Northwestern players win right to unionize

[Carl Spackler]

You know what occurred to me today- as I'm printing out yet another batch of checks for the government this year - if this actually happens and goes through. Scholarship money should be considered income if the players are considered employees.

I wonder how many athletes would be happy to realize what they would owe Uncle Obama.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

You know what occurred to me today- as I'm printing out yet another batch of checks for the government this year - if this actually happens and goes through. Scholarship money should be considered income if the players are considered employees.

I wonder how many athletes would be happy to realize what they would owe Uncle Obama.

tuition paid is tax deductible.

 

[Carl Spackler]

tuition paid is tax deductible.

Exactly.

It's not tuition anymore. They are employees if they unionize. That means they are collecting income, not paying tuition.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

Exactly.

It's not tuition anymore. They are employees if they unionize. That means they are collecting income, not paying tuition.

Yeah but they would just pay it back to the U and it is an above the line deduction #34, so it wouldn't even show up in their Adjusted Gross Income.

Can you tell I've been doing my taxes all day?

 

[methodology]

I don't think the Northwestern football players looked at the complete picture. If they are allowed to unionize that doesn't stop at football. That will be every single sports program including the sports programs that don't make money. I think football and bball are the only money making sports. You cant pay football/bball players X amount and not pay a women's crew member the same. Title IX protects all the other athletes and sports.

The money made from football and bball fund the other sports. This will destroy all college athletics.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Count me in among those who would be DONE with college athletics if they are allowed to unionize. Mostly because college athletics will cease to exist.

 

[Johnny Mac]

........college athletics will cease to exist.

Or at least cease to exist as we currently know it. I'm OK with that. Why is it incumbent upon the University system to act as the minor league feeder system for the pros?

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Or at least cease to exist as we currently know it. I'm OK with that. Why is it incumbent upon the University system to act as the minor league feeder system for the pros?

No. Hundreds of universities who aren't in major money generating conferences will simply no longer support athletic programs. Thousands upon thousands of kids who normally wouldn't be able to attend college simply won't. You act as though the University and the kids get nothing out of this.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Its hard for me to write about this without getting really lengthy and wordy. Keeping it short and simple.....everything that's happening right now, and has happened to corrupt intercollegiate athletics is due to deregulation of television broadcasting revenue around college football 30 years ago - mandated by a U.S. Supreme Court anti-trust decision against the NCAA. Everything that's happened with every conference change, the creation and demise of the BCS, all of it was entirely predictable, right up to this unionization thing - and WAS predicted 30 years ago when it was deregulated. It can all be summed up very easy. When the Supreme Court decided as they did, the goose that laid the golden egg would eventually be killed if their decision was not reversed in time.

It's been 30 years. A lot of people have gotten really rich on the golden eggs, and the goose is very close to being axed.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Its hard for me to write about this without getting really lengthy and wordy.

 

[Carl Spackler]

CO to the rescue.

LOL. I get more compliments on my length than I get complaints, so I guess that's a good thing.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

Jim Delany said that the Big Ten would deemphasize athletics if O'Bannon won his court case ant it had lasting implications (I doubt that. The Big Ten was formed because of athletics. Where does it go without them?).

Is there any possibility that the Big Ten dismisses Northwestern for not conforming to the mission and morals of the league? On top of that Is there a "Public Ivy" located in a region of the country into which the Big Ten would expand?

Hmm interesting.

I saw a quick sound-bite that hi-lighted the Northwestern QB/Student that seems to be the face of the whole thing. I was impressed with the kid. He is not some wild-eyed, frothing at the mouth 60's SDS agitator. He also seems to be smart enough to avoid the "payment" issue; at least as it relates to direct pay (stipends).

My sense is that athletes want a seat at the table when issues like safety, coaching staff's ability to dictate Majors/Courses, scholarship non-renewal and post-career medical coverage for college related injuries, etc. are discussed. It's hard to believe, but it seems that some athletes no longer trust the NCAA or, in many cases, their own institutions with their well-being. I can't imagine why.

I understand that a scholarship and the perks that support college athletes are valuable to those equipped to understand the value. A only value a scholarship given to a kid with 3rd grade reading skills is value that accrues to the University, while he's eligible.

The whole idea would be more palatable if the words "Union" and "Employee" were avoided; if the stipend issue works itself out and "OBannon" is allowed to run its course. People understand the "other" issues and probably why athletes have lost faith in the NCAA, University Management and, even, coaches. Emmert has become nothing more than a Commissioner of Professional (and a few amateur) Sports. It throws B.S. platitudes at the "student/athletes" while trying to ensure its viability with the owners (big-time member institutions). Emmert will do what he has to do to keep his seven-figure pay check. Most of the time, the well-being of athletes argument is beneath "take-home" on his priorities.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The NCAA is essentially neutered when it comes to any control over any big money around college football, unless something goes through all the way to the supreme court again involving the NCAA. I'm 100% behind the concept of income redistribution - when it comes to intercollegiate athletics. In actual business and real world economics - nope. But the concept works in the academic world (which is probably why - oh never mind - let's not go there)..........

It's a concept that should be part of intercollegiate athletics - because keeping the mission of education and the integration of athletics and academics true - means that you can't have the free market forces competing like they do now. You got posts like the one above wondering about "minor leagues for the pro's". That's what happens, when the athletics revenue streams start dictating the missions and activities of entire academic institutions. When there is revenue sharing and control of revenue sharing, that is less likely to happen.

I wrote it early on somewhere, the only good thing that I can see coming from this - and I hope the young man from Northwestern is educated and smart enough in his history to know it, is that the way it all gets fixed is that it makes it's way back to the Supreme Court, the old decisions are opened up for review, and the course of action changed back to a model fo revenue sharing control that exists for the NCAA in every other sport - like say - men's basketball and the NCAA tournament.

At that point, the concepts of stipends, which make sense, can be addressed - there is more than enough money to go around, and schools can actually emphasize the student part of student athlete to athletes, and not have intelligent athletes feel like slaves.

Hopefully this unionization issue is the thing that makes it's way back up the court system and closes up the Pandora's box - without actually being put into effect and destroying intercollegiate athletics before it gets a chance to be fixed.

 

[Johnny Mac]

No. Hundreds of universities who aren't in major money generating conferences will simply no longer support athletic programs. Thousands upon thousands of kids who normally wouldn't be able to attend college simply won't. You act as though the University and the kids get nothing out of this.

I don't think that's true. Universities will still feel compelled to provide a college experience and that college experience could still include both intercollegiate and club sports. Thousands upon thousands of kids could still play sports in college, just not as a feeder system for the pros...and without a $350 million stadium and without a $5 million/year coach. Hundreds of colleges and universities around the nation do that today.

I don’t know how this thing is going to shake out but I assume it will take several years. If, in the end, the existing system is blown up, I’m ok with that. I’m confident that the Jadeveon Clowney’s of the world will still find a place to play football and develop their skills, you as a lover of minor league football will still be able to pay your money to watch him do that, and Wesleyan University will still have an intercollegiate football team and an equestrian club team.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

I cannot trust any forecast of doom that comes from a college administrator. They are the ones raking in the money and not sharing with the players who are getting the concussions.

Mostly I hear a plantation owner complaining that there will be no more cotton if he has to treat the sharecroppers like employees.

 

[methodology]

Or at least cease to exist as we currently know it. I'm OK with that. Why is it incumbent upon the University system to act as the minor league feeder system for the pros?

Colleges/Universities already have the infrastructure and system set up to be the minor leagues for football, bball, etc. The professional leagues, outside of baseball, do not have the desire to spend what it will cost to build that infrastructure and put that system in place. They would have to hire more coaches, trainers, front office people, lease buildings/offices, build/lease stadiums, etc...

Baseball is a different animal and cant be compared as it has had their minor league system set up since the beginning. Also I highly doubt the top players in football and basketball would enjoy playing in the minors like in baseball. The minor leagues in baseball is a horrible living experience for 95% of the minor leaguers. Outside of those drafted who receive large bonuses the rest of the guys are getting paid squat. They cant afford food so they eat like crap, most of them have 2nd jobs outside of baseball to take care of their family and themselves, they live in either host family homes or places worse than dorms, they travel on buses and most of the facilities are not equipped with the essentials for a weight training regiment. Not to mention they are under team control for 6 years and get paid an extreme discount until they are arbitration eligible or FA eligible after the 7th year.

I highly doubt the football players and bball players realize how great they have it right now compared to the lower level minor leaguers in baseball. Let them spend a year or 2 in the minor leagues of baseball and I'm sure they will change their minds of wanting to be paid. They have better housing, better transportation, better weight training and meal programs not to mention they are receiving a free education while making valuable connections for after college.

 

[huskymedic]

Amid Cheers, Union Bid Stirs Concern for Women
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/04/s...sports-is-uncertain.html?hpw&rref=sports&_r=0

Read the article, but leave it to Geno (lol):

>>It is expected to be years before the issue of athletes and unions is settled. For now, there are mushrooming questions. If athletes are employees, will colleges have to hire as many female employees as male employees? What job security would athletes have if they did not live up to the conditions of their hiring?

What if a women’s basketball player at Connecticut, for instance, could not provide double figures in points and rebounds as expected?

“I’m actually in favor of paying them, but I’m also in favor of firing them if they’re not any good,” said Coach Geno Auriemma, who is seeking his ninth N.C.A.A. title. “I think that’s fair.”<<

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

I don't think that's true. Universities will still feel compelled to provide a college experience and that college experience could still include both intercollegiate and club sports. Thousands upon thousands of kids could still play sports in college, just not as a feeder system for the pros...and without a $350 million stadium and without a $5 million/year coach. Hundreds of colleges and universities around the nation do that today.

I don’t know how this thing is going to shake out but I assume it will take several years. If, in the end, the existing system is blown up, I’m ok with that. I’m confident that the Jadeveon Clowney’s of the world will still find a place to play football and develop their skills, you as a lover of minor league football will still be able to pay your money to watch him do that, and Wesleyan University will still have an intercollegiate football team and an equestrian club team.

At least you're missing the point by a mile. They will not feel compelled to do anything. Schools will no longer shell out the dough needed to run an athletics program with scholarship athletes. Club sports only. Meaning less kids go to college.

 

[Johnny Mac]

At least you're missing the point by a mile. They will not feel compelled to do anything. Schools will no longer shell out the dough needed to run an athletics program with scholarship athletes. Club sports only. Meaning less kids go to college.

I might be missing your point, but if I am, it's not by a mile. I accept that you think schools will no longer shell out the dough needed to run an athletics program with scholarship athletes. But who is really shelling out the dough? The cost of attending UCONN has increased about 2000% since I graduated and they're still teaching the engineering students from the same books as when I was there. How much of that is due to having to keep up with the Jones'?

What if we blow up the system? How about we create a system for football and basketball like they have in Europe for professional soccer? Double the number of NFL and NBA teams to perhaps 50-60. Get teams in places like OKC, Austin, San Antonio, Portland, San Jose, Columbus, etc. Then, have the NFL and NBA teams scour the planet for 14 year old phenoms, carry the responsibility of educating them, teach them football or basketball, care for them medically. They could have 18U teams, 21U teams, a reserve squad, etc. You'd have a Premier League and a second division with relegation and promotion.

Would the colleges and universities drop all athletic programs for men and women? I doubt it. While my proposal would be a game changer, I feel colleges and universities would continue to offer athletic programs, albeit in a reduced capacity. I need to be convinced that that is a bad thing.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Ha! Geno.

Problem with firing a union employee, is the union. Wouldn't stop Geno though I bet. That's an angle that didn't even occur to me. Probably because I actually like the concept of academics and athletics being symbiotic and not adversarial. But, to fire a union employee, you need to establish a track record of issues that warrant failure and you have to essentially demonstrate proof that it had to be done. If say - UCONN 'hires' an 'unionized athlete' to compete on the women's basketball court, and very clearly lays out "job responsibilities" including things like rebounds, and points and assists - and the player repeatedly fails to meet job standards.......fired.

I like it.

 

[methodology]

I might be missing your point, but if I am, it's not by a mile. I accept that you think schools will no longer shell out the dough needed to run an athletics program with scholarship athletes. But who is really shelling out the dough? The cost of attending UCONN has increased about 2000% since I graduated and they're still teaching the engineering students from the same books as when I was there. How much of that is due to having to keep up with the Jones'?

What if we blow up the system? How about we create a system for football and basketball like they have in Europe for professional soccer? Double the number of NFL and NBA teams to perhaps 50-60. Get teams in places like OKC, Austin, San Antonio, Portland, San Jose, Columbus, etc. Then, have the NFL and NBA teams scour the planet for 14 year old phenoms, carry the responsibility of educating them, teach them football or basketball, care for them medically. They could have 18U teams, 21U teams, a reserve squad, etc. You'd have a Premier League and a second division with relegation and promotion.

Would the colleges and universities drop all athletic programs for men and women? I doubt it. While my proposal would be a game changer, I feel colleges and universities would continue to offer athletic programs, albeit in a reduced capacity. I need to be convinced that that is a bad thing.

Who is funding this minor league system you speak about?

I don't think you are realizing how expensive and how much money NFL and NBA would have to shell out to put a minor league system in place.

If its not the NFL and NBA funding it what incentives do universities have to continue to fund this system?

The NFL and NBA are perfectly happy with the current setup. They don't want to be the ones funding a minor league system.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

Well northwestern isn't non-conforming. They released a statement saying they're going to fight the ruling and they don't agree with it.

And here comes the New York Times and Joe Nocera.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/o...in-college-sports.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

 

[Johnny Mac]

Who is funding this minor league system you speak about?

I don't think you are realizing how expensive and how much money NFL and NBA would have to shell out to put a minor league system in place.

If its not the NFL and NBA funding it what incentives do universities have to continue to fund this system?

The NFL and NBA are perfectly happy with the current setup. They don't want to be the ones funding a minor league system.

Of course they are happy with the current system; of course they don't want to fund a minor league system. F'em. They've been printing money for the last 50 years, reaping the benefit of me funding player development. Time for things to change.

 

[J187Money]

I wonder what happens when the IRS decides that the value of the education should be taxed for those in a union.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I wonder what happens when the IRS decides that the value of the education should be taxed for those in a union.

Would put unionized intercollegiate scholarship athletes into an interesting tax bracket - huh?