NIL Hits The WNBA

[Sifaka]

I believe that if the WNBA tries to stop this that the players will have a nice lawsuit on the horizon and in the end that the W will end up losing.

Unless the contract between the WNBA and the players prohibits earnings from other sources, such as testimonials, sponsors ads, play for other leagues in the W off season, etc., there is not anything the W can do to legally impede this earning stream for the LV players.

Someone expressed a concern about “optics”. Hah! What are the optics for a league that is so poor at marketing its product that it cannot afford to pay its employees a decent wage?

Oh! those women. They want to earn enough to support a family without having to live in hotels in Russia or Turkey. The nerve!

Optics. Indeed.

 

[CL82]

Bad news for the Sun. No way Uncasville is going to pony up 1.2 million in "sponsorships" to be competative with large market franchises.

Is the casino ownership separate from the team ownership? If so then they could pay the team to walk around the mall and talk to people periodically.

 

[CL82]

Endorsement deals for individual players are one thing; this is money given to every player on the team for what essentially sounds like a no-show job (the LVCVA CEO stated: "The offer is really simple. We want you to just play.")

I've often thought the same thing regarding college NIL. The easiest for the current "wild West" situation is to make players accepting NIL from a booster of the team that they play for a disqualifying event. Do you want to have a deal with Nike, chipotle, Kool-Aid, it's all good. Do you want to have a deal from Lenny's car wash where Lenny is a booster of the team, not so good. (for what it's worth that approach was at the suggestion of huskyhawk on the men's board. But it makes sense to me.

To your point, teams like Miami have had boosters pay a flat rate for every offensive lineman. As you point out that's a payment for playing rather than NIL.

I wasn't aware of the WNBA CBA agreement that you quoted. The compensation in excess of services rendered language sure seems applicable.

 

[mymustang]

Is the casino ownership separate from the team ownership? If so then they could pay the team to walk around the mall and talk to people periodically.

Good question. I have never paid for a ticket to a Sun game including the CC game.

 

[Sifaka]

1.
Although the understanding at issue may not violate the specific language of this provision it may violate the spirit of the provision. Will be interesting.

2. It shall constitute a violation of Section 1(a) above for a Team (or Team Affiliate) to enter into an agreement or understanding with any sponsor or business partner or third party under which such sponsor, business partner or third party pays or agrees to pay compensation for basketball services (even if such compensation is ostensibly designated as being for non-basketball services) to a player under Contract to the Team. Such an agreement with a sponsor or business partner or third party may be inferred where: (i) such compensation from the sponsor or business partner or third party is substantially in excess of the fair market value of any services to be rendered by the player for such sponsor or business partner or third party; and (ii) the Compensation in the Player Contract between the player and the Team is substantially below the fair market value of such Contract.

1. In contract law, words matter. If the words are adhered to, subjective notions of he spirit tend not to prevail in court.

2. Compensation for welcoming visitors does not constitute payment of compensation for basketball services. As to your bolded portion, how might anyone deem such payment to be substantially in excess of fair market value? Expiring minds want to know.

 

[Cuango]

The guy that presented the deal specifically mentioned them threepeating. It seems clear that the money is for basketball services. If they were not playing basketball for the Aces they would not be offered this money.

 

[BBallF]

I'm not questioning the rest of your points, but disagree with the way you are describing this as taxpayers money. It is not taken from income, sales or property tax. If you view money that comes from someone that is a taxpayer as taxpayer money, then if I but a big gulp at the local 7 Eleven and the owner ultimately spends it, he is spending taxpayer money. Looking at it that way the only money that isn't tax payer money is money coming from someone that doesn't pay taxes.

This is a local tax on discretionary spending, mostly applied to out of town visitors. I agree it could be an issue from an unfair competitive advantage standpoint. I would compare this more to a state paying a celebrity to do a commercial to promote a state lottery.

There are real issues here, but not because of where the money comes from., rather because of the potentially unfair competitive advantage, which is a broad issue pertaining to many things. The league obviously had a problem with chartered flights if wealthy team owners gave their team a competitive advantage over others that couldn't afford it. The same is true but not mentioned as often regarding training facilities.

The Aces built a state of the art training facility, and many teams don't even have a dedicated practice facility. Seattle has done the same this year. I presume the unfair competitive advantage argument could come up there as well. Some teams have the advantage of owners who can indirectly compensate players with advantages others teams can't. It will be interesting how this all plays out.

Any tax revenue represents taxpayer funds, public funds, and is a payment of diverted taxpayer public revenue to the team creating an ultra above salary cap payment. If I send you $100 of sales tax revenue through a public agency or private agency, it's still taxpayer monies and is taxable income to the recipient. It won't stand up.

 

[BBallF]

1. In contract law, words matter. If the words are adhered to, subjective notions of he spirit tend not to prevail in court.

2. Compensation for welcoming visitors does not constitute payment of compensation for basketball services. As to your bolded portion, how might anyone deem such payment to be substantially in excess of fair market value? Expiring minds want to know.

What are they getting paid for if not basketball services? It's a subterfuge at best. The real problem in my mind is that it is public taxpayer revenue. How much do they get per hour to welcome visitors? $5000.00? $10,000.00?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

What are they getting paid for if not basketball services? It's a subterfuge at best. The real problem in my mind is that it is public taxpayer revenue. How much do they get per hour to welcome visitors? $5000.00? $10,000.00?

I didn't look terribly hard, but I couldn't find anything where they did anything for anyone at the airport or any other venue. Maybe it's something they're going to be doing?

 

[MSGRET]

That's not a player. Big difference. And if they want to support the team...negotiate that logo on the jersey. Just do not pay individual players. You could say well Clark just struck a huge deal with Nike (?). Difference is...not the entire team and her deal stands no matter what team she plays for.

That doesn't help the players, it helps the teams. The WNBA has been around since 1997 and they still haven't grown. The players still get measly pay and benefits, it's not the players fault, it's the league.

 

[MSGRET]

I didn't look terribly hard, but I couldn't find anything where they did anything for anyone at the airport or any other venue. Maybe it's something they're going to be doing?

What do you mean by "anything at the airport or any other venue"? Community bulletin boards announcements are taped and played on video screens throughout the airport as well as the convention center.

 

[MSGRET]

Is the casino ownership separate from the team ownership? If so then they could pay the team to walk around the mall and talk to people periodically.

The team is owned by Mark Davis, which they pay to play in Michelob Arena in the Mandalay Bay Casino owned by MGM Resorts. Both are separate from each other as well as separate from the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority.

 

[trisailin]

That doesn't help the players, it helps the teams. The WNBA has been around since 1997 and they still haven't grown. The players still get measly pay and benefits, it's not the players fault, it's the league.

I keep reading how the league management is incompetent. So my challenge to any of you: Start your own league and do better.
I can assure you it is WAY tougher than you make it out to be.

What exactly would YOU do to increase revenue across the entire league.

And for those who think these payments in LVA will force the other owners to pony up more funds, I submit that several would just fold the franchise. So much for expansion.

 

[MSGRET]

I keep reading how the league management is incompetent. So my challenge to any of you: Start your own league and do better.
I can assure you it is WAY tougher than you make it out to be.

What exactly would YOU do to increase revenue across the entire league.

And for those who think these payments in LVA will force the other owners to pony up more funds, I submit that several would just fold the franchise. So much for expansion.

Maybe they need to kind of force the owners to meet minimum guidelines across the board, like player facilities, home court standards. Restricting players from signing contracts outside of league play is not good for business and has a good chance of losing in court, no matter what their bylaws say.

 

[Cuango]

The problem with this is not that it’s bad for the Aces to get some swag but rather that it is going to create a competitive advantage for the franchise! There is no way other teams are going to be able to match this!

 

[MSGRET]

The problem with this is not that it’s bad for the Aces to get some swag but rather that it is going to create a competitive advantage for the franchise! There is no way other teams are going to be able to match this!

The problem is that the franchise has nothing to do with the contract or its negotiation of the contract. So as far as I'm concerned the league has no way to stop it from happening, unless they want to have a heck of a lawsuit to worry about and some very bad publicity.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

What do you mean by "anything at the airport or any other venue"? Community bulletin boards announcements are taped and played on video screens throughout the airport as well as the convention center.

I would think these ads could be seen on the internet somewhere as I assume they are geared towards visitors or potential visitors.. Maybe not.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

That doesn't help the players, it helps the teams. The WNBA has been around since 1997 and they still haven't grown. The players still get measly pay and benefits, it's not the players fault, it's the league.

I don't disagree with this. But, the league has a stake here. So if it takes a court to figure it out so be it.

 

[MSGRET]

I would think these ads could be seen on the internet somewhere as I assume they are geared towards visitors or potential visitors.. Maybe not.

You are incorrect, the LVCVA has the feeds and uses them at the Airport, the Las Vegas Convention center and has a channel in the hotels in town. They did have one during last years final with Wilson and Plum, but that might have been a local only commercial.

 

[MSGRET]

Exactly, which is why the WNBA has opened an investigation and will take a hard look at this. This could open the door for other creative ways to circumvent the salary cap. Remember the Aces were investigated last year for attempting to make under-the-table payments to free agents. Regarding this arrangement, the Aces have said "we know nothing,"

Endorsement deals for individual players are one thing; this is money given to every player on the team for what essentially sounds like a no-show job (the LVCVA CEO stated: "The offer is really simple. We want you to just play.")

The CBA has provisions that aim to prevent circumvention of the salary cap. The provision cited (below) would be most relevant. Although the understanding at issue may not violate the specific language of this provision it may violate the spirit of the provision. Will be interesting.

It shall constitute a violation of Section 1(a) above for a Team (or Team Affiliate) to enter into an agreement or understanding with any sponsor or business partner or third party under which such sponsor, business partner or third party pays or agrees to pay compensation for basketball services (even if such compensation is ostensibly designated as being for non-basketball services) to a player under Contract to the Team. Such an agreement with a sponsor or business partner or third party may be inferred where: (i) such compensation from the sponsor or business partner or third party is substantially in excess of the fair market value of any services to be rendered by the player for such sponsor or business partner or third party; and (ii) the Compensation in the Player Contract between the player and the Team is substantially below the fair market value of such Contract.

This is Vegas, where dealers and even cocktail servers can make more than $100K a year when you include the tips. So who is going to be the arbitrator on what is a fair market value on a contract from an organization that spends over a $100M in advertising a year? 1.2M is peanuts and most likely brings in more than that amount in high rollers that come to watch the Ace vs New York, L.A. and others. So far this season 15 of the 20 home games are already sold out with the chance of all of them ending up at the end to being sold out. They have already broken the league record with the 15, they are the second hottest team in Vegas only behind the Golden Knights.

 

[CL82]

The team is owned by Mark Davis, which they pay to play in Michelob Arena in the Mandalay Bay Casino owned by MGM Resorts. Both are separate from each other as well as separate from the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority.

I meant the Sun.

 

[MSGRET]

I meant the Sun.

Sorry, thought you were talking about the Aces. That is a very good question on the Sun.

 

[MSGRET]

See you in court. I think the deciding issue will be to what extent it impacts the WNBA's internal workings. And I know the title of the thread mentions NIL, but this isn't that since these players are actually employees, unlike student athletes. Should be interesting what is decided.

Yes the players are actually employees of the WNBA Aces, who are being paid by a non WNBA entity for non WNBA services. The club had no dealings with this or knowledge until after the announcement.

 

[uconnfan68]

Maybe they need to kind of force the owners to meet minimum guidelines across the board, like player facilities, home court standards. Restricting players from signing contracts outside of league play is not good for business and has a good chance of losing in court, no matter what their bylaws say.

Sounds like the WNBA will go bankrupt much sooner than expected.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

The problem is that the franchise has nothing to do with the contract or its negotiation of the contract. So as far as I'm concerned the league has no way to stop it from happening, unless they want to have a heck of a lawsuit to worry about and some very bad publicity.

I disagree that the franchise has nothing to do with the contract. They may even be okay with it because they benefit. You stated that these players were celebrities. Their celebrity is tied to the Championships won by the ACES...otherwise, save for a couple their marketing value plummets. And this parasitic relationship is easily identified by the fact that the 100k was offered to every player...even those who have been a part of the team for less than 2 weeks. The whole NIL argument is that schools were profiting off the name, image and likeness of players. Sounds to me as if this is reverse NIL. Players, even brand new ones, are profiting off the organization's success.

You said you saw digital ads by Plum and Wilson. And let's assume, there are others, but certainly not all of them. So how does everyone get paid and they haven't lifted a finger? Answer, because you are employed by The ACES. And why in this video does he explicitly say that all you have to do is ....keep winning. Who has to keep winning? The ACES. What happens to the player payments if the ACES start tanking? Sounds to me like...the money goes too. If that's the case, seems to me that the money is for on court (team) performance not because of some marketing done by a handful of players and extended to players who might get a minute or two of playing time...but the same pay?

I saw a Target advert with Plum and Wilson. Private company versus tax funded Tourism group. Funding through taxes on tourism...is public money. A private company can't generate funds through a tax on lodging. I'm sure Target didn't pay every ACES player 100k. Why would they when most of the players wouldn't even be recognized in or out of uniform? I also noticed, and this is how it should be done, neither adorned any ACES or league logos or apparel, not even their colors. You think Fair or Martin could pull this off? What are the players wearing in LVCC marketing? Any hint in this marketing of the ACES or even the league isn't consistent with them have nothing to do with the contract.

This will probably end up in a court...and it should. But don't be surprised if it's other teams suing the ACES or LVCC.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Maybe they need to kind of force the owners to meet minimum guidelines across the board, like player facilities, home court standards. Restricting players from signing contracts outside of league play is not good for business and has a good chance of losing in court, no matter what their bylaws say.

These are great ideas. I also think they should plot out a 10 year course to raise the salary cap and place owners on notice. I think all companies have some guidelines that impact outside employment if not behavior or associations. I mean a teacher can't be hosting on an adult website even after school. I had restrictions when I was in the military and as a civilian government employee.

 

[MSGRET]

I disagree that the franchise has nothing to do with the contract. They may even be okay with it because they benefit. You stated that these players were celebrities. Their celebrity is tied to the Championships won by the ACES...otherwise, save for a couple their marketing value plummets. And this parasitic relationship is easily identified by the fact that the 100k was offered to every player...even those who have been a part of the team for less than 2 weeks. The whole NIL argument is that schools were profiting off the name, image and likeness of players. Sounds to me as if this is reverse NIL. Players, even brand new ones, are profiting off the organization's success.

You said you saw digital ads by Plum and Wilson. And let's assume, there are others, but certainly not all of them. So how does everyone get paid and they haven't lifted a finger? Answer, because you are employed by The ACES. And why in this video does he explicitly say that all you have to do is ....keep winning. Who has to keep winning? The ACES. What happens to the player payments if the ACES start tanking? Sounds to me like...the money goes too. If that's the case, seems to me that the money is for on court (team) performance not because of some marketing done by a handful of players and extended to players who might get a minute or two of playing time...but the same pay?

I saw a Target advert with Plum and Wilson. Private company versus tax funded Tourism group. Funding through taxes on tourism...is public money. A private company can't generate funds through a tax on lodging. I'm sure Target didn't pay every ACES player 100k. Why would they when most of the players wouldn't even be recognized in or out of uniform? I also noticed, and this is how it should be done, neither adorned any ACES or league logos or apparel, not even their colors. You think Fair or Martin could pull this off? What are the players wearing in LVCC marketing? Any hint in this marketing of the ACES or even the league isn't consistent with them have nothing to do with the contract.

This will probably end up in a court...and it should. But don't be surprised if it's other teams suing the ACES or LVCC.

They can sue all they want, a business has a right to contract whoever they wish, if it happens to be the Aces and that business is separated from the team, then it should be legal. The LVCVA mission is to bring in conventions and tourism, if that is accomplished by using the Aces then they are meeting their mandate. On the wearing of uniforms, if that is required by one team then it should be required by all teams. You see many players wearing uniforms in their commercials so why is it okay to ban one team and let the others do it. On your other questions I would have to see what their contract says, something that I bet the WNBA will see. I willing to bet that knowing what the LVCVA does and on the amount of advertising that they do, their contracts is most likely within line of WNBA guidelines.

 

[MSGRET]

These are great ideas. I also think they should plot out a 10 year course to raise the salary cap and place owners on notice. I think all companies have some guidelines that impact outside employment if not behavior or associations. I mean a teacher can't be hosting on an adult website even after school. I had restrictions when I was in the military and as a civilian government employee.

They haven't done it for almost 30 years, what's going to make them do it now. Actually I believe that this is going to force the WNBA to get off their rear ends and actually start being more like a professional league then like a Div two basketball conference.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

They can sue all they want, a business has a right to contract whoever they wish, if it happens to be the Aces and that business is separated from the team, then it should be legal. The LVCVA mission is to bring in conventions and tourism, if that is accomplished by using the Aces then they are meeting their mandate. On the wearing of uniforms, if that is required by one team then it should be required by all teams. You see many players wearing uniforms in their commercials so why is it okay to ban one team and let the others do it. On your other questions I would have to see what their contract says, something that I bet the WNBA will see. I willing to bet that knowing what the LVCVA does and on the amount of advertising that they do, their contracts is most likely within line of WNBA guidelines.

Yea...I don't profess to know all the details, but these are things I hear in these types of negotiations. Lot of moving parts here and a lot of nuances at the pro and college level. Money is involved so I would be shocked if this didn't require an arbitrator of some type.

 

[packwrap]

What are they getting paid for if not basketball services? It's a subterfuge at best. The real problem in my mind is that it is public taxpayer revenue. How much do they get per hour to welcome visitors? $5000.00? $10,000.00?

This has been happening for years. US Postal service sponsoring Lance Armstrong, every milk mustache, US Navy with David Robinson and Roger Staubach, athletes supporting the COVID shot, get out the vote ads etc.

Once taxpayer money is allocated to an organization's budget, the responsible marketing director can use it largely as they wish to achieve their goals.

As long as this is not a case of the owner giving extra money to players via the tourism authority it will pass muster. To some other comments: nothing stops Nike from signing a deal with each player; just because sponsor chooses to pay all players, instead of just one does not make it a violation.

This is largely just the WNBA suddenly having to deal with the league being popular enough to attract sponsorship much higher than current salary levels.