Olympics Basketball

[storrsroars]

JHC, go start a separate Tatum thread already.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I don't think it's crazy to put SGA over Tatum, but I don't think it's as obvious as people are making it out to be. They're the same age, and Tatum has had orders of magnitude more success in his career than SGA's managed, both in the regular-season and especially in the playoffs.

I do wonder if he'll finally have the wrist surgery he's been putting off for a couple of years. Reportedly there's not a 100% chance of success so he's decided to play through it, but this shooting slump is so profound and prolonged that something's got to change.

They’re probably in the same tier but Shai is definitely at the top of that tier. Shai is more efficient and a better defender (Tatum is a good defender himself).

 

[Kolumbo]

Just my opinion but I'm surprised so many people are that interested in Olympic Basketball. I am not a huge follower of the NBA but the Olympics, no interest whatsoever. Just my opinion and I'm probably in the minority. I think they should go back to amateurs only if they want to keep basketball. The Olympics are for young guys, not 39 year old locks for the hall of fame.

What really irritates me is referring to these NBA players as great Olympians. Olympian athletes from around the world train for years and years and the Olympics is their Holy Grail. The ultimate goal. Any NBA player can be plugged into the USA line-up and win a medal. They do this for a living, competing in the NBA for an NBA championship. The USA should be an automatic gold, no question. I was just reading a list which had Jordan as one of the greatest Olympians of all time while it exccluded Vasily Alekseyev! I mean, come on man!

 

[uconnfan68]

Just my opinion but I'm surprised so many people are that interested in Olympic Basketball. I am not a huge follower of the NBA but the Olympics, no interest whatsoever. Just my opinion and I'm probably in the minority. I think they should go back to amateurs only if they want to keep basketball. The Olympics are for young guys, not 39 year old locks for the hall of fame.

What really irritates me is referring to these NBA players as great Olympians. Olympian athletes from around the world train for years and years and the Olympics is their Holy Grail. The ultimate goal. Any NBA player can be plugged into the USA line-up and win a medal. They do this for a living, competing in the NBA for an NBA championship. The USA should be an automatic gold, no question. I was just reading a list which had Jordan as one of the greatest Olympians of all time while it exccluded Vasily Alekseyev! I mean, come on man!

Juiced. Like every athlete from a communist state.

 

[superjohn]

Juiced. Like every athlete from a communist state.

Every American Olympic weightlifter is juiced.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Every American Olympic weightlifter is juiced.

We should send Mike O'Hearn. The last of the great natty lifters.

 

[hoophuskee]

Look I’d love for the team to play up to their potential - I grew up on the 2008 team that I feel would smoke today’s teams. Perhaps it’s a composition problem - I wonder if you took the best Americans from the NBA championship team if they’d win because they’re more comfortable playing together and well balanced.

Curious where you think people’s contempt for US basketball players stems from?

The contempt from fans he might be talking about (not mine) is too much one-on-one play and/or too much 3pt shooting/dunk or bust.


On the 2nd subject - imo your take on underwhelming ofc is subjective for each person - but for my take - you don't win gold medals and believe it's underwhelming. For example if you have followed the NBA as much as you seem you have then the way you made it sound like Curry and KD are all-time greats is a massively exaggerated point. They are not near their peaks any longer. Neither is LeBron. With their ages they are much more likely to be up-and-down.

And you have followed sports as much as you appear you have then you must realize that talented teams that are older in some respects in which they haven't practiced much together in a one game situation, haven't you seen a ton in your lifetime that the best team doesn't always win??? SO, why do you think games like this are planned for one game and not a 7 game series?

Add to this at least in the final game they are playing in France vs the French. As much as you have followed sports, you never thought much of homecourt advantage especially when the visitor might be playing to some degree with different ref rules than accustomed (ie more physicality which negates athleticism to a degree)?

And with the women, you realize that the French pro players all skipped the WNBA season in order to be better prepared for the Olympics? And you think that means very little while the French palyers (both men and women) are probably treating this like defending their country vs an aggressor? You don't think fighting at home vs an opposing country won't fuel their fight further especially being spurred on by the home crowd they grew up with? And part of your point was that the older players like Curry and KD are all-time grreats even though they are past their prime?

 

[bballgrda]

JHC, go start a separate Tatum thread already.

The Tatum discourse these past few months has been nauseating.

 

[Matrim55]

They’re probably in the same tier but Shai is definitely at the top of that tier. Shai is more efficient and a better defender (Tatum is a good defender himself).

Shai might be a better 1v1 defender at his position, but Tatum's ability to credibly guard 1-thru-5 is the key to Boston's title-winning defense, just like his ability to initiate the offense (he's closer to being the team's PG than anyone else) is the key to our all-time great offense.

The slump he's in has turned him into a meme, and now folks are sleeping on just how much of a winning player the guy is.

He's like a 5-tool centerfielder who'll never win a gold glove or a batting title, but is top 5 in the league in dWAR & OPS+.

 

[uconnfan68]

Every American Olympic weightlifter is juiced.

Why do you hate Americans?

 

[superjohn]

Why do you hate Americans?

Why are you so weird?

 

[uconnfan68]

Why are you so weird?

I’m American, and root for them.

 

[superjohn]

I’m American, and root for them.

That doesn't answer my question.

 

[husky429]

Every American Olympic weightlifter is juiced.

It's simply not possible to compete at a high level in weightlifting without juicing.

One of my buddies was in the UFC for 6 or so years. Swore up and down for years he was clean all over his huge social media. I've seen the guy shoot tren multiple times. It's so stupid

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Shai might be a better 1v1 defender at his position, but Tatum's ability to credibly guard 1-thru-5 is the key to Boston's title-winning defense, just like his ability to initiate the offense (he's closer to being the team's PG than anyone else) is the key to our all-time great offense.

The slump he's in has turned him into a meme, and now folks are sleeping on just how much of a winning player the guy is.

He's like a 5-tool centerfielder who'll never win a gold glove or a batting title, but is top 5 in the league in dWAR & OPS+.

Is Tatum actually asked to guard players? He’s a good defender but it doesn’t seem like he’s asked to guard the other team’s best 1-5. At most he’s asked to do something like stop Lively from being a lob threat.

Ive seen Brown really guard superstar 1-4 from Jalen Brunson to Giannas. I can’t remember Tatum taking on those kind of assignments.

It’s not like Tatum is out there elevating an okay team like Shai did this past season. He played on the most talented team in the NBA. Based on his play, they were so talented he really couldn’t mess up them winning if he tried (numbers show this too).

I have a theory of what’s causing his shooting slump, but it’s me beating a dead horse.

 

[HuskyHawk]

My complaint with Kerr is not really about Tatum. He's merely a symptom of the problem. In that Gold game, I watched Durant with the ball up top, playing 1 on 2 1 on 3, turning it over multiple times and taking some really crappy shots. He made one of them. Then I saw guys setting up Lebron for ISO, one dunk, two turnovers. Take that crap back to 2002. He doesn't let GS play that way. Yes, Curry bailed them out with more individual one on one brilliance, but couldn't we have actually run offense to get him open looks?

Meanwhile, the Euros look like UConn by comparison, playing clean, unselfish basketball. It allowed them to damned near win a couple of games despite a talent deficit. None of these games should have been in doubt. Please get Spoelestra in to coach the team, with Daigenault and Mazzulla on the bench.

 

[superjohn]

It's simply not possible to compete at a high level in weightlifting without juicing.

One of my buddies was in the UFC for 6 or so years. Swore up and down for years he was clean all over his huge social media. I've seen the guy shoot tren multiple times. It's so stupid

Yep. Steroids are everywhere in sports and everyone in strength sports is on them.

 

[uconnfan68]

That doesn't answer my question.

You didn't answer mine either.

 

[Matrim55]

Is Tatum actually asked to guard players? He’s a good defender but it doesn’t seem like he’s asked to guard the other team’s best 1-5. At most he’s asked to do something like stop Lively from being a lob threat.

Ive seen Brown really guard superstar 1-4 from Jalen Brunson to Giannas. I can’t remember Tatum taking on those kind of assignments.

It’s not like Tatum is out there elevating an okay team like Shai did this past season. He played on the most talented team in the NBA. Based on his play, they were so talented he really couldn’t mess up them winning if he tried (numbers show this too).

I have a theory of what’s causing his shooting slump, but it’s me beating a dead horse.

Tatum was the primary defender on KD in a playoff series and destroyed him head-to-head. He was the secondary defender on Giannis in a playoff series (Jaylen was tertiary) and still scored 50 in a road elimination game 6.

Jaylen definitely made it a point to take the tougher assignment this year, but in large part that's because Tatum was expending more energy than ever running the offense. The other part of it is that the 1-5 switching that Tatum does -- which includes guarding 5s in the post and not just taking away lob threats (watch the Indy series) -- can't be replicated by Brown.

And you're wrong about Tatum not elevating an ok team. The '19-20 Celtics, when Tatum was just 21, played at a 55-win pace despite injuries to Kemba & Hayward and Brown not knowing how to pass the ball yet.

Take Tatum away and that team was no more talented than this year's OKC without Shai. And yet they played at roughly the same win pace and made it equally as far in the playoffs, with Tatum four years younger than Shai is now.

Tatum was also the second-best player on the '21 Olympics team that won gold.

I don't even like the guy that much, but the downplaying of his accomplishments is getting ridiculous. Especially when comparing him to guy who's the exact same age and has only really done anything of note in the regular season.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Tatum was the primary defender on KD in a playoff series and destroyed him head-to-head. He was the secondary defender on Giannis in a playoff series (Jaylen was tertiary) and still scored 50 in a road elimination game 6.

Jaylen definitely made it a point to take the tougher assignment this year, but in large part that's because Tatum was expending more energy than ever running the offense. The other part of it is that the 1-5 switching that Tatum does -- which includes guarding 5s in the post and not just taking away lob threats (watch the Indy series) -- can't be replicated by Brown.

And you're wrong about Tatum not elevating an ok team. The '19-20 Celtics, when Tatum was just 21, played at a 55-win pace despite injuries to Kemba & Hayward and Brown not knowing how to pass the ball yet.

Take Tatum away and that team was no more talented than this year's OKC without Shai. And yet they played at roughly the same win pace and made it equally as far in the playoffs, with Tatum four years younger than Shai is now.

Tatum was also the second-best player on the '21 Olympics team that won gold.

I don't even like the guy that much, but the downplaying of his accomplishments is getting ridiculous. Especially when comparing him to guy who's the exact same age and has only really done anything of note in the regular season.

Celtics have had a good to great team pretty much the entirety of Tatum’s tenure. He certainly contributes to that, but Shai hasn’t had a very good team up until last year. I’m not Boston hater, I just think Shai is a slight cut above Tatum.

As you mentioned in your response to my initial post replying to you, Tatum is incredibly switchable on D and impactful guarding 1-4, but Shai’s ball hawking and perimeter D is top tier. He is more efficient and definitely more consistent, maybe the most consistent guy in the league outside of Jokic.

I have the Big 4, then Shai up next, then like Tatum, Steph, KD, AD, Bron, Brunson in that next level. (Could be forgetting some).

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

Tatum was the primary defender on KD in a playoff series and destroyed him head-to-head. He was the secondary defender on Giannis in a playoff series (Jaylen was tertiary) and still scored 50 in a road elimination game 6.

Jaylen definitely made it a point to take the tougher assignment this year, but in large part that's because Tatum was expending more energy than ever running the offense. The other part of it is that the 1-5 switching that Tatum does -- which includes guarding 5s in the post and not just taking away lob threats (watch the Indy series) -- can't be replicated by Brown.

And you're wrong about Tatum not elevating an ok team. The '19-20 Celtics, when Tatum was just 21, played at a 55-win pace despite injuries to Kemba & Hayward and Brown not knowing how to pass the ball yet.

Take Tatum away and that team was no more talented than this year's OKC without Shai. And yet they played at roughly the same win pace and made it equally as far in the playoffs, with Tatum four years younger than Shai is now.

Tatum was also the second-best player on the '21 Olympics team that won gold.

I don't even like the guy that much, but the downplaying of his accomplishments is getting ridiculous. Especially when comparing him to guy who's the exact same age and has only really done anything of note in the regular season.

Tatum only played 10 more games than Kemba. And wasn’t that the bubble year? We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Kemba, not washed up Hayward, Brown, and Smart is a helluva core to play with in comparison to Jaylen Williams, rookie Chet Holmgren, and Lu Dort.

Most of these points your making is from years ago too. He was an up and coming player then.

But it seems like he regressed instead of making the next leap to being that unquestionable top 5 player everyone thought he should be despite having the perfect situation every other superstar in the NBA would wish for.

 

[Travelman6]

Serbs over here having a meltdown, saying the refs gave US the game and are the rightful gold medalist or deserved a shot for gold vs Germany. It's been a few days of this rhetoric now, even with cute memes with the refs under the banner "gold medal winners" and "it took 12 US stars to beat Jokic" and such.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Tatum was the primary defender on KD in a playoff series and destroyed him head-to-head. He was the secondary defender on Giannis in a playoff series (Jaylen was tertiary) and still scored 50 in a road elimination game 6.

Jaylen definitely made it a point to take the tougher assignment this year, but in large part that's because Tatum was expending more energy than ever running the offense. The other part of it is that the 1-5 switching that Tatum does -- which includes guarding 5s in the post and not just taking away lob threats (watch the Indy series) -- can't be replicated by Brown.

And you're wrong about Tatum not elevating an ok team. The '19-20 Celtics, when Tatum was just 21, played at a 55-win pace despite injuries to Kemba & Hayward and Brown not knowing how to pass the ball yet.

Take Tatum away and that team was no more talented than this year's OKC without Shai. And yet they played at roughly the same win pace and made it equally as far in the playoffs, with Tatum four years younger than Shai is now.

Tatum was also the second-best player on the '21 Olympics team that won gold.

I don't even like the guy that much, but the downplaying of his accomplishments is getting ridiculous. Especially when comparing him to guy who's the exact same age and has only really done anything of note in the regular season.

Honestly the reason he was the 2nd leading scorer back in 21 was because that was the immature ISO ball Tatum. Had he played that way this year, he probably has a bigger role. But that garbage has mostly been coached out of him. White was superb for the Olympic team early on and he couldn't get in the Gold game either, because it was just not about playing team basketball anymore. Bam and White were fantastic together in one of the games, but they put the ball in KDs, LeBron's or Stephs hands as it went on. The team wasn't better for it. Booker scored because he can be that secondary scorer away from the ball. Brown would have fit better on this team than JT. But all those old guys are done now.

 

[Matrim55]

Tatum only played 10 more games than Kemba. And wasn’t that the bubble year? We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Kemba, not washed up Hayward, Brown, and Smart is a helluva core to play with in comparison to Jaylen Williams, rookie Chet Holmgren, and Lu Dort.

Most of these points your making is from years ago too. He was an up and coming player then.

But it seems like he regressed instead of making the next leap to being that unquestionable top 5 player everyone thought he should be despite having the perfect situation every other superstar in the NBA would wish for.

Kemba hurt his knee that January and was never the same again. By the time the playoffs came around he was a liability in a way that nobody in the Thunder rotation was. A 21-year-old Tatum nearly led that team to the East finals anyway (and unlike 26–year-old SGA, he didn’t commit a series-losing boneheaded foul).

As for him regressing:



He’s a power forward who’s in the top 6 in the league in points per possession running the pick & roll.

That’s not regression. He gave up boxscore stats to becomes a better, more effective overall player. And the Celtics won a title because of it — even when his jumper broke.

 

[superjohn]

Kemba hurt his knee that January and was never the same again. By the time the playoffs came around he was a liability in a way that nobody in the Thunder rotation was. A 21-year-old Tatum nearly led that team to the East finals anyway (and unlike 26–year-old SGA, he didn’t commit a series-losing boneheaded foul).

As for him regressing:



He’s a power forward who’s in the top 6 in the league in points per possession running the pick & roll.

That’s not regression. He gave up boxscore stats to becomes a better, more effective overall player. And the Celtics won a title because of it — even when his jumper broke.

They won a title because they had the best roster in the sport.