OT: Olympics: U.S. Women’s Soccer

[stamfordhusky]

One other thing that some casual soccer observers may not know is that games decided on a PK shootout (officially "kicks from the penalty mark") are almost always categorized as ties in the official records, be it a World Cup, Olympics, Euro, Gold Cup, NCAA tournament, etc. Today's game shows up in the record book as a tie, as is the U.S. win over China in 1999 and all other games where PK's were used to decide who advanced.

 

[D J B]

As someone who never played soccer in my youth and who is at best an uneducated viewer, I have an honest question to which I truly don't know the answer:

On the last two USA goals that were ruled offside (by Morgan and Press), it appeared to me that it would have been fairly easy for Alex or Kristin to take one step back so there would be no question about their onside position, and that they could have scored the goal just as readily if they had done that. True? If so, why didn't they? Is it just indiscipline? Why give the ref a chance to make an adverse judgment call when you can score without doing that? Or is there some subtlety of the game that I am missing?

It's a subtlety of the game that you are missing, but it would take about a four page comment to thoroughly explain it. There is a very basic note about it in a comment above, and I hope that helps. Think of it this way...a player (you) is running full speed down the field into a nest of defenders spread along a defensive line. A teammate kicks the ball and sends it to you. Where exactly are you in relation to those defenders and the goal at that exact moment? Were you watching your teammate kick it, or were you listening for the sound of it, or were your attentions on the goal and the keeper? Were your eyes on every one of those defenders? You simply can't do that. Especially if those defenders are trying to trap you offside.

Soccer forwards (especially attackers like Morgan and Press) are always trying to put themselves into position to receive the ball as far forward as possible. They are extremely good at finding the seams and running into open space, often working together to pull the defense apart. If the defending team is good at their job, it's almost impossible for the attackers to pay attention to exactly where they are vertically on the field (once again running at full speed).

VAR (video assisted referee) is relatively new and is primarily used in FIFA sanctioned events such as the World Cup, or now in the Olympics. Until only a few years ago, an offside call was totally the responsibility of the side judge and the referee, and was usually a call based on a few inches or a foot or more. With VAR, it's a matter at most an inch or two, or even less. An Alex Morgan goal against Australia was recalled because she was ruled 1/2 inch offside. Instant replay has come to soccer for better or worse, and players are learning how to deal with it. It isn't lack of discipline. It's simply learning and adapting to a much smaller allowance for error.

By the way, a side judge in calling an offside doesn't rely solely on a visual reference. They are watching the players along the offside line and are listening for the sound of the ball being struck by the player sending the ball forward. (Soccer balls are designed to have a very distinct and loud sound being kicked.) Usually, the flag goes up instantly, but other times the side judge has to replay it in their head to get it right.

OK, I'm done. Not quite four pages, but working on it.

 

[D J B]

Just prior to the first kick, the US team was lined up as follows in the center circle: Lavelle, Morgan, Press, Rapinoe, Horan, O'Hara, Ertz, Dahlkemper, Dunn, Sauerbrunn

Based on the fact that the first four turned out to be the exact same ones who took the kicks, in the exact order, I think it’s a very good bet that Horan was going to be the next one to take a kick. Logically that makes sense even without seeing the way they were lined up.

One other small thing, that I'm sure you know but many casual observers may not: Another option for PK #5, at least in theory, was Alyssa Naeher. At some point, if the kicks from the mark go long enough, the goalkeepers must take a kick. Normally they will go 11th, (i.e. last) but sometimes a GK may go earlier. Although some youth referees don't know it, a team can just decide on their kicking order on the fly. No requirement to submit a list or anything else.

Vlatko said in his postgame interview that the group of Lavelle, Morgan, Press and Rapinoe was deliberately held out as substitutes for the second half and for up to two extra time periods, just in case it came to a shoot out. And as planned, it was that group that decided it in 1.2,3,4 fashion. And yes, Horan would have been number 5.

 

[D J B]

the fact that the US has a record number of offsides goals definitely indicates something bad
Whether it’s lack of discipline , overeagerness, immaturity (odd for a veteran team). Could the forwards feel slow relative to defenders and so they are over-pressing to try to gain an edge?
whatever it is, it’s not good.
8 or 9 offsides goals is unheard of

VARs (Video Assistant Referee) has a large part to play. It's new, and is used in major FIFA tournaments (World Cup) and only now in the Olympics. In the not too distant past, offside was determined by a few inches. Now, it's down to 1/2 inch or less. Look at Morgan's offside goal against Australia for reference. It was at most 1/2 inch. That's not discipline, over eagerness or immaturity. It's simply the level of play these women are working pushing the envelope. And yes, they are always trying to gain an edge, as athletes do in every sport. It's now bad, it's just a new thing. And the fact that the USWNT has 9 offsides called by a few inches or less is in fact a testament to how disciplined they actually are. If all those offside calls had been by a foot or more, then it would be cause for concern and an indication of something bad.

 

[D J B]

This may have been posted but Canada's goalie Steph Labbe played her college soccer at UConn.

Steph is a very good goalie. She is also someone who took some time off to get her mental strength (life) together, but it seems she's done so and as I said, she's a very good goalie.

 

[D J B]

US vs. Canada in the semifinals. US record vs. Canada is 51-3-7. The last match between the US and Canada in the Olympics was 2012 at Old Trafford, where the US won 4-3 in double overtime on a header by Alex Morgan in the 123rd minute, the latest goal scored men or women in FIFA history. Many consider it the best women's soccer match ever played.

 

[stamfordhusky]

VARs (Video Assistant Referee) has a large part to play. It's new, and is used in major FIFA tournaments (World Cup) and only now in the Olympics. In the not too distant past, offside was determined by a few inches. Now, it's down to 1/2 inch or less. Look at Morgan's offside goal against Australia for reference. It was at most 1/2 inch. That's not discipline, over eagerness or immaturity. It's simply the level of play these women are working pushing the envelope. And yes, they are always trying to gain an edge, as athletes do in every sport. It's now bad, it's just a new thing. And the fact that the USWNT has 9 offsides called by a few inches or less is in fact a testament to how disciplined they actually are. If all those offside calls had been by a foot or more, then it would be cause for concern and an indication of something bad.

Some of them have been close, but at least half have been by much more than a foot. That is often simply a lack of discipline. For example, go back and look at some of Lloyd's, where she simply hasn't looked where the defenders are. On Morgan's "goal" late in OT, she was offside by a yard. Or look at the times when the defense pushes up, and one or more U.S. attackers don't move with them.

One telling stat is that the U.S. in four games has been called for offside 23 times. Their opponents have been called only 6 times in those same games. The U.S. total of 23 offside violations is far more than any other team.

 

[D J B]

Some of them have been close, but at least half have been by much more than a foot. That is often simply a lack of discipline. For example, go back and look at some of Lloyd's, where she simply hasn't looked where the defenders are. On Morgan's "goal" late in OT, she was offside by a yard. Or look at the times when the defense pushes up, and one or more U.S. attackers don't move with them.

One telling stat is that the U.S. in four games has been called for offside 23 times. Their opponents have been called only 6 times. The U.S. total of 23 offside violations is far more than any other team.

This actually isn't unusual. If you follow the USWNT, you know they have historically been very high in offside calls. This is nothing new. It's very typical for the US to have 4, 5, 6 or 7 offside calls a match. Our forwards have always been some of the fastest in the world and they are always pushing the envelope. What is different is the number of actual goals being called back for offside. This has never happened before. I would call it a positive that they are actually putting the ball in the back of the net on their offside runs. Offsides are extremely common. Goals are not.

And, Morgan's offside wasn't by a "yard". That's where she was when the ball reached her, but when the actual offside occurred, (when Rapinoe chipped the feed from Ertz) it was a matter of less than an inch. Press was offside on her goal by only an inch or two also. Unusual? Yes. Aggressive? Yes. Undisciplined? No.

 

[stamfordhusky]

After looking at the replay, Morgan was probably off by two feet. But what is more disturbing is that she was in an offside position continually for several seconds before the pass. She was not making a run, but simply standing offside waiting for the ball to be delivered.

 

[stamfordhusky]

This actually isn't unusual. If you follow the USWNT, you know they have historically been very high in offside calls. This is nothing new. It's very typical for the US to have 4, 5, 6 or 7 offside calls a match. Our forwards have always been some of the fastest in the world and they are always pushing the envelope. What is different is the number of actual goals being called back for offside. This has never happened before. I would call it a positive that they are actually putting the ball in the back of the net on their offside runs. Offsides are extremely common. Goals are not.

I follow them very closely. And I know that they have rarely had this many offside calls and certainly never have had nearly as many goals disallowed. For example, in the 2019 World Cup's final five games - Netherlands, Britain, France, Spain, and Sweden - the U.S. was called for offside 11 times - about 2 per game. Thus far in this Olympics, they are being called for about 6 offsides per game - almost three times as many. In 2018 games against top teams, the offside totals were also much lower than in this year's Olympics.

I am not worried about the occasional closely timed run where there is a close offside. But I am definitely concerned about the many offsides in this competition where the culprit was wandering around well behind the 2LD and seemingly oblivious to where the defenders were.

 

[Vowelguy]

VARs (Video Assistant Referee) has a large part to play. It's new, and is used in major FIFA tournaments (World Cup) and only now in the Olympics. In the not too distant past, offside was determined by a few inches. Now, it's down to 1/2 inch or less. Look at Morgan's offside goal against Australia for reference. It was at most 1/2 inch. That's not discipline, over eagerness or immaturity. It's simply the level of play these women are working pushing the envelope. And yes, they are always trying to gain an edge, as athletes do in every sport. It's now bad, it's just a new thing. And the fact that the USWNT has 9 offsides called by a few inches or less is in fact a testament to how disciplined they actually are. If all those offside calls had been by a foot or more, then it would be cause for concern and an indication of something bad.

All of the offsides goals I saw were called by the linesman so it’s not like it was only bc of VAR that they were called. (Not that I saw all the cases.)

and the fact that it is a record number suggests something is going wrong

also there’s the age old adage about adapting to how the game is called. This is one of the most veteran teams.

 

[eebmg]

Steph is a very good goalie. She is also someone who took some time off to get her mental strength (life) together, but it seems she's done so and as I said, she's a very good goalie.

And while US Hero Goalie Alyssa Naeher went to PSU, she is a Connecticut Native.

 

[D J B]

All of the offsides goals I saw were called by the linesman so it’s not like it was only bc of VAR that they were called. (Not that I saw all the cases.)

and the fact that it is a record number suggests something is going wrong

also there’s the age old adage about adapting to how the game is called. This is one of the most veteran teams.

I understand what you're saying. But VAR does play a big part of why the USWNT is having so many goals called back, and it has to do with the linesmen/lineswomen/linespersons not raising the flag immediately as they do in non-VAR matches. Since VAR can and will be used to determine if their call is correct, they are waiting until the play is completed to raise the flag when it's a close call. In non-VAR matches, they raise the flag and blow the whistle and the play usually stops before completion. It's just the way the game has changed under video replay.

Is it concerning that there have been so many in the Olympics? I suppose, but the USWNT has always used long ball attack the goal play as a standard part of their game. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't. I personally don't think it's anything to be overly concerned about. As you say, these are veteran players.

My bigger concern is how they often get stuck in the midfield, or how they lose possession far too easily. Sometimes it seems that they don't know what color kits they are wearing. And then there are the mind-numbing mistakes in the back line. Those concern me most.

 

[stamfordhusky]

By the way, a side judge in calling an offside doesn't rely solely on a visual reference. They are watching the players along the offside line and are listening for the sound of the ball being struck by the player sending the ball forward. (Soccer balls are designed to have a very distinct and loud sound being kicked.) Usually, the flag goes up instantly, but other times the side judge has to replay it in their head to get it right.

This might be misleading to the casual fan. In most cases the flag should not go up instantly. Before popping the flag the AR is expected to determine if the player in the offside position gets involved in the play. Only then should the flag go up. Waiting for involvement may take a few seconds, or even longer. For example, England's FA says:

Offside
To ensure correct judgement of offside offences, an Assistant Referee should not raise the flag before
considering the following criteria, so called “wait and see” technique:

• Movement of the ball (direction, speed, distance, any deflection, etc.)
• Involvement of the player in active play by:

interfering with play or
interfering with an opponent or
gaining an advantage.
It is better to be slightly late and correct, than to be too quick and wrong.

Secondly, in any game where VAR is present, per FAFSA the AR's are expected to keep the flag down in any close situation that may quickly lead to a scoring opportunity. If an undeserved goal is scored, it can always be overruled by VAR.

 

[darkstar1]

The Dutch deserved to move on.... this is the one that feels like both the teams are deserving. Not sure why they're crying tho.... they're a rising team (younger than us), and with each passing year.... they close the gap against us by a little bit more. Not bad for a team that before 2017 nobody even knew existed.

Close the gap? USA was the underdog in this one. Deservedly. Best team does not always win…thank goodness.

 

[SimpleDawg]

Close the gap? USA was the underdog in this one. Deservedly. Best team does not always win…thank goodness.

I don't know where it's written that we were the underdog. This was one where it could've went either way. I was confident Sweden would win easily, but the other 3 games could've gone either way. Not sure if any of them had an underdog except Sweden-Japan tho.

 

[Conndog]

Canada will get revenge for getting shafted in 2012 against US

 

[calpedaler]

Canada will get revenge for getting shafted in 2012 against US

Canada should have been a player down for most of that game after Tancredi stomped on Lloyd's head.

 

[darkstar1]

I don't know where it's written that we were the underdog. This was one where it could've went either way. I was confident Sweden would win easily, but the other 3 games could've gone either way. Not sure if any of them had

I was wrong. I had read two articles picking Netherlands to win. But I went back to look at the American betting lines and USA was a slight favorite to win in regular time. Of course, that bet on either team would have lost.

 

[D J B]

Canada will get revenge for getting shafted in 2012 against US

They've been saying that since then, and even scheduled a revenge game just for the occasion. Morgan scored two spectacular goals back-to-back and Syd Leroux (Canadian born, playing for the US) added another. 3-0, US. I believe the series record is 51-5-7 for the US. Perhaps if all 6 US goals are ruled offside...

 

[Plebe]

They've been saying that since then, and even scheduled a revenge game just for the occasion. Morgan scored two spectacular goals back-to-back and Syd Leroux (Canadian born, playing for the US) added another. 3-0, US. I believe the series record is 51-5-7 for the US. Perhaps if all 6 US goals are ruled offside...

Well I certainly don't want to hear any more Canadian whining about officiating after they just benefited from a major screwjob in the beach volleyball round of 16.

At 11-12 in set 3, a ball by the US's Claes and Sponcil was called out. The US challenged and the call was reversed, ruled ball in. Then somehow the Canadians challenged the result of the challenge, and it was re-adjudicated back to the original out call. Commentator Kevin Wong said he'd never seen this happen.

 

[eebmg]

Well I certainly don't want to hear any more Canadian whining about officiating after they just benefited from a major screwjob in the beach volleyball round of 16.

At 11-12 in set 3, a ball by the US's Claes and Sponcil was called out. The US challenged and the call was reversed, ruled ball in. Then somehow the Canadians challenged the result of the challenge, and it was re-adjudicated back to the original out call. Commentator Kevin Wong said he'd never seen this happen.

Well, by coincidence, just happened to see it in real time. I will say that I thought the ball was just out and was surprised the first challenge reversed it assuming the standard of review is "ruling stands unless their is clear evidence of error" . Of course, once the challenge is made, it is unconscionable to reverse the results of a challenge.

 

[Plebe]

Well, by coincidence, just happened to see it in real time. I will say that I thought the ball was just out and was surprised the first challenge reversed it assuming the standard of review is "ruling stands unless their is clear evidence of error" . Of course, once the challenge is made, it is unconscionable to reverse the results of a challenge.

Extremely extremely close call, about as close as they come, but I actually agree I thought the ball just missed. (Although plenty of people out there are saying they see it in.)

The problem is that, as reported by Chris Marlowe, the geniuses doing the video review hit the wrong button and indicated the challenge was successful. Only to then "correct" themselves. Needless to say, this was extremely upsetting to the players, and Sponcil promptly committed her only overpass of the entire match to go down 11-14.

 

[eebmg]

Extremely extremely close call, about as close as they come, but I actually agree I thought the ball just missed. (Although plenty of people out there are saying they see it in.)

The problem is that, as reported by Chris Marlowe, the geniuses doing the video review hit the wrong button and indicated the challenge was successful. Only to then "correct" themselves. Needless to say, this was extremely upsetting to the players, and Sponcil promptly committed her only overpass of the entire match to go down 11-14.

Wow. Very unfortunate

 

[SimpleDawg]

dogcrap penalty call. There was more contact in the amateur leagues on that penalty.

Might as well bow out after that tho.