Northwestern players win right to unionize

[DoctorWho85]

Those people are at the tops of their respective careers. The college athlete is more akin to an intern than those you listed. Many internships are not paid, I know I wasnt when I interned at the state capital. Should I of demanded the same wage as the Governor was getting?

The highest paid NFL salaries make those you cherry picked look like chump change. The players right now are interning for those NFL jobs. In the meantime they're compensated handsomely in ways I only wish I was. Must be a hard life being the man on campus and on the football team with no student loan debt to worry about and girls falling over themselves to get at you. Poor saps.

I thought the same exact thing. I wish I could have interned for free AND got a free ride through my entire college career. I think these kids are compensated very well for what they bring the the schools they play for. No places that I know of will offer you free on job training (playing college football in the case) with a nice back up plan (college degree) in case that falls through. I can get behind the stipend thing because, as posted before, most graduate students get free education with a stipend so why can't that model work for college athletes at well? Just my line of thinking.

 

[BlueMAB]

Is this a bad thing, ending college sports as we know it? IMHO, college sports could use a shake up and I'm OK with labor doing the shaking.

Yes. This is a bad thing. A very bad thing. College sports go way beyond men's football and basketball.

College baseball. Say goodbye. Why? Because with title IX schools that choose to pay athletes will need to save money while keeping enough (revenue losing) women's sports around to comply with the law. Why keep baseball around when kids are drafted out of high school and there is an established minor league? Hockey? Soccer? Many schools could slash those too.

And yes, let's let big labor take over, a corrupt organization that looks to silence the individual and take away your voice as an individual do what they think is best for their coffers.

Take Alex Rodriguez, the most over-paid and hated player in MLB who was willing to do the unthinkable and take a pay cut in order to play for the Red Sox until the union came in and told him he didn't have the right to work where he wanted to to work for what he wanted to work for.

What happens when that star football player wants to take a pay cut and transfer back home to State U to be closer to a sick family member. Is the union going to allow it?

Are there going to be tiers for compensation? Is that based on their experience? How do you justify a redshirt freshman QB making more than a 5th year MLB?

What happens if a player doesn't want to be in a union? What happens to walk-ons? Are they in the union? We've sent former walk-ons to the NFL. Should they have been paying union dues?

There is a much easier way to manage this and it's with individual contracts between each school and each player, without anything to do with unions.

 

[ecasadoSBU]

And yes, let's let big labor take over, a corrupt organization that looks to silence the individual and take away your voice as an individual do what they think is best for their coffers.

First things first: You have little or NO voice as individuals in the first place! "United we stand, divided we fall". Wall St. and Big Corporations know how important is to advocate for their interests, which is fine with me, as long as there is a balance and employees also advocate for their rights. Once you have that balance gone you big corporations figuring out ways to ck with their employees and exploit every loophole possible. Its the way it works in capitalism: if you have an interest you fight for it... If you can unite with 100million more Americans to do so, even better

----
in regards to corrupt organizations

Corrupt organization? No doubt there are some bad apples within the organizations, like any other organization. But to deem labor unions as corrupt organizations is misguided.

 

[BlueMAB]

First things first: You have little or NO voice as individuals in the first place! "United we stand, divided we fall". Wall St. and Big Corporations know how important is to advocate for their interests, which is fine with me, as long as there is a balance and employees also advocate for their rights. Once you have that balance gone you big corporations figuring out ways to ck with their employees and exploit every loophole possible. Its the way it works in capitalism: if you have an interest you fight for it... If you can unite with 100million more Americans to do so, even better

----
in regards to corrupt organizations

Corrupt organization? No doubt there are some bad apples within the organizations, like any other organization. But to deem labor unions as corrupt organizations is misguided.

Wrong.

And wrong.

You have little or no idea of what you're talking about, but there is no changing your mind, so I won't waste your time or mine explaining it to you.

Unions are great for the lowest common denominator. For achievers, not so much.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The NCAA makes 11 BILLION dollars off March Madness alone but yeah the players are the greedy ones. (not that you're saying that, I'm summarizing the general attitude of those opposed to players get paid.)

And no, I haven't seen a perfect solution proposed yet but it boggles my mind that everyone jumps to a doom and gloom scenario, when the money IS there, just for everyone but the athletes.

I agree that there is plenty o money to go around. I'm all for the redistribution of income - when it comes to stuff like this. Why? Because the conference offices - the commissioners - the college football post season......the NCAA itself - has produced NOTHING to earn the television broadcasting income. It's the athletes (and the coaches) who do it.

It's been 30 years since the flood gates were opened. In those 30 years, there is only one intercollegiate conference in the entire country that has not had major shake up and some sort of problem around the growing divide between athletics and academics (two things - which IMSNHO - should be closely tied together) and that conference is the Ivy League.

The Ivy League doesn't give crap, b/c they among their 8 institutions have more money than the GDP of most countries on the globe. The rest of the division 1 intercollegiate world actually has to be concerned about things like annual budgets and fund raising, etc.

I don't have a solution, other than what I've already suggested - which I don't even know if it's legally possible - but I hope so. This thing needs to make it's way very quickly to the U.S. Supreme Court, and at that point, the Supreme Court needs to figure out a way to close the gates they opened up 30 years ago, and establish some kind of order again.

As far as the doom and gloom, I do disagree. Once a student - ANY student - in any way shape or form at an academic institution is considered "labor" the entire concept of an educational system is corrupted. I think it's pretty clear that if this thing makes it through the courts and is upheld, is that scholarship athletics is finished - and that means ALL sports - no more athletic scholarships. And those schools that want to try to keep the academics and athletics combined mission going will be what real academic institutions are supposed to be - (no more UNC football).....OR - the schools like UNC......will just begin to use all the money to start financing a new professional sports conglomerate of all kinds of sports that carry a particular university affiliate name and brand.

 

[Dizzy21]

Yeah some administrators at Ohio State don't make money of the football players, just off the WRESTLERS: http://deadspin.com/ohio-state-ad-gets-18-000-because-a-wrestler-won-a-tit-1551289573

So do you think the AD is more deserving of that $18K compared to the athlete?

Yeah some administrators at Ohio State don't make money of the football players, just off the WRESTLERS: http://deadspin.com/ohio-state-ad-gets-18-000-because-a-wrestler-won-a-tit-1551289573

So do you think the AD is more deserving of that $18K compared to the athlete?

Yes, the athlete is way overcompensated as is. A professional wrestler (not the wwe kind, this kind) makes zero dollars, because there is no league. Therefore it would not take a genius to figure out that between scholarship and housing and the benefit of the wrestler being able to do what he loves in wrestling, he is actually making out like a bandit. On the other hand it seems that the Ohio State AD is doing a bang up job across the board and is still paid less that Nebraska's and Wisconsin's ADs and about a third of Vanderbilt's. I would definitely vote to give him a lot more than 18k in a raise...

 

[ecasadoSBU]

Wrong.

And wrong.

You have little or no idea of what you're talking about, but there is no changing your mind, so I won't waste your time or mine explaining it to you.

Unions are great for the lowest common denominator. For achievers, not so much.

That's a nice way to end a discussion. Declare yourself as the intelligent one, yet not add any intellectual value to it

 

[Dizzy21]

Wrong.

And wrong.

You have little or no idea of what you're talking about, but there is no changing your mind, so I won't waste your time or mine explaining it to you.

Unions are great for the lowest common denominator. For achievers, not so much.

Your last statement points to a great fact, how on earth do all these Wall Street guys get filthy rich if they have no Union? I mean wouldn't Goldman Sachs just exploit them and make them work for nothing in a dungeon? They are in fact the big powerful corporations putting down every individual who doesn't band up together and fight the power.

In reality when you look at it, the only ones out there forcing someone to do something they don't want to do is the Unions, forcing you to pay dues. If I want to go and be a teacher because I love it, work for zero dollars a year because I am was a big fat cat Wall Street Greedy Corporate Monster, and I wanted to make up for that, the Union would literally not allow me to do that. I would have to join the union, be paid the wage and pay the union their dues. Something about that sounds evil, and its not the Greedy Wall Street part.

In the end though, I say why don't we just get rid of scholarships and pay the athletes what they deserve. Looking at the D-league salaries that would be about 17,000 minus taxes of course, and looking at Arena Football Salaries that would be 50k minus taxes, which would make it maybe 40k of actual money. Pretty much every other sport would earn nothing, so you would have a situation where every single athlete was worse off than they are now, but hey, no worries, the union would be collecting their dues...

 

[BlueMAB]

That's a nice way to end a discussion. Declare yourself as the intelligent one, yet not add any intellectual value to it

I didn't say you weren't intelligent, just wrong. I'm already certain you think I'm wrong, but I'm not offended by it.

If I thought you'd understand why you're wrong I'd try, but there's no point. You think you're better off hitching your future to 100 million Americans. I have more confidence in myself than that.

 

[ecasadoSBU]

I didn't say you weren't intelligent, just wrong. I'm already certain you think I'm wrong, but I'm not offended by it.

If I thought you'd understand why you're wrong I'd try, but there's no point. You think you're better off hitching your future to 100 million Americans. I have more confidence in myself than that.

No one is hitching their future away to 100 million americans. You are simply fighting for a common cause. How is it better for 100 million individuals to separately fight for the same cause vs. 100 million united. It doesn't make sense. If I walk out right now from work for the next four days as protest for unsafe labor then I'll probably get fired, but if everyone walks out together, who's gonna get fired? You make a bigger statement united. This is something basic. I don't know how you can disagree with that....

This is why you have MLBPA, NFLPA, NBAPA even at the highest level of professional sports where they make millions in earnings but they still see the need to collectively bargain, because the fight never stops. Once you settle down, you start losing those rights that you worked hard for. This is what's happening in America. We had a previous generation that worked hard to get fair salaries at the workplace, yet we are throwing that away and undoing all they've done for us. Look at the inequality gap how it has grown since the 1970s, a serious issue that cannot be fought by a single individual...

With that said, I recognize I've gone way off topic. I'll stop here. Labor unions is interesting topic....


Back to the athletes...

 

[ecasadoSBU]

Your last statement points to a great fact, how on earth do all these Wall Street guys get filthy rich if they have no Union? I mean wouldn't Goldman Sachs just exploit them and make them work for nothing in a dungeon? They are in fact the big powerful corporations putting down every individual who doesn't band up together and fight the power.

In reality when you look at it, the only ones out there forcing someone to do something they don't want to do is the Unions, forcing you to pay dues. If I want to go and be a teacher because I love it, work for zero dollars a year because I am was a big fat cat Wall Street Greedy Corporate Monster, and I wanted to make up for that, the Union would literally not allow me to do that. I would have to join the union, be paid the wage and pay the union their dues. Something about that sounds evil, and its not the Greedy Wall Street part.

In the end though, I say why don't we just get rid of scholarships and pay the athletes what they deserve. Looking at the D-league salaries that would be about 17,000 minus taxes of course, and looking at Arena Football Salaries that would be 50k minus taxes, which would make it maybe 40k of actual money. Pretty much every other sport would earn nothing, so you would have a situation where every single athlete was worse off than they are now, but hey, no worries, the union would be collecting their dues...

Such a unrealistic and hypothetical situation. Who the hell wants to get pay less for being a teacher? You can love your profession (like most of do), doesn't meant you want to do it for free however... Union dues is the price you pay so that you can all collectively defend each other (legal battles, lobbying, negotiations, etc).

 

[JayRU09]

If this kills Syracuse athletics I am A-OK with it. Just don't touch the public schools.

 

[sportsart]

I don't want to jump in on either side of the debate because I want to see where this thing goes and what shape it takes. However, I find it hilarious that some of you have said that you "are done with college sports" if it happens. Like hell you are! I'll see you here 5 years from now, no matter what happens...

Dan....I, and many others will be done with it, if it goes through with the unionization of college sports. I am all for them getting a nice stipend, say in the 3-5K range. But if you get unionized you are looking at raising the bar every year in terms of more money. Then what happens if the union wants the stipend at 10K per year and they don't get it? A strike....? Not for me thanks. I despise the NBA, don't even know if the NHL still exsists and the NFL is...eh...

But college athletics is what makes me excited. What the CR has done to college sports makes me ill. But I can still root for the athletes.

If they unionize, college sports and the NCAA, as we know it, is ruined forever. I think $200K-300K in tuition plus a nice stipend of say $4k is enough.

I can't fathom the cheating that will take place if the playing field gets more uneven than it already is.

 

[sportsart]

Unions arguably being out of control over the last 50 years does nothing to change the fact that they unequivocally have helped improve the lives of every single working-class American in every walk of life.

Indiana football/basketball generates $40 million in TV revenue, once the new Big Ten deal is done. Hell yes, the athletes who are the reason absolutely deserve AT LEAST a stipend.

If unions are so great, why are their fewer and fewer of them in existence today? Unions had/have their place but usually get greedy and protect workers who are useless or abuse the system.

 

[Dizzy21]

Such a unrealistic and hypothetical situation. Who the hell wants to get pay less for being a teacher? You can love your profession (like most of do), doesn't meant you want to do it for free however... Union dues is the price you pay so that you can all collectively defend each other (legal battles, lobbying, negotiations, etc).

You want a real world situation you got it...Look at what happened about a month ago to the UAW in the Tennessee VW plant, they were allowed to go and pitch themselves and had the support of VW. The workers voted against Unionizing for the exact same reasons you give that they should want to unionize. That is the real world, and the fact is that being non-union, they actually make more than the UAW unionized employees...below is a little quote from an article about it



"More workers were persuaded to vote against the union by the UAW's past of bitter battles with management, costly labor contracts and complex work rules. "If the union comes in, we'll have a divided work force," said Cheryl Hawkins, 44, an assembly line worker with three sons. "It will ruin what we have."

Other UAW opponents said they dislike the union's support of politicians who back causes like abortion rights and gun control that rub against the conservative bent of Southern states like Tennessee. Still others objected to paying dues to a union from Detroit that is aligned with Volkswagen competitors like GM and Ford.

"I just don't trust them," said Danielle Brunner, 23, who has worked at the plant for nearly three years and makes about $20 an hour—about $5 an hour more than new hires at GM, Ford and Chrysler plants."

 

[UConnDan97]

Dan....I, and many others will be done with it, if it goes through with the unionization of college sports. I am all for them getting a nice stipend, say in the 3-5K range. But if you get unionized you are looking at raising the bar every year in terms of more money. Then what happens if the union wants the stipend at 10K per year and they don't get it? A strike....? Not for me thanks. I despise the NBA, don't even know if the NHL still exsists and the NFL is...eh...

But college athletics is what makes me excited. What the CR has done to college sports makes me ill. But I can still root for the athletes.

If they unionize, college sports and the NCAA, as we know it, is ruined forever. I think $200K-300K in tuition plus a nice stipend of say $4k is enough.

I can't fathom the cheating that will take place if the playing field gets more uneven than it already is.

If you say that's what you'll do, then so be it. But knowing how die-hard all of the fans on this board are (you included), you'll have to forgive me if I take a "I'll believe it when I see it" stance...

 

[sportsart]

If you say that's what you'll do, then so be it. But knowing how die-hard all of the fans on this board are (you included), you'll have to forgive me if I take a "I'll believe it when I see it" stance...

I find it hard to believe it when I say it too. But....think it through. IF this union thing went through, and I think it's still a big if, it would only affect private institutions, if I read it correctly. I can't even fathom what recruiting would look like. Come to BCU and you get an extra $10K a year or go to UConn and only get $2K.

While I doubt that will ever be the case you then have the NCAA and the P5....it would be a freaking nightmare.

That is why I believe it will either never happen or the golden goose will lie dead.

 

[Dizzy21]

I find it hard to believe it when I say it too. But....think it through. IF this union thing went through, and I think it's still a big if, it would only affect private institutions, if I read it correctly. I can't even fathom what recruiting would look like. Come to BCU and you get an extra $10K a year or go to UConn and only get $2K.

While I doubt that will ever be the case you then have the NCAA and the P5....it would be a freaking nightmare.

That is why I believe it will either never happen or the golden goose will lie dead.

I look at it more this way, come to BC and you can get 10k a year, but our coaches and facilities suck because we can't afford to pay them or come to UConn get 2k and work with some of the best coaches and facilities around. I know some may choose the fast money, but I would imagine any serious athlete would choose UConn in that case.

 

[Dizzy21]

I find it hard to believe it when I say it too. But....think it through. IF this union thing went through, and I think it's still a big if, it would only affect private institutions, if I read it correctly. I can't even fathom what recruiting would look like. Come to BCU and you get an extra $10K a year or go to UConn and only get $2K.

While I doubt that will ever be the case you then have the NCAA and the P5....it would be a freaking nightmare.

That is why I believe it will either never happen or the golden goose will lie dead.

I look at it more this way, come to BC and you can get 10k a year, but our coaches and facilities suck because we can't afford to pay them or come to UConn get 2k and work with some of the best coaches and facilities around. I know some may choose the fast money, but I would imagine any serious athlete would choose UConn in that case.

In all honesty, this creates a huge dilemma for the private schools, not most of the P5. Say BC for example has to pay he kids 10k and they were still able to afford a coach and whatever, they would immediately be in violation of NCAA rules and their entire team would be ruled ineligible to play against NCAA opponents...

 

[FAIRTIDES]

This is a showstopper for me. I have battled unions and have seen the destruction they have caused in the Northeast and the Rust Belt states for 20 plus years. I have been physically assaulted, threatened, spat at, had vehicles egged, tires slashed, and have been prevented from entering facilities due to erroneous picket lines. I have seen their actions add up to thousands and thousands of dollars of additional cost to my customers due to her arcane rules and regulations. I have been escorted out of many facilities for violating the most minor union rules, thus costing the customer and companies thousands of additional dollars. I have seen them protect the worst of the worst of employees have no business being employed. There is a reason heavily unionized Northeastern and Rust Belt states are losing population. I really enjoy watching college football. I already cut the cable cord because of what ESPN (I'm from Bristol ) has done to us concerning our conference realignment situation. I won't support ESPN why we are in conference purgatory. I simply will not support college football if it goes to a union pay system. Student athletes receive tens of thousands of dollars a year in compensation in the form of tuition, room and board, full medical, academic support, and numerous other benefits. I have no problem with student athletes receipt of a small stipend. Everything that unions get involved with they simply destroy. It's no surprise this started in Chicago.

Look at the bright side. Stuff you described above could happen to Emmert.

 

[FAIRTIDES]

I don't agree with the unionized employee model for college athletes, but students should have some say in the framework they are playing under.
I'm OK with stipends, but I believe student athletes should be able to profit however they see fit via their personal likeness/autographs/marketing/etc.

Bingo!!!!! If a company wants to enlist a Napier or Cochran to do promotional work, SN and/or CC should benefit. And, the Title IX argument goes away. Title IX can dictate that the Badminton player receive equal treatment within that which a University has control. It can't dictate that sponsors provide promotional opportunities on an equal basis to unequal "Q" factors.

 

[sportsart]

Bingo!!!!! If a company wants to enlist a Napier or Cochran to do promotional work, SN and/or CC should benefit. And, the Title IX argument goes away. Title IX can dictate that the Badminton player receive equal treatment within that which a University has control. It can't dictate that sponsors provide promotional opportunities on an equal basis to unequal "Q" factors.

In theory this sounds good except for one thing. "Hey come to UConn and one of our boosters, who owns a car dealership, will buy 100 autographed posters for $1,000 a piece. Quick $100,000. Then the same player goes to another school and they offer $200 per signing. That's a quick $200,000. Then he goes......etc, etc....

 

[ecasadoSBU]

You want a real world situation you got it...Look at what happened about a month ago to the UAW in the Tennessee VW plant, they were allowed to go and pitch themselves and had the support of VW. The workers voted against Unionizing for the exact same reasons you give that they should want to unionize. That is the real world, and the fact is that being non-union, they actually make more than the UAW unionized employees...below is a little quote from an article about it



"More workers were persuaded to vote against the union by the UAW's past of bitter battles with management, costly labor contracts and complex work rules. "If the union comes in, we'll have a divided work force," said Cheryl Hawkins, 44, an assembly line worker with three sons. "It will ruin what we have."

Other UAW opponents said they dislike the union's support of politicians who back causes like abortion rights and gun control that rub against the conservative bent of Southern states like Tennessee. Still others objected to paying dues to a union from Detroit that is aligned with Volkswagen competitors like GM and Ford.

"I just don't trust them," said Danielle Brunner, 23, who has worked at the plant for nearly three years and makes about $20 an hour—about $5 an hour more than new hires at GM, Ford and Chrysler plants."

Good read. I read the article. This is an interesting situation because it seems like the labor union is desperate for members because it needs bargaining power to increase the hourly rate of current members, yet in this case it offers little to potential members (the VW employees) because they currently get paid higher than the rate of those in the union. So the labor union its in a bit of a catch-22 situation. They can't bargain for a higher rate without more membership, and potential members don't want to join due to the pay cut. That probably explains why VW executives were so willing to negotiate with the union in the first place...

Yet, this is not what I was considering hypothetical in your previous statement. You stated the situation in which and employee would actually turn down a union because they prefer getting paid less than the union rate, and the case you showed me is actually the opposite

 

[Dizzy21]

Good read. I read the article. This is an interesting situation because it seems like the labor union is desperate for members because it needs bargaining power to increase the hourly rate of current members, yet in this case it offers little to potential members (the VW employees) because they currently get paid higher than the rate of those in the union. So the labor union its in a bit of a catch-22 situation. They can't bargain for a higher rate without more membership, and potential members don't want to join due to the pay cut. That probably explains why VW executives were so willing to negotiate with the union in the first place...

Yet, this is not what I was considering hypothetical in your previous statement. You stated the situation in which and employee would actually turn down a union because they prefer getting paid less than the union rate, and the case you showed me is actually the opposite

With the VW deal, the reason the executives were willing to deal with the union is because they are forced to in Germany, so the German union essentially had to work with the UAW in the states, there are weird laws that say they can't directly from Germany. Therefore the company just thought it would be easier not to object.

But to make the point that the UAW does not have enough members to bargain is a bit crazy, they have 400,000 members. I don't know what critical mass you need for your union to have power, but that is one of the larger unions in the world. They once had 1.5 million members and the reason they don't now is? It's because they thought that there was this magic money out there that some greedy corporations were taking and they thought they should take it, but it turns out they were wrong about the money and those companies went belly up and 1.1 mln of them lost there jobs.

I'm pretty sure this next article sums up the fact that my other point was not hypothetical, every day people turn down money because they don't want the restrictions of the union, they want freedom to be better and it's not all about the money. This is the main reason that there is such a huge union battle with the right to work states, they realize that if they don't put a gun to people's heads, they won't join the union. Listen, I have no problem with people forming a union, the problem I have is being forced to join the union if I want to take any particular job. I am more than happy to negotiate for myself and deal with those consequences, but what I am not comfortable with is getting together and forcing people to follow me if they want to work. But as you asked, the point is that people are willing to work for less if they don't have to abide by the union rules, and the following article is about just that...

http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20110424/LOCAL04/304249877/1002/LOCAL

 

[NotreDameJoe]

Dan....I, and many others will be done with it, if it goes through with the unionization of college sports. I am all for them getting a nice stipend, say in the 3-5K range. But if you get unionized you are looking at raising the bar every year in terms of more money. Then what happens if the union wants the stipend at 10K per year and they don't get it? A strike....? Not for me thanks. I despise the NBA, don't even know if the NHL still exsists and the NFL is...eh...

But college athletics is what makes me excited. What the CR has done to college sports makes me ill. But I can still root for the athletes.

If they unionize, college sports and the NCAA, as we know it, is ruined forever. I think $200K-300K in tuition plus a nice stipend of say $4k is enough.

I can't fathom the cheating that will take place if the playing field gets more uneven than it already is.

The cheating is what happens in certain places where the compensation comes in cash. Honest compensation above the table would hurt a certain conference.

I am a bit more skeptical of the union idea, based on the way existing unions think they are there to manage the entirecompany instead of just protect the workers.