are not true about our ministry. It has been said I have done gay marriages, I have not, nor will I until the congregation is ready to take that action. Part of the skill of leadership is maintaining pressure towards change and growth but trusting and respecting the body to act. There is no reason to hate those who disagree with us, instead we teach and encourage. October 1st will be 25 years in this parish. The people pretty much know what to expect and I am still here.So you would have no problem with people joining your church and telling you and your church you were wrong in your biblical interpretation (not specifically this issue, but any issue)? I highly doubt that.
Agreed. No fanfare, no press conference, just being who she is.Congrats to Griner for being out and proud. Actually, it's something I don't think I've ever read about her before. It's cool that she just slid it into regular conversation like that.
I'm not saying she was obliged to say something earlier. But -- leaving Griner aside -- I do get tired of the meme that college kids are too young to act like grown-ups[/quote ]
Although it's been many years since I worked on College campuses, I did so for almost 15 years. As a staff member, what used to frustrate me occassionally, is that college students kinda "pick and choose" when they want to "act like grown-ups". Sometimes, it's in their best interest to be all indignant because they're not being treated as adults, and sometimes it's in their best interest to be a kid.
Not a new nor startling revelation - society has always struggled with age-appropriate rights and responsibilities (voting, driving, smoking, drinking, military service, marriage, consent, etc.). Anybody who has had high-school age daughters know that a 15-17 year old sometimes acts like they're 11, and sometimes acts like they're 21.
I basically agree with maddoggy when he(?) says that college kids aren't too young to act like grown-ups. But, just the phrase "college kids" says a lot. It's their choice, often, as to whether they will or will not behave like a grown-up.
Someday that will be the case. It is not yet. Every person who stands up in every profession including sports helps others, especially, young people as they struggle with their sexual identity and how they fit into society because while it is changing and it gets better we aren't there yet.
Like I said, I highly doubt that. I've been in plenty of churches where there has been division in the church. I've never seen it supported.I have that every week and always have.
You are assuming you are right. My point was people coming in and disagreeing with you and the church and wanting to change you and the church. Why would you try to change them or resist the change if you thought Baylor shouldn't try to change the people (or resist the change) who join it? A little hypocritical don't you think? (and yes I know everyone is a hypocrite)Part of the skill of leadership is maintaining pressure towards change and growth but trusting and respecting the body to act. There is no reason to hate those who disagree with us, instead we teach and encourage.
A lot of "adults" are like that too.Although it's been many years since I worked on College campuses, I did so for almost 15 years. As a staff member, what used to frustrate me occassionally, is that college students kinda "pick and choose" when they want to "act like grown-ups". Sometimes, it's in their best interest to be all indignant because they're not being treated as adults, and sometimes it's in their best interest to be a kid.
I hope they would too. Hope that would not even be a question.I hope that Baylor allows her to graduate.
I have sons that are 18 and 16. I asked them how they feel about gay marriage and they shrugged. I asked them how they feel about gays and they shrugged again. I'm glad to see that their generation isn't going to judge others by whom they date or marry.
Like I said, I highly doubt that. I've been in plenty of churches where there has been division in the church. I've never seen it supported.
You are assuming you are right. My point was people coming in and disagreeing with you and the church and wanting to change you and the church. Why would you try to change them or resist the change if you thought Baylor shouldn't try to change the people (or resist the change) who join it? A little hypocritical don't you think? (and yes I know everyone is a hypocrite)
The point is, if a person is going to join a group (church, university, club, etc.), they should have similar beliefs. If not, then join something else. But, if they still want to join that group, then at least have the decency to respect that groups beliefs.
Good point, but to be fair, they did bring it up in a Sports Illustrated article. Kind of opening themselves to conversation.Are we having fun discussing people's sexual orientation and their personal lives?
I"ll tread on dangerous ground here, which will probably result in the thread being locked.
Perhaps if people didn't try to force their views and lifestyles on others, the acceptance would happen at a faster pace. Perhaps if some in the LGBT community were more tolerant of the views of the people that don't agree with their lifestyle, then their views would be more accepted. People are reluctant to change when they perceive they are being forced to accept something they don't agree with. Violence, bullying or other forms of destructive criticism should not be tolerated because of a person's lifestyle. However, because a person doesn't agree with a lifestyle and lets others live their lifestyle without any form of objection, then that person is not a bad person. Some in the LGBT community believe a person has to fully endorse their lifestyle and if they don't then that person is a bad or immoral person. Sorry I don't believe that.
I saw no reason for ESPN to address this issue with the 3 to See. Sports fans should only care about how they performed on the court in College and how they will perform in the WNBA.
The thread has been civil thus far. Let's see what happens.I"ll tread on dangerous ground here, which will probably result in the thread being locked.
I think my kids (24, 22, 21) though being pretty conservative (at least as kids go) feel pretty much the same way. And most of their friends, at least from what I have interacted with them, feel the same way.I have sons that are 18 and 16. I asked them how they feel about gay marriage and they shrugged. I asked them how they feel about gays and they shrugged again. I'm glad to see that their generation isn't going to judge others by whom they date or marry.
Congrats to Griner for being out and proud. Actually, it's something I don't think I've ever read about her before. It's cool that she just slid it into regular conversation like that.
Really doubt anything on BY will be locked over something that does not revolve around player bashing.I"ll tread on dangerous ground here, which will probably result in the thread being locked.
Perhaps if people didn't try to force their views and lifestyles on others, the acceptance would happen at a faster pace. Perhaps if some in the LGBT community were more tolerant of the views of the people that don't agree with their lifestyle, then their views would be more accepted. People are reluctant to change when they perceive they are being forced to accept something they don't agree with. Violence, bullying or other forms of destructive criticism should not be tolerated because of a person's lifestyle. However, because a person doesn't agree with a lifestyle and lets others live their lifestyle without any form of objection, then that person is not a bad person. Some in the LGBT community believe a person has to fully endorse their lifestyle and if they don't then that person is a bad or immoral person. Sorry I don't believe that.
I saw no reason for ESPN to address this issue with the 3 to See. Sports fans should only care about how they performed on the court in College and how they will perform in the WNBA.
It's not a "lifestyle", but a life. She was sharing her life, just as others share their lives about their boyfriends, husbands, kids, etc. We heard the same thing about acceptance (slower pace, don't force it on us, etc) regarding women's rights, civil rights, etc. Minorities who are discriminated against face even more discrimination by telling them to slow down, don't go so fast, etc. When exactly will it be okay? I've never understood how gay people wanting to get married affects the daily lives of others who are not gay, or who may not agree with gay marriage. If you don't want to marry a gay person, then don't.
Outstanding piece on it by hoopfeed (no not me) here:
http://www.hoopfeed.com/content/201...rt-and-then-theres-noh8-prop-8-and-ken-starr/