No more high hedge?

[alphasigko]

I believe Adama's continuous "high hedging* contributed to his end of season exhaustion. Whaley had the energy to do it correctly, efficiently and successfully... Adama not so much.

 

[dennismenace]

Thanks to all for the in depth analysis of defensive man to man options. It would help if the TV game announcers would reveal some of this analysis (if they are aware of it). It gets into the mind of the coaches and gives the fans an idea of what to watch for, what is apparently working and what is not.
As usual, the BY is ahead of the curve whether at in-depth BB analysis or how to get dead animals out of your wall. Above dialogue greatly appreciated.

 

[Greathusky]

I truly hate the high hedge. I find myself yelling at the TV " Get back Sanogo. Get back!"

 

[McLovin]

Our games this vs HOF/elite coaches were: 2x vs Creighton, 3x vs Nova, MSU, and WVU.

We were a better team than Creighton, and we still haven't beat them...ever. We were clearly more talented this year and last.

We were better than MSU. We were better than WVU.

I think 'Nova was going to have our number 2/3 games no matter what, so I won't count them.

We also lost 5/6 games vs elite coaches the year before. And 3/4 the year before that. And 8/9 the year before that. I have Hurley at 3-19 vs HOF coaches

Is it a coincidence that last season we lost 4/4 games vs HOF coaches? Maybe, maybe not. I won't make the call for you. But I think it's pretty objective that 1) we lose close games, 2) we lose to HOF coaches even when our team is better, 3) we rarely lose games we're supposed to win. #3 is a good place to start, but we need changes to get to the next step.

IMO the way Hurley coaches rarely ends up with us punching above our weight class. We win more of these games... maybe not even most, but MORE if Hurley learns how to make adjustments on both ends of the floor.

You’re not wrong at all about this.

But in the non-Nova games last year we gave up 64, 56, 59 and 64 points in the losses.

Our team FG% in those games was 36, 39, 30 and 41 percent. Team FG% was 44% for the season.

Points to offense being more of a problem than the defense in those losses.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I truly hate the high hedge. I find myself yelling at the TV " Get back Sanogo. Get back!"

To be clear, it's effective when players who are not the center do it. It's even effective in spots when the center does it. We just use it with the 5 way, way too often.

What drives me mad is when a team with two bigs, like Creighton, uses it to pull the 5 out so the other big can score easily inside. That should be a flashing red light for Hurley that he can't pull the 5 from the paint. Meanwhile, we put Whaley outside, and the big who would come out on him in our defense, stays inside so Sanago is doubled and no guards have a path to the rim.

 

[gtcam]

Hurley was hard headed last year with his hard hedge and other things.

A few changes would have fixed that but Hurley was too rigid.

In others words, DH can be stubborn?
Wow- I was blasted by someone who said I was out of line (being polite) for suggested that DH is stubborn

Anyway - the hard hedge - if you have someone like Whaley it's fine but with someone like Adama - it's a path to 2 unwanted fouls per game and just not worth it

 

[husky429]

To be clear, it's effective when players who are not the center do it. It's even effective in spots when the center does it. We just use it with the 5 way, way too often.

What drives me mad is when a team with two bigs, like Creighton, uses it to pull the 5 out so the other big can score easily inside. That should be a flashing red light for Hurley that he can't pull the 5 from the paint. Meanwhile, we put Whaley outside, and the big who would come out on him in our defense, stays inside so Sanago is doubled and no guards have a path to the rim.

Should only be used on screens 1-4 except in certain matchups unless you've got someone like Whaley (maybe Johnson) who can pull it off at the 5.

 

[Chief00]

You can't deny that sanogo improved at it last year. And as a team it was an effective defense more often than not. Unfortunately Creighton seemed to exploit it with ease and put bad tape out there for opposing coaches to follow.

He may have gotten better at it but his coach seems perplexed why he was so spent at end of games?
Maybe it’s running suicide sprints every defensive possession from the paint to the 3 line and back?

 

[JustbrewitMan]

I can't wait to watch you all lose your minds when Sanogo and Clingan do a hard hedge during the open practice/scrimmage next fall.

I may have some connections to DC so I am going to work hard to try to make it happen...even just for the Boneyard trolling value.

 

[Chief00]

You’re not wrong at all about this.

But in the non-Nova games last year we gave up 64, 56, 59 and 64 points in the losses.

Our team FG% in those games was 36, 39, 30 and 41 percent. Team FG% was 44% for the season.

Points to offense being more of a problem than the defense in those losses.

You are missing the boat how defense and offense are connected. You can have your star burn unnecessary energy on the high hedge and get into foul trouble. That means he misses bunnies on the offensive end and sits on the bench.
As far as giving up x amount of points, you need to look at the pace you play at on both ends. You can give up a less than average amount of points and play poor defense, if you run the shoot click down every possession on offense.
Also, how effective would our defense be without the disasterous high hedge? Let’s face it, we had athletes not scorers, so one would expect to have relative good defense.

 

[mauconnfan]

The hedge is required if only to assure they are stopping the momentum of a guard with a step or 2 ready to cut the corner. Whaley was tremendous at it, Jake was really good at it back in the day. No matter who at times if your co-defender is beat you need to hedge, but there better be more help soon thereafter anyway. Sanogo actually wasn't bad at all but held on too long quite often. He actually has improved tremendously with his footwork and quickness but we don't need him to be staying out there as long as he did too often. Donovan will just need to work on the quick move off his guy in anticipation to stop the momentum but keep within arms length or so in order to get back if he heads to the hoop. Of course some zone for the rookie at times will help as well (have i said that before?) LOL

 

[HuskyHawk]

If you want to see it run to perfection, look at Al Horford yesterday.

 

[Dogdeacon]

If you want to see it run to perfection, look at Al Horford yesterday.

That is great D by Horford but that's a straight double team no one came to screen

 

[HuskyHawk]

That is great D by Horford but that's a straight double team no one came to screen

Yeah, you're right.

 

[gsmooth]

If you want to see it run to perfection, look at Al Horford yesterday.

this is a little of what I wanted UConn to do to Teddy Allen when he was getting hot only to throw off his rythmn and make him think more. It was obvious when he was starting his 1x1 moves that he wasn't looking to pass.

 

[Rico444]

I guess I'm in the minority in not minding the high hedge if you have a big that can play it well. Our 2 pt defense was really good last year, and if we don't hedge then we basically have to choose to either allow guard penetration or go under screens and allow open 3s. I don't expect Clingan to play the high hedge since it's not his strength, but at 7'2" he should be able to block or affect a bunch of shots in the paint so I'm not too concerned there.

 

[husky429]

If you want to see it run to perfection, look at Al Horford yesterday.

This is a straight double-team, not a high-hedge.

 

[McLovin]

You are missing the boat how defense and offense are connected. You can have your star burn unnecessary energy on the high hedge and get into foul trouble. That means he misses bunnies on the offensive end and sits on the bench.
As far as giving up x amount of points, you need to look at the pace you play at on both ends. You can give up a less than average amount of points and play poor defense, if you run the shoot click down every possession on offense.
Also, how effective would our defense be without the disasterous high hedge? Let’s face it, we had athletes not scorers, so one would expect to have relative good defense.

@auror did a good job (below) looking into this. In 3 of the 4 of those games above, the defense points per possession was top 25 defense efficiency. Any other theories you'd like to suggest?

But to go further: 0.91, 0.88, 0.92, 1.01 ppp against in the non-Nova elite coach games. That's really good. Doesn't look like those coaches really took advantage of our defense to me. That's top 15 defensive efficiency on raw average.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This is a straight double-team, not a high-hedge.

Yes, others noted and I agreed. My mistake. No screen.

 

[husky429]

Yes, others noted and I agreed. My mistake. No screen.

It is the same idea though, so you're not far off. And Al IS elite defending ball screens in a variety of ways. It's the reason why his 6,000 year old behind is still making millions in the league.

 

[Chief00]

@auror did a good job (below) looking into this. In 3 of the 4 of those games above, the defense points per possession was top 25 defense efficiency. Any other theories you'd like to suggest?

You totally miss my point. I was not talking defensive efficiency but pace. Pace isn’t efficiency per possession, but number of possession. It seems like you respond some can answer before reading and comprehending Chief’s post.
You are also arguing against the guy you think your defending. Danny was the one who said Adama was spent the end of games, missing easy shots. This (High Hedge) is the most logical and reasonable explanation why.

 

[Chief00]

The hedge is required if only to assure they are stopping the momentum of a guard with a step or 2 ready to cut the corner. Whaley was tremendous at it, Jake was really good at it back in the day. No matter who at times if your co-defender is beat you need to hedge, but there better be more help soon thereafter anyway. Sanogo actually wasn't bad at all but held on too long quite often. He actually has improved tremendously with his footwork and quickness but we don't need him to be staying out there as long as he did too often. Donovan will just need to work on the quick move off his guy in anticipation to stop the momentum but keep within arms length or so in order to get back if he heads to the hoop. Of course some zone for the rookie at times will help as well (have i said that before?) LOL

If Hurley consistently puts Donovan out on the high hedge, he should see if Wagner has an opening again. He’s not going to make it at this level stubbornly holding on to such tactics.

 

[ucp990411]

If you want to see it run to perfection, look at Al Horford yesterday.

Incredibly bad defense by Durant on the final possession. Kids are taught in middle school to know where your nan is at all times

 

[mauconnfan]

Incredibly bad defense by Durant on the final possession. Kids are taught in middle school to know where your nan is at all times

Yep and Kyrie as well. Matador D with his middle finger!