Non-Key Tweets

[jostar1]

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
To those foolishly arguing about the Big 12's GoR last night. I give you the Big 12's bylaws. pic.twitter.com/NKTwJ6pveI



Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
The key part in that segment is the withdrawing member will not get any payments but is still bound by the GoR.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
Notice here that the bylaws separate the GoR provision from the withholding of funds plus adds some more teeth... pic.twitter.com/OqLHol1yqT



Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
What this says is that if any school leaves the B12 before the GoR has expired not only do the rights remain but the members agree that

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
leaving would damage the Big 12 and the departing school would be forced to pay the conf damages (cont)

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
damages as defined as the $ they would have received for the remaining term of the GoR.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
This is the buyout & doesn't negate the GoR which is clearly still in effect... the last part of that is a killer.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
It says that all members agree that these provisions are not punitive.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
Also in the bylaws is a little ditty that says if any member is contacted by another conference they have to notify the conf of contact.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
Or guess what.... damages....

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
So in the Big 12 GoR we have terms that each member agreed to... consideration n the form of the bonus & ongoing compensation.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
The terms of the bylaws (which is a contract) are legal & each president of every Big 12 school has signed it.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
So the price tag of leaving the Big 12 is no tv rights for the term of the GoR + about $450 million.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
I'm going to be mean on this one. I'm going to be rude.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
If you think for one second the Big 12 GoR would ever be challenged you are an idiot.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
I said if you believe for one second that the Big 12 GoR would be challenged you are a total & complete IDIOT.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
Why because a GoR has a mountain of case history supporting it & in contract law if you signed it & its not illegal then its valid.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
Again a meeting of the minds occurred, legal terms were agreed to, the GoR & bylaws were signed & consideration was given. End of story.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
@NebGradDubDub Two years ago I spoke to the attorney who actually wrote the book on GoR used in most law schools. He has since passed away.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
@NebGradDubDub But he reviewed the Big12 GoR and the bylaws and he said no attorney would ever tell a client the Big 12 GoR could be

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
@NebGradDubDub successfully challenged.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
I'm sorry to hurt feelings and I don't mean to offend. But the very thought of the Big 12's GoR being challenged is batshit crazy.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
No school would take the risk. No conference would take the risk. The risk can't be justified.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 1h 1 hour ago
So the next time you hear someone say, or write on a message board or Twitter, that the Big 12 is vulnerable- call bullshit.

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 58m 58 minutes ago
(By the way the ACC GoR is modeled after the Big 12 GoR & you can expect similar language in the ACC bylaws).

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV · 1h1 hour ago
So produce just one attorney... just one who is willing to go to court to challenge it. You can't.

Doug ‏@NebGradDubDub · 10m10 minutes ago
@theDudeofWV here is an attorney from Phoenix Myth of the Big 12's Grant of rights http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...ge/myth-of-the-big-12s-grant-of-rights-010313 … via @FoxSports

Christopher Lambert @theDudeofWV · 14m 14 minutes ago
@NebGradDubDub @FOXSports I've read that...it's wrong.. Find a single attorney who would advise it could be successfully challenged.

 

[CallMeBruce]

He's a legal expert now, guys.

 

[Oxford Bob]

So, any school leaving the Big 12 will forfeit/pay the league about HALF a Billion $$$. And Maryland (remember the ACC modeled their GoR after the Big 12) paid less than 50 Million. I'm sure that one will hold up in court.

 

[nd73]

He's a legal expert now, guys.

I think he likes the term Legal Guru...

 

[bobbyinaz]

So, any school leaving the Big 12 will forfeit/pay the league about HALF a Billion $$$. And Maryland (remember the ACC modeled their GoR after the Big 12) paid less than 50 Million. I'm sure that one will hold up in court.

Maryland left before the GOR was put in place.

I still think the GOR can & will be challenged by someone. At the end of the day IMO all the GOR provides is a starting place for negotiations to get out. If someone truly wants out of the B12 or ACC because they believe there are "greener" pastures somewhere else the move will be made. The only question is how much does it costs them to get out?

 

[CL82]

I actually think that the language being used to suggest that the clause is not punative provides an argument to defeat it. The damages are not quantifiable "at this time" language may open the door to the argument that things have changed since that time and that the need for a GOR laspes once these damges become quantifiable.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I actually think that the language being used to suggest that the clause is not punative provides an argument to defeat it. The damages are not quantifiable "at this time" language may open the door to the argument that things have changed since that time and that the need for a GOR laspes once these damges become quantifiable.

My interpretation (not an attorney but have scoured business contracts for nearly 35 years) is that the damages part of the agreement potentially leaves the door open for a school to walk away freely. The B-12 (as a ten member conference) will have to replace the departing school almost immediately (without question before an agreement on departure fees can be reached). That school could then require the B-12 to demonstrate (prove) what actual damages the conference incurred by replacing school A with school B (if it is a case similar to the ACC losing Maryland and gaining Louisville, it would be difficult to argue that the conference lost anything).

 

[pj]

The key point is that contracts expire. B12 teams may not be ready to leave yet but if they announce the departure timed to coincide with the expiration of the GoR, there is nothing the conference can do. The B12 could not withhold payment for the TV rights.

 

[jostar1]

How did he come up with $450 million? The by-laws refer to the "Buyout Amount (as defined below)" but that part isn't included in what he attached to his tweet, and the second attachment states that the "financial consequences... cannot be measured or estimated with certainty at this time".

 

[pj]

My interpretation (not an attorney but have scoured business contracts for nearly 35 years) is that the damages part of the agreement potentially leaves the door open for a school to walk away freely. The B-12 (as a ten member conference) will have to replace the departing school almost immediately (without question before an agreement on departure fees can be reached). That school could then require the B-12 to demonstrate (prove) what actual damages the conference incurred by replacing school A with school B (if it is a case similar to the ACC losing Maryland and gaining Louisville, it would be difficult to argue that the conference lost anything).

It would be very risky for a school to leave in the hope that things would play out that way. Suppose Kansas went to the B1G with UConn in the hope things would play out that way; then Texas and Oklahoma, planning to leave, refuse to add a 10th team back; ESPN and Fox void the TV contract; that eliminates the GoR and greatly reduces the buyout; Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State jump to SEC or Pac or ACC/independent; and the rump of the conference has lost $22 mn per year forever, and sues Kansas for damages. It could be a huge damage award.

 

[jostar1]

It would be very risky for a school to leave in the hope that things would play out that way. Suppose Kansas went to the B1G with UConn in the hope things would play out that way; then ESPN and Fox void the TV contract, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State jump to SEC or Pac or ACC/independent, and the rump of the conference sues Kansas for damages. It could be a huge damage award.

One explanation is here:

In 2003, the Big East is raided for two of its name brand schools, and a regionally significant school. The Big East added some lesser brands, and their media partners did not reduce their ongoing media deal. 2010, the Big 12 lost 2 schools in Colorado and Nebraska, did not replace those schools, and the Big 12 lost a significant amount of content (1/6th) in football and basketball. The Big 12's media partners did not reduce the payout on existing contracts but actually negotiated for more money on an expiring one. 2011, Texas A&M and Missouri left, the Big 12 replaced them with less valuable TV properties in TCU and WVU, and neither ESPN or FOX required a reduction in the payout to the Big 12. 2012, Maryland leaves the ACC for the Big 10, ACC replaces them with a less valuable media property. Not a single word is mentioned about a reduced payout for the ACC.

Networks, and one specifically, won't reduce the amount they pay to the conferences because it would violate their fiduciary duties to the conferences. Because one network (ESPN) has a hand in every league's media deal (except new Big East if it even exists) it can't in good faith pay one league more for raiding one league, then reducing its payout to league that was raided.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...ge/myth-of-the-big-12s-grant-of-rights-010313

 

[Kolumbo]

What happens again if TX, KS, OK, and TECH split and the Big 12 dissolves due to depletion? Would Kansas State as a member of the AAC or MW get to sue those who left? There would be no more GOR since there would be no Big 12. GOR's are only words on paper, me thinks.

 

[Kolumbo]

One explanation is here:

In 2003, the Big East is raided for two of its name brand schools, and a regionally significant school. The Big East added some lesser brands, and their media partners did not reduce their ongoing media deal. 2010, the Big 12 lost 2 schools in Colorado and Nebraska, did not replace those schools, and the Big 12 lost a significant amount of content (1/6th) in football and basketball. The Big 12's media partners did not reduce the payout on existing contracts but actually negotiated for more money on an expiring one. 2011, Texas A&M and Missouri left, the Big 12 replaced them with less valuable TV properties in TCU and WVU, and neither ESPN or FOX required a reduction in the payout to the Big 12. 2012, Maryland leaves the ACC for the Big 10, ACC replaces them with a less valuable media property. Not a single word is mentioned about a reduced payout for the ACC.

Networks, and one specifically, won't reduce the amount they pay to the conferences because it would violate their fiduciary duties to the conferences. Because one network (ESPN) has a hand in every league's media deal (except new Big East if it even exists) it can't in good faith pay one league more for raiding one league, then reducing its payout to league that was raided.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...ge/myth-of-the-big-12s-grant-of-rights-010313

The Big East got raided to the point where espn now pays it, renamed the AAC, jack squat.

 

[CallMeBruce]

What happens again if TX, KS, OK, and TECH split and the Big 12 dissolves due to depletion? Would Kansas State as a member of the AAC or MW get to sue those who left? There would be no more GOR since there would be no Big 12. GOR's are only words on paper, me thinks.

More likely, the top 4-6 AAC/MWC/WCC schools (from us, Cincy, Memphis, SMU, UCF, ECU, CSU, BYU, Boise St.) get pulled into the Big 12. Much better branding, even without the marquee schools. A Big 12 featuring UConn, Cincy, WVU, UCF, SMU, Iowa State, K-State, OK State, Baylor, TCU, CSU, and BYU is more valuable than those schools called anything else.

 

[bobbyinaz]

More likely, the top 4-6 AAC/MWC/WCC schools (from us, Cincy, Memphis, SMU, UCF, ECU, CSU, BYU, Boise St.) get pulled into the Big 12. Much better branding, even without the marquee schools. A Big 12 featuring UConn, Cincy, WVU, UCF, SMU, Iowa State, K-State, OK State, Baylor, TCU, CSU, and BYU is more valuable than those schools called anything else.

While the chances of that 12 team conference coming together are virtually impossible the scariest part may be that the other 11 schools might prefer Houston to UConn.

Just another example of how CR has done nothing but screw us

 

[Kolumbo]

More likely, the top 4-6 AAC/MWC/WCC schools (from us, Cincy, Memphis, SMU, UCF, ECU, CSU, BYU, Boise St.) get pulled into the Big 12. Much better branding, even without the marquee schools. A Big 12 featuring UConn, Cincy, WVU, UCF, SMU, Iowa State, K-State, OK State, Baylor, TCU, CSU, and BYU is more valuable than those schools called anything else.

Nah. The Big 12 would ultimately lose its "P5" status so some if not all of the remaining Big 12 programs would find homes in other P4 conferences. Bringing up programs from C-USA didn't help the Big East and likely wouldn't help the Big 12.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Nah. The Big 12 would ultimately lose its "P5" status so some if not all of the remaining Big 12 programs would find homes in other P4 conferences. Bringing up programs from C-USA didn't help the Big East and likely wouldn't help the Big 12.

It's possible, but both the starting point and the pool you're drawing from are stronger in that case, and it's not like all of those schools have other options anyway. Baylor and TCU are both top-10 in RPI, K-State was #14, Boise was #19. I'd have a hard time seeing them taking the autobid from a conference with teams like that, and with a median RPI in the 30s somewhere.

 

[Kolumbo]

It's possible, but both the starting point and the pool you're drawing from are stronger in that case, and it's not like all of those schools have other options anyway. Baylor and TCU are both top-10 in RPI, K-State was #14, Boise was #19. I'd have a hard time seeing them taking the autobid from a conference with teams like that, and with a median RPI in the 30s somewhere.

But none of those programs are elite, and without at least one elite program, the conference is not a player. Those programs are certainly good enough to get recruited by one of the 4 remaining power conferences. I think if there is any movement at all from P5 to P5, the current 65 teams will eventually be split among 4 conferences.

 

[kyleslamb]

I'm amazed at how ventured this guy is. He has a source in the Big Ten, at the BTN, an attorney that 'wrote the book' on Grant of Rights agreements, several sources inside the Big 12. Pretty incredible for a blogger from West Virginia.

I also appreciate his conversations with all these attorneys have given him the assurance that he can speak for all attorneys out there as to whether a single one would advise on challenging the Grant of Rights -- scratch that, as he moved the goal post -- successfully challenge it rather than advise on challenging it.

 

[CallMeBruce]

But none of those programs are elite, and without at least one elite program, the conference is not a player. Those programs are certainly good enough to get recruited by one of the 4 remaining power conferences. I think if there is any movement at all from P5 to P5, the current 65 teams will eventually be split among 4 conferences.

How do you define elite? Top-10 doesn't qualify? TCU was #5 in RPI last year.

How about this: take the leftovers from that league, add UConn, Cincy, Memphis, UCF, SMU, BYU, Colorado State, and Boise State. That's a 14-team league, the same as the B1G and the ACC (for football). That league ranks higher than the B1G or ACC by both average and mean RPI in both football and basketball last year.

 

[Kolumbo]

How do you define elite? Top-10 doesn't qualify? TCU was #5 in RPI last year.

How about this: take the leftovers from that league, add UConn, Cincy, Memphis, UCF, SMU, BYU, Colorado State, and Boise State. That's a 14-team league, the same as the B1G and the ACC (for football). That league ranks higher than the B1G or ACC by both average and mean RPI in both football and basketball last year.

Texas, FSU, Ohio State, Alabama, USC...I don't consider TCU elite. That's just my perception anyway. Programs like Texas are elite even when they suck.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

It would be very risky for a school to leave in the hope that things would play out that way. Suppose Kansas went to the B1G with UConn in the hope things would play out that way; then Texas and Oklahoma, planning to leave, refuse to add a 10th team back; ESPN and Fox void the TV contract; that eliminates the GoR and greatly reduces the buyout; Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State jump to SEC or Pac or ACC/independent; and the rump of the conference has lost $22 mn per year forever, and sues Kansas for damages. It could be a huge damage award.

This is merely an opinion but I believe that it would be far more risky for the B-12 to drag their feet on replacing a departing school (in hopes of gaining some windfall in damages from that school) than to expedite the replacement. The lost revenues of not being able to satisfy ESPN, Fox or whatever network is paying them nine figures for the right to broadcast their games easily outweigh whatever they could gain from the departing school if they chose not to replace that school.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

So, any school leaving the Big 12 will forfeit/pay the league about HALF a Billion $$$. And Maryland (remember the ACC modeled their GoR after the Big 12) paid less than 50 Million. I'm sure that one will hold up in court.

I am no lawyer; but, I am 100% certain that buried in that 1/2 ton legal document there is a clause/loophole that would allow U Texas to walkway with a minimal pain, if any; because, I can't see the U Texas agreeing to anything that is not in their best interest and anyone can see that the XII may not be in U Texas' best interest over the long-term.

 

[pj]

This is merely an opinion but I believe that it would be far more risky for the B-12 to drag their feet on replacing a departing school (in hopes of gaining some windfall in damages from that school) than to expedite the replacement. The lost revenues of not being able to satisfy ESPN, Fox or whatever network is paying them nine figures for the right to broadcast their games easily outweigh whatever they could gain from the departing school if they chose not to replace that school.

Not for Texas or Oklahoma, maybe for Oklahoma State and a few others -- they could go to SEC, ACC/independent, or Pac and get a raise. They also have been talking to conferences and have a good idea what they could make on the open market. So for those valuable schools, the risk of letting the B12 fail is zero. It only frees themselves up to auction themselves off for more money.

The current B12 TV deal is voided if they don't maintain 10 members. If it is voided, the GoR expires and the buyout goes down. The remaining schools become de facto free agents.

The resistance to adding to 12 is partly driven by the unwillingness of Texas and Oklahoma and Kansas, who have options, to give the weak schools enough power to hem them in.

So their departure would leave maybe six schools who are harmed. They lose $22 mn per year. Who can they sue? Not Texas and Oklahoma -- once the GoR and the TV deal dissolved, they had no obligation to stay. It was Kansas's departure that led to the voiding of the TV deal and the loss of cash. Kansas would be sued and the liability would be potentially very large. (6 schools * $20 mn per year * N years).

The GoR is an "all for one, one for all" agreement. The first school to leave is the one that does all the damages, and would face all the liability.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Not for Texas or Oklahoma, maybe for Oklahoma State and a few others -- they could go to SEC, ACC/independent, or Pac and get a raise. They also have been talking to conferences and have a good idea what they could make on the open market. So for those valuable schools, the risk of letting the B12 fail is zero. It only frees themselves up to auction themselves off for more money.

The current B12 TV deal is voided if they don't maintain 10 members. If it is voided, the GoR expires and the buyout goes down. The remaining schools become de facto free agents.

The resistance to adding to 12 is partly driven by the unwillingness of Texas and Oklahoma and Kansas, who have options, to give the weak schools enough power to hem them in.

So their departure would leave maybe six schools who are harmed. They lose $22 mn per year. Who can they sue? Not Texas and Oklahoma -- once the GoR and the TV deal dissolved, they had no obligation to stay. It was Kansas's departure that led to the voiding of the TV deal and the loss of cash. Kansas would be sued and the liability would be potentially very large. (6 schools * $20 mn per year * N years).

The GoR is an "all for one, one for all" agreement. The first school to leave is the one that does all the damages, and would face all the liability.

The scenario that you are proposing, that no real effort will be made to continue the conference once the first school leaves, will pretty much make damages negligible as the remaining schools would then have demonstrated that there wasn't much worth holding onto. If the B-12 does not attempt to continue it won't hurt the school that departs, it will make it easier for them to leave without paying anything. Remaining in compliance with the TV contract is the B-12's responsibility, not the responsibility of any one member who is in the official process of departing the conference. Additionally, there is no way in hell that any judge would attempt to force a school (a state entity at that in the case of eight of the ten possible B-12 schools who would/could be the first to depart) to pay nine figures in damages to a conference that has no desire/makes no attempt to continue.

If someone does leave, the Longhorns and Sooners start looking for a landing spot and the remaining members will once again begin the dance they were involved with in 2010 (this time it will be AAC schools, not BE football members as potential dance partners).