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Non-Key Tweets

Ldandy said:
Big 8 +2 OU, UNL, OSU, KU, MU, KSU, ISU, CU, Cincy

A bit trickier after 8. Added Cincy as they are technically Midwest and carry a P5 AD. For # 10 I'll add Tulsa strictly for geographic purposes, but another top MAC School like N Illinois or Conf USA Program like Marshall could be an add here. A lot harder to find worthy programs and geographic fits in this portion of the country.


New MWC- BYU, Utah, BSU, Wyoming, New Mexico, CSU, UNLV, SDSU, FSU, UH

A geographically spread out conference that touches on areas throughout the Western US. Not a powerhouse on the field, but needed if you want to put on a tournament that is inclusive of the whole country.
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For the Big 8 I would add Colorado State and Memphis. Adding a possible 2nd trip to the Denver market could be a boon for the travelling Husker fans. Plus Fort Collins is a nice area. Memphis puts them into the deep South and new recruiting territory.

Air Force already has a tradition of playing the MWC teams so I could still put them there. Have CSU become an OOC game. Or you could put Nevada-Reno in place of .
 
CoastAtlantic said:
For the Big 8 I would add Colorado State and Memphis. Adding a possible 2nd trip to the Denver market could be a boon for the travelling Husker fans. Plus Fort Collins is a nice area. Memphis puts them into the deep South and new recruiting territory.

Air Force already has a tradition of playing the MWC teams so I could still put them there. Have CSU become an OOC game. Or you could put Nevada-Reno in place of .
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I originally had CSU in The Big 8, but felt I needed a few more teams in The MWC that had some football history/upside. I left out The AFA initially because I couldn't find slots for Army/Navy. Memphis feels a bit too distant from The Big 8 to fit in to the geographic cohesiveness angle I was going for. Leaving Army aside for a moment, as they have chosen to exclude themselves from conference affiliation, you might be able to sneak Navy into The MWC because of their national following and ties to the west coast. The AAC is already doing this.

Big 8- OU, OSU, UNL, KU, KSU, MU, ISU, CU, CSU, Cincy

MWC- BYU, Utah, BSU, Wyoming, UNM, UNLV, AFA, Navy, SDSU, UH

This version unites CU and CSU as rivals and gives The Husker Fans their extra Denver Area Trip. The MWC can then add in AFA and Navy, giving it a more national appeal, while only sacrificing Fresno State. Navy draws well everywhere it goes, and would have great support playing at both SDSU and UH.
 
Seaa Blue said:
Sounds about right.

Big Ten holds talks with Notre Dame

11-19-2003 ("never, ever...", except for that one time, and the time before that ;))
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Yet, other than a hockey affiliation, here we are in 2017 and ND is not a Big Ten member despite 1999, 2003, 2010 and all of Jim Delany's efforts and hopes.

With the ACC GOR, exit fee and the ND deal with ACC/any football membership, Delany's goal of "checkmating" ND into full Big Ten membership is further away than ever.
 
Sea Goat said:
Who gives an ? It is bastion of pedestrian intellects. I couldn't give an what they do...
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I can't speak to the quality of the intellects (I guess take a look at their acceptance rate) but what they do affects lots of other things in conference realignment.
 
TerryD said:
Yet, other than a hockey affiliation, here we are in 2017 and ND is not a Big Ten member despite 1999, 2003, 2010 and all of Jim Delany's efforts and hopes.

With the ACC GOR, exit fee and the ND deal with ACC/any football membership, Delany's goal of "checkmating" ND into full Big Ten membership is further away than ever.
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You have an odd view of things. The B1G wouldn't give ND the type of sweetheart deal that The ACC ultimately did. Is it really more complicated than that? If they would have offered the same thing there's a good chance that ND would be an affiliate member of The B1G today instead of The ACC.

Ultimately its irrelevant because that type of offer was never coming. The B1G was never in a position where ND could leverage them like they did to The ACC. The fact that ND is in The B1G for hockey is solely a marriage of convenience. ND needed to cut down on travel, and the B1G wanted to add teams with brand value to their league. No different than adding JHU for Lax. They each get something out of the arrangement.

I won't downplay that ND carries great brand value, however The B1G has that is spades. If a time ever comes where there is interest from ND in being a part of the conference, I'm sure they will be in. The money is too great for it not to happen. That said I prefer being in a position of wanting something w/o needing it. It allows you to deal from a position of strength as opposed to where The ACC was a few years ago.
 
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Ldandy said:
You have an odd view of things. The B1G wouldn't give ND the type of sweetheart deal that The ACC ultimately did. Is it really more complicated than that? If they would have offered the same thing there's a good chance that ND would be an affiliate member of The B1G today instead of The ACC.

Ultimately its irrelevant because that type of offer was never coming. The B1G was never in a position where ND could leverage them like they did to The ACC. The fact that ND is in The B1G for hockey is solely a marriage of convenience. ND needed to cut down on travel, and the B1G wanted to add teams with brand value to their league. No different than adding JHU for Lax. They each get something out of the arrangement.

I won't downplay that ND carries great brand value, however The B1G has that is spades. If a time ever comes where there is interest from ND in being a part of the conference, I'm sure they will be in. The money is too great for it not to happen. That said I prefer being in a position of wanting something w/o needing it. It allows you to deal from a position of strength as opposed to where The ACC was a few years ago.
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Your view is odd. The Big Ten has been chasing ND for decades, including this last round of realignment (especially in 2010-11 when sportswriters were praising Delany as a genius and saying he may have "checkmated" ND). That is hardly a big secret.

ND rejected the offer in 1999 and has been making moves all along (Big East in 1995, ACC in 2012) to keep football and basketball out of the Big Ten.

ND is not going to join the Big Ten ever in any sport other than hockey. I doubt it would have chosen the Big Ten with a sweetheart deal over the Big East and then the ACC, because it doesn't want to be regionalized as a Midwest school only and it wanted exposure along the Atlantic seaboard for recruiting and other reasons.

There will never be a time in the future when ND will have "interest in being part of the conference". The money is not the main issue for ND, so that is not the most relevant factor.

You act as if ND would have come running to the Big Ten's arms if a partial deal like the ACC or Big East had ever been offered. That is not correct at all.

I was responding to Sea Blue's post but don't want to hijack this thread any further. My apologies.
 
ivrytontusker said:
I can't speak to the quality of the intellects (I guess take a look at their acceptance rate) but what they do affects lots of other things in conference realignment.
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Don't mind me - I always bop ND when I get a chance. In all seriousness. it is a fine school. But, they do play in a conference that has Louisville as a member...
 
TerryD said:
Your view is odd. The Big Ten has been chasing ND for decades, including this last round of realignment (especially in 2010-11 when sportswriters were praising Delany as a genius and saying he may have "checkmated" ND). That is hardly a big secret.

The B1G chased ND for years when it made a lot of sense to do so. They were an 11 team conference looking for a valuable 12th team to add in order to host a lucrative conference title game. A game which their rivals The SEC and Big 12 were already playing at the time. ND located in the middle of B1G Territory and with established rivalries against a number of conference members made sense.

ND rejected the offer in 1999 and has been making moves all along (Big East in 1995, ACC in 2012) to keep football and basketball out of the Big Ten.

ND Faculty approved of the 1999 move. Big money boosters killed it. ND has not been making moves all along to keep football and basketball out of the B1G. They have been making moves to keep ND Football independent and find a place to stash all of their other teams.

They used their connections with The Catholic 7 to join The Big East, and then barely ever stepped foot on the field with any of its football members. After that conference imploded they used their brand value to leverage a generous deal out of The ACC when that group was dealing from a position of weakness. With founding member UMD already out the door, and rumors swirling that other members were looking for homes in other conferences as well, it was easy to capitalize on this uncertainty in order to land an incredibly favorable deal.

ND is not going to join the Big Ten ever in any sport other than hockey. I doubt it would have chosen the Big Ten with a sweetheart deal over the Big East and then the ACC, because it doesn't want to be regionalized as a Midwest school only and it wanted exposure along the Atlantic seaboard for recruiting and other reasons.

I honestly don't care if ND ever joins The B1G for any sport other than hockey. If they do join someday as an equal member that's fine, if not that's fine too. There are more than enough brands and dollars in the conference already. That said it is speculative at best to say that ND would have turned down a partial offer from the conference, because it is common knowledge that one was not offered. Its a statement that can't be proven true either way.

There will never be a time in the future when ND will have "interest in being part of the conference". The money is not the main issue for ND, so that is not the most relevant factor.

Its short sided to say "there will never be a time" regarding anything. No one knows for sure what the future holds. I fully get that money is not the deciding factor for why ND does what it does. Everything to this point has shown that remaining independent in football and having a place to stash its other teams is its key motivator. Eastern exposure is an overstated concern. Every game played by every major team is on TV now, and major programs like ND are able to recruit anywhere.

You act as if ND would have come running to the Big Ten's arms if a partial deal like the ACC or Big East had ever been offered. That is not correct at all.

Once again this is a statement that can't be proven correct one way or the other. I certainly never claimed that ND would have come running anywhere. However to say they wouldn't have joined The B1G under similar circumstances is unable to proven either.

I was responding to Sea Blue's post but don't want to hijack this thread any further. My apologies.
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They used their connections with The Catholic 7 to join The Big East, and then barely ever stepped foot on the field with any of its football members. After that conference imploded they used their brand value to leverage a generous deal out of The ACC when that group was dealing from a position of weakness. With founding member UMD already out the door, and rumors swirling that other members were looking for homes in other conferences as well, it was easy to capitalize on this uncertainty in order to land an incredibly favorable deal.

This timeline is not accurate even though part of what you suggest is. Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Notre Dame had all announced their intentions to join the ACC before Jim Delany ever approached UMD. Only Louisville has joined after Maryland announced its departure. Jim Delany approached ACC schools after the announcement by Notre Dame because of his frustration at losing ND forever, and his concern of the vulnerability of Penn State in the future. That was confirmed by several sources.

Maryland was the only interested ACC school, and then he turned back to Rutgers who he had been advised 2 years earlier by consultants not to take. But with the PAC12 scheduling agreement having fallen apart, the BTN was looking other places to add subscribers. Rutgers offered New Jersey as well as a partner for Maryland.

The ACC needed to augment its football brand, and while not ideal the 5 Notre Dame games helped do that by showcasing ND games. ESPN paid about $28 million per year to the ACC extra because of adding those games.
 
btstimpy said:
They used their connections with The Catholic 7 to join The Big East, and then barely ever stepped foot on the field with any of its football members. After that conference imploded they used their brand value to leverage a generous deal out of The ACC when that group was dealing from a position of weakness. With founding member UMD already out the door, and rumors swirling that other members were looking for homes in other conferences as well, it was easy to capitalize on this uncertainty in order to land an incredibly favorable deal.

This timeline is not accurate even though part of what you suggest is. Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Notre Dame had all announced their intentions to join the ACC before Jim Delany ever approached UMD. Only Louisville has joined after Maryland announced its departure. Jim Delany approached ACC schools after the announcement by Notre Dame because of his frustration at losing ND forever, and his concern of the vulnerability of Penn State in the future. That was confirmed by several sources.

Maryland was the only interested ACC school, and then he turned back to Rutgers who he had been advised 2 years earlier by consultants not to take. But with the PAC12 scheduling agreement having fallen apart, the BTN was looking other places to add subscribers. Rutgers offered New Jersey as well as a partner for Maryland.

The ACC needed to augment its football brand, and while not ideal the 5 Notre Dame games helped do that by showcasing ND games. ESPN paid about $28 million per year to the ACC extra because of adding those games.
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Ultimately The ACC has allowed ND to use them in much the same way they did The Big East. They are a placeholder for all sports not named football. To put it another way, if ND were a girl and The ACC a guy, she would make it clear that they were just friends. The ACC thinks that eventually they can get ND out of the friend zone and into bed with the conference. That said she's been playing this game for a LONG time and is really good at getting everything she wants while giving little in return.

As for the idea of The B1G being concerned about losing Penn State to another conference, I can assure you that the threat was never real. Especially from Penn State's end.(My source is direct conversation with The AD) You had guys like Barry Alvarez and later Jim Delany using it to justify the importance of growing the conference Eastward to its Western Members. "If we don't do this now, this could happen in the future" A little fear mongering to grease the wheels of progress. The real reasons were always three fold. 1) Gain more exposure in major markets. 2)Open recruiting pipelines for East Coast Students & student athletes to attend conference schools. 3)Get The BTN top rate in areas with major cable/satellite subscriber bases. They have been successful in all three pursuits.
 
Ldandy said:
Ultimately The ACC has allowed ND to use them in much the same way they did The Big East. They are a placeholder for all sports not named football. To put it another way, if ND were a girl and The ACC a guy, she would make it clear that they were just friends. The ACC thinks that eventually they can get ND out of the friend zone and into bed with the conference. That said she's been playing this game for a LONG time and is really good at getting everything she wants while giving little in return.

As for the idea of The B1G being concerned about losing Penn State to another conference, I can assure you that the threat was never real. Especially from Penn State's end.(My source is direct conversation with The AD) You had guys like Barry Alvarez and later Jim Delany using it to justify the importance of growing the conference Eastward to its Western Members. "If we don't do this now, this could happen in the future" A little fear mongering to grease the wheels of progress. The real reasons were always three fold. 1) Gain more exposure in major markets. 2)Open recruiting pipelines for East Coast Students & student athletes to attend conference schools. 3)Get The BTN top rate in areas with major cable/satellite subscriber bases. They have been successful in all three pursuits.
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You keep saying that the ACC got used by giving ND a placeholder for sports and got nothing out of it. The ACC got 5 annual ND football games and about $28 million per year from ESPN. It is 5 football games that the ACC did not have before and $28 million that the ACC did not have before.

The other sports are fine. Everyone is satisfied. ND has given the ACC NCAA men's basketball tournament credits for each year they have played in the league and bowl revenue for 1 year when they played in the Music City Bowl. ACC didn't share when they played in the Fiesta Bowl. ND has its own contract with the CFP.
 
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btstimpy said:
You keep saying that the ACC got used by giving ND a placeholder for sports and got nothing out of it. The ACC got 5 annual ND football games and about $28 million per year from ESPN. It is 5 football games that the ACC did not have before and $28 million that the ACC did not have before.

The other sports are fine. Everyone is satisfied. ND has given the ACC NCAA men's basketball tournament credits for each year they have played in the league and bowl revenue for 1 year when they played in the Music City Bowl. ACC didn't share when they played in the Fiesta Bowl. ND has its own contract with the CFP.
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Didn't the ACC have to extend their deal to get that $28M? Serious question. I only have a vague recollection of the deal at this point and the answer isn't worth googling.
 
CL82 said:
Didn't the ACC have to extend their deal to get that $28M? Serious question. I only have a vague recollection of the deal at this point and the answer isn't worth googling.
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No. The $28 million started in 2013 when ND joined. It has not been disclosed what the extension rates are.
 
btstimpy said:
No. The $28 million started in 2013 when ND joined. It has not been disclosed what the extension rates are.
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So you are saying that there was not any contemporaneous increase in the term of the deal? It all happen pretty fast ND joining, MD leaving, the GOR, so I may be conflating things.
 
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CL82 said:
So you are saying that there was not any contemporaneous increase in the term of the deal?
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It was announced that there was an increase in revenue by ESPN starting in 2017, but it was never announced how much it is. But everyone has signed on until 2036-2037 including Notre Dame. There are 3 5 year contract reviews to reset everything. The next one is in 2022. And if the ACC adds 2 or more members, the contract can be renegotiated. But everything right now is working toward launch of the linear channel in 2019 and with outfitting each of the venues for HD video production.
 
btstimpy said:
It was announced that there was an increase in revenue by ESPN starting in 2017, but it was never announced how much it is. But everyone has signed on until 2036-2037 including Notre Dame.
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Isn't that based on the "ACC network" and extension of the GOR?
 
Yeah, that's what I am hazy on. You said that the ACC got $28M from the ESPN for ND joining. I don't remember that or what the overall specifics of the deal.

ESPN is a wily bunch, there are always kickers in the deal. The 'ACC Network deal' included, IIRC, the extension of the GOR and the acquisition of lower tier rights, so it is tough to say what was the quid pro quo. That's why I'm skeptical of the 'we got $28M for ND joining' claim but I don't remember one way of the other.
 
CL82 said:
Yeah, that's what I am hazy on. You said that the ACC got $28M from the ESPN for ND joining. I don't remember that or what the overall specifics of the deal.

ESPN is a wily bunch, there are always kickers in the deal. The 'ACC Network deal' included, IIRC, the extension of the GOR and the acquisition of lower tier rights, so it is tough to say what was the quid pro quo. That's why I'm skeptical of the 'we got $28M for ND joining' claim but I don't remember one way of the other.
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NBC is reportedly paying $15M a year, so $28 seems a bit of a stretch.

NBC extends ND football deal through 2025
 
Seaa Blue said:
NBC is reportedly paying $15M a year, so $28 seems a bit of a stretch.

NBC extends ND football deal through 2025
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The per school payout to ACC members increased close to $2 million per member after the 5 ND football games added and other sports. With 14 members the math isn't complicated.

That $15 million number for ND is before the latest renegotiation. That was a 2005 number as well as an estimate because they don't make public. Most of the speculation I read is saying close to $25 million. So maybe ESPN paid more for 5 games and basketball, etc.
 

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