O.T. Wells Report out: "More probable than not Patriots altered footballs", Brady likely aware | Page 10 | The Boneyard

O.T. Wells Report out: "More probable than not Patriots altered footballs", Brady likely aware

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easttexastrash said:
I'm not rooting against the Pats. I think what they've done is incredible and highly impressive and some of the best football I've ever seen. I just think Brady played a role in having the balls under inflated. That doesn't mean I am rooting against them any more than any other team not from Dallas or Denver. I was yelling for the Pats to win the Super Bowl because I cannot stand Pete Carroll and Richarf Sherman. The look on Sherman's face after that late-game TO was priceless.
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But the entire premise of Wells report is based on the investigator's conclusion that Anderson's recollection about which gauge he used was incorrect, despite the fact that his recollection was quite clear and specific, "the gauge with the long crooked needle".

If Anderson's memory is correct the Ideal Gas Law fully and completely explains the halftime measurements. That renders moot everything else. In other words you can't prosecute someone for robbing a bank if the bank wasn't robbed.
 
Uhuru said:
Hey, toad. You know there's no evidence from Spygate because Goodell destroyed all the Cheaters' tapes.

Anyway, I'm sure there was nothing incriminating on them. Oh wait, I just remembered - $500,000 fine for Bellycheat, $250,000 fine for the Cheaters, and loss of a 1st round pick. Apologies from Graft and Bellycheat. Yeah, probably nothing there.
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First of all, it's Mr. toadfoot to you.

Secondly, I said evidence that taints their SuperBowl wins. Spygate had absolutely nothing to with any of their victories. You, like most football fans have no clue what Spygate was about.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...pygate-punishing-success-and-promoting-parity

I don't really expect you to read this because it will destroy the fantasy you've created surrounding the Patriots sustained success in an era where the NFL has established rules intended to promote parity. The bottom line is that Spygate was a very minor technical violation of a Walt Anderson memo that actually misstated NFL rules. My personal opinion is that Kraft didn't fight the punishment in some misguided notion that it would harm the league's image to so. I also suspect that in hindsight he regrets that decision, which is why he may be prepared to take the current case to court if necessary.
 
toadfoot said:
But the entire premise of Wells report is based on the investigator's conclusion that Anderson's recollection about which gauge he used was incorrect, despite the fact that his recollection was quite clear and specific, "the gauge with the long crooked needle".

If Anderson's memory is correct the Ideal Gas Law fully and completely explains the halftime measurements. That renders moot everything else. In other words you can't prosecute someone for robbing a bank if the bank wasn't robbed.
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And you keep trying...I respect your devotion to Brady and the Pats.
 
easttexastrash said:
How do we know that the other guys have not already deleted their texts? Did that ever cross your mind?
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Did it ever cross your mind that then Brady could just delete his?
 
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UcMiami said:
Throw in $5 gauges and multiple operators of the gauges and no one will know what the actual starting pressures were based on the ending pressures.
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There's the meat of it. Nobody knows what the actual pressures were anyway. Without a calibrated gauge, all the measurements are pretty much useless for fining of disciplining anyone.
 
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UcMiami said:
On the equipment guys - I suspect it falls under the same guise as 'self reporting' and imposing of discipline by colleges to 'preempt' the NCAA and show a 'cooperative' stance - and their reinstatement is actually now at the leagues pleasure and their duties are to be determined by the league - so it is part of the league 'punishment'. On top of that, it has come out from their texts they were stealing equipment behind their bosses backs.

As for the footballs - I really think the science proves that more probably than not no tampering occurred and if the NFL were to conduct field tests over the course of a whole season, they would find that the PSI measurements in many games played in cold/rainy/snowy weather varied even more than those in the AFC title game - its just that no one ever bothered to do so before. According to the leagues own findings there should have been a loss of around 1.2-1.5 PSI based just on temperature for balls taken from inside at 71 degrees to outside at 48 degrees - throw in a wide range of sideline storage and game play conditions as well as precipitation and the range of pressures will get much wider. Throw in $5 gauges and multiple operators of the gauges and no one will know what the actual starting pressures were based on the ending pressures.
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Actually - I just realized something here - the NFLs own experts say balls should deflate by 1.2-1.5 PSI during the first half under normal conditions based on science. So ... it seems odd that the Colts balls did not deflate that much if you assume they were measured with the same 'crooked' gauge before and at half time. What were the colts doing with their balls to keep them inflated?! Storing them next to the sideline heaters?! (Actually because the Colts balls were not measured until the last few minutes of halftime they probably warmed significantly in the referees room before they got measured. But it would be interesting to know how long it would take for the temperature in that room to warm the balls.)
 
UcMiami said:
And:
Why do I think this has been made to be a bigger deal than it is? I go back to the Vikings-Panthers game from November, with teams illegally heating footballs on the sideline and simply getting a warning from the NFL, and wonder how we got to this point with the Patriots and underinflated footballs. I go back to the Chargers using an illegal sticky substance on towels in 2012 and getting fined $25,000, and likewise wonder how we got to this point with the Patriots and underinflated footballs. Put the three situations together and only one requires a full-fledged investigation that will cost owners millions of dollars? In the interest of fairness, what am I missing? Add in comments from Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgersabout his preference for overinflated footballs, and this New York Times story on Eli Manning and his football preparation, and it just seems we've gone off the rails here.
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Sort of feels like NFL is to the Patriots as the NCAA is to UConn.
 
And did anyone ask the balls what really happened? That may be the weakest part of all in the NFL investigation.

Wilson the ball.jpg
 
CL82 said:
Just curious, precisely what in his post do you disagree with?
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Some people simply don't want to know the truth based upon empirical facts. It ruins the fantasy they've created to explain why 'their' team has not been as succes
UcMiami said:
Actually - I just realized something here - the NFLs own experts say balls should deflate by 1.2-1.5 PSI during the first half under normal conditions based on science. So ... it seems odd that the Colts balls did not deflate that much if you assume they were measured with the same 'crooked' gauge before and at half time. What were the colts doing with their balls to keep them inflated?! Storing them next to the sideline heaters?! (Actually because the Colts balls were not measured until the last few minutes of halftime they probably warmed significantly in the referees room before they got measured. But it would be interesting to know how long it would take for the temperature in that room to warm the balls.)
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That's actually discussed in the Wells report or the Patriots rebuttal... don't recall which. Tests confirmed that psi would increase about .7 psi in the 13-15 minutes they were in the locker room at halftime. If you figure ~.5 after 10 minutes then starting from ~13.0, which what Anderson recalled, the halftime measurements of ~12.5 minus the .5 increase equals ~1.0 psi drop, which roughly equals the psi drop in Patriots footballs. In other words, case closed. This is all so simple and straightforward if the Wells investigators had simply accepted Anderson's recollection. This only gets complicated when they believe Anderson's memory failed him.
 
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meyers7 said:
Interesting article
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Yep. If I were prone to conspiracy theories I'd want to know who benefited from turning a relatively minor infraction into the biggest scandal in NFL history. I personally blame Goodell's incompetence and ESPN's lack of journalistic ethics, but the sports media in general was simply derelict in their reporting.
 
toadfoot said:
Some people simply don't want to know the truth based upon empirical facts. It ruins the fantasy they've created to explain why 'their' team has not been as succes


That's actually discussed in the Wells report or the Patriots rebuttal... don't recall which. Tests confirmed that psi would increase about .7 psi in the 13-15 minutes they were in the locker room at halftime. If you figure ~.5 after 10 minutes then starting from ~13.0, which what Anderson recalled, the halftime measurements of ~12.5 minus the .5 increase equals ~1.0 psi drop, which roughly equals the psi drop in Patriots footballs. In other words, case closed. This is all so simple and straightforward if the Wells investigators had simply accepted Anderson's recollection. This only gets complicated when they believe Anderson's memory failed him.
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So why did the Pats suspend the equiptment guys?
 
NewCorn said:
So why did the Pats suspend the equiptment guys?
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Nice try, but nothing to see here.

http://www.boston.com/sports/footba...egate-roles/RUx3ilUEpt4SnIA3N8rLrN/story.html

Some of you people just can't see the forest for the trees. Whether Jastremski referred to McNally as the "deflator" in May of 2014 in a couple of texts, why Jastremski and McNally were suspended, why McNally went into the bathroom, etc., completely miss the core of this case. I feel like a broken record, but the entire hypothesis of the Wells report rests on a single piece of evidence, which gauge Anderson used prior to kickoff. If his recollection was accurate and he was quite specific, then even the Wells report can't show any deflation beyond what the Ideal Gas Law predicts. If even the biased Wells report concedes that the deflation was normal for the weather conditions unless Anderson was incorrect, why was the "more probable than not" conclusion reached?

If the NFL can't show that simple fact, and they can't, then everything else is noise. As I said in an earlier post, you can't charge someone with robbing a bank if the bank wasn't robbed.
 
NewCorn said:
So why did the Pats suspend the equiptment guys?
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I have a question for you. Why did the Well's investigators believe everything Anderson "recollected" was correct, except his recollection of which gauge he used before kickoff? It's because they had no case if he used the "gauge with the long crooked needle".
 
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toadfoot said:
I have a question for you. Why did the Well's investigators believe everything Anderson "recollected" was correct, except his recollection of which gauge he used before kickoff? It's because they had no case if he used the "gauge with the long crooked needle".
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My question was not an argument; it was sincere. If the Patriots believe they did nothing wrong, if they believed the investigators had no case, why suspend the equipment managers? I don't understand this.
 
NewCorn said:
My question was not an argument; it was sincere. If the Patriots believe they did nothing wrong, if they believed the investigators had no case, why suspend the equipment managers? I don't understand this.
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Understood. My question was sincere as well.

The league requested they suspend them. Could Kraft have given the NFL the finger? I suppose so. Why didn't he? No idea.

Why did the investigators believe virtually every recollection of Anderson's except one? Seems pretty obvious to me. The Wells investigation started with the premise that the Patriots and Brady tampered with the footballs and then made the "evidence" fit the predetermined conclusion.

Just one other comment about the Wells investigation. There have been comments in this thread about the burden of proof and whether it's more akin to a civil proceeding, which requires a "preponderance of evidence" finding or to a criminal one where "reasonable doubt" is the standard. I would argue that the Wells investigation was neither. It was more like a grand jury proceeding, where typically only the prosecution participates, where only evidence favorable to the prosecution gets presented and where the prosecution essentially tries to put the best face on IT'S case.
 
NewCorn said:
My question was not an argument; it was sincere. If the Patriots believe they did nothing wrong, if they believed the investigators had no case, why suspend the equipment managers? I don't understand this.
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What don't you get about that was at the behest of the NFL. It was not an action New England did on its own. It was cooperation.
 
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