New top 25 women in WCBB list

[Dognusty]

I'm with you on both Czinano and Cooke. Czinano has a record of accomplishment, not just potential. She belongs higher, probably right next to Morrow around #10.

I like Zia, but she's never been a star at SC, and reaching for her to get a second SC player on the list underscores what we all discussed on another thread: if SC lost its best player, they'd fall very far down the rankings even running a roster 13 deep. I'd worry they wouldn't even make the sweet 16. We lose Paige (and then Ice) and we're still competitive for the final four. I'm not saying SC isn't a great team -- they are. But they depend much more on their best player than we do.

Here we go again buddy. I whole heartily disagree. SC both times show they were a more complete team last year and bring back all of that except one player. Would they be as good without Boston maybe not but I don't think they would drop ton16th best team. They would most likely be right were UConn is right now.

 

[Bone Dog]

Here we go again buddy. I whole heartily disagree. SC both times show they were a more complete team last year and bring back all of that except one player. Would they be as good without Boston maybe not but I don't think they would drop ton16th best team. They would most likely be right were UConn is right now.

Fair enough, as long as your whole heart is in it. There’s room for differing assessments of this hypothetical. Kamilla could be effective as a starting center. She was at Syracuse.

 

[bballnut90]

I can't believe anyone takes them seriously enough to debate them. There's dozens of them.

That's the whole fun of coming to sites like The Boneyard and talking women's basketball with other knowledgable fans.

 

[visitingcock]

I'm with you on both Czinano and Cooke. Czinano has a record of accomplishment, not just potential. She belongs higher, probably right next to Morrow around #10.

I like Zia, but she's never been a star at SC, and reaching for her to get a second SC player on the list underscores what we all discussed on another thread: if SC lost its best player, they'd fall very far down the rankings even running a roster 13 deep. I'd worry they wouldn't even make the sweet 16. We lose Paige (and McDonald's AA and 2022-2023 WCBB Ice) and we're still competitive for the final four. I'm not saying SC isn't a great team -- they are. But they depend much more on their best player than we do.

You could be right but:

1. Without Boston, SCar would still have 8 McDonald All Americans -as many as Stanford and one more than UConn. Two more than UConn without Paige ( See McDonald's AA and 2022-2023 WCBB)

2. Dawn has taken her teams to or beyond the Sweet 16 nine out of the last ten tournaments - of course, not including her “ banner year. She has the coaching ability to lead her teams

Boston’s greatness cannot be denied. However, without her SCar still has highly talented bigs in Cardosa , Amihere, Feagan and freshman Watkins, not to mention Saxton. I don’t think UConn can match that as far as talent in the bigs. Stanford? Yeah, okay.

Without Boston, we might not make the final four or even elite .eight. But sweet 16? You could be right but it would be shocking. If we lost her right before the tournament, I guess it could happen, if we lost her now - with a full season to adjust - your theory is highly unlikely. But, I never say “never.”

 

[Bald Husky]

Azzi Fudd could be the best shooter in America. Why would we hamper her with full time PG duties, meaning she would have to think on the court about the other players, and finding ways to set them up. I don't want her to think about nothing except getting open and having the room to look for her shot. Of course, she will at times play the point, but as the starter? I think she did well with Paige out there, and when things didn't go our way, Paige took over. But with that, we become a one-dimensional team. With Nika at the point, Azzi is free to think shooting, as is also the casse for Caroline and Lou. The latter two may be great shooters also, but not in the same category as Azzi. Those three girls are the ones we will count on, and we need them, especially Azzi, to be tuned in to what we need them to do. Score. Let Nika, and hopefully Ines, worry about setting up plays, and playing PG defense. My point is, Azzi can be a great PG, but I would prefer her to be a great scorer.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Agree with the statement about giving SC 2 players underscores what the list actually values, but I disagree about SC not being a top 10-15 team without Boston. She’s vital on both ends but I think they’d still be a top 5 team without her considering they have tons of depth inside with Cardoso, Amihere, Saxton, Watkins and Feagin who are all extremely long and athletic and they still have elite defense and a top tier coach. Scoring would still be extremely difficult for opposing teams.

I definitely think they would still be a top 5 team, but I think they would have to be more defensively focused in their strategy. They have the Bigs, but none of them have even come close to being a Boston on the offensive end. It's a cliche, but defense definitely travels.

 

[bballnut90]

I definitely think they would still be a top 5 team, but I think they would have to be more defensively focused in their strategy. They have the Bigs, but none of them have even come close to being a Boston on the offensive end. It's a cliche, but defense definitely travels.

It would definitely be a massive downgrade but I think they’d hold up fine with Feagin/Cardoso as good offensive players. Saxton is solid on both ends too, but none of them compare to Boston.

I think ultimately their perimeter play would make or break SC though. If Cooke could develop into a more efficient scorer and if Beale hits more shots I think SC could still compete with the best of the best. Even without Boston I’d have a hard time thinking Iowa or Tennessee beats SC. At worst it’s a low scoring defensive battle that probably goes to the wire.

 

[Bone Dog]

You could be right but:

1. Without Boston, SCar would still have 8 McDonald All Americans -as many as Stanford and one more than UConn. Two more than UConn without Paige ( See McDonald's AA and 2022-2023 WCBB)

2. Dawn has taken her teams to or beyond the Sweet 16 nine out of the last ten tournaments - of course, not including her “ banner year. She has the coaching ability to lead her teams

Boston’s greatness cannot be denied. However, without her SCar still has highly talented bigs in Cardosa , Amihere, Feagan and freshman Watkins, not to mention Saxton. I don’t think UConn can match that as far as talent in the bigs. Stanford? Yeah, okay.

Without Boston, we might not make the final four or even elite .eight. But sweet 16? You could be right but it would be shocking. If we lost her right before the tournament, I guess it could happen, if we lost her now - with a full season to adjust - your theory is highly unlikely. But, I never say “never.”

I could definitely be wrong, no doubt -- and thanks for your generous reply, @visitingcock . So much "refuting" happens here, but disagreement doesn't have to take that form, and I appreciate your sense of this. I don't think I'm wrong that Boston individually means more to SC than Paige does to UConn. This may just be the difference between a post and a guard.

Even that is peculiar and needs a little explaining, since I think Paige is clearly a lynchpin player. She's more of an enabler than Boston, especially on offense. Everyone is made better because of her presence. There have also been times when everyone is made 'worse' by Paige's presence, i.e. when they succumb to Paige Watching. This tended to happen early in the season, and by the end of March, she'd built a unit out of her teammates.

Anyway, that's not exactly Boston's role on SC. She's more of 'the Rock' on which the rest of the team must rely, defensively especially, but also offensively. Take her out of the equation, and I think the rest of the team is reduced to playing more individual D than they can really manage, and the O will suffer as a result too. But you are right, Dawn has put together several stacked recruiting classes. I'm not as enamored of HS AA awards as perhaps I should be, because there can be disappointments there. But in the long run, I think that talent will express itself. Which lends itself to a thought experiment, the very one we've been conducting for UConn this past year. It goes like this:

If you lose Bueckers/Boston mid season, can the team recover? Can the rest of the talent find itself and make an FF-ready team? We managed it last year, though largely because Paige came back just before the tournament. Could SC have done that last season? Without Boston in January through mid February, what could they have accomplished last year? Certainly not the juggernaut season they put together with her. Would the guard play have been up to it -- Cooke Henny, Beal? And the frontcourt -- Cardoso Amihere Saxton? Could they have held it together in that central stretch, only lost a few extra games? Who would have stepped up to lead them?

Henny would have been the primary candidate, in my view, and I like her a lot. But I don't really see her in that role. She had a tremendous game in the NC, but that was so dependent on the post players dominating that I don't think it could have been replicated otherwise. On UConn, it was Evina initially, but then Christyn Azzi and Caroline took over the task. Is there an Evina on SC? A "Mama" E? That's who I don't see absent Boston.

Now flash forward to this season -- we lose Paige before the season starts, which means we don't have to face the disarray of a mid-season reconfiguring of the team. Everyone is prepared to play their roles from the start. On this board, there's lots of optimism (and some muted optimism) that we can make another FF run. But there's also no hope or expectation that Paige will make a grand re-entrance to elevate everyone, which can feel almost claustrophobic. These 10 are who we are, that's it. Now, I suspect that with all those HS AAs, SC would be in a better position given a whole season to adjust. But I'm not sure all the parts exist to build quite as good a team without Boston for the whole season. Try to imagine a FF, or even EE team for SC without Boston and your most promising freshman guard. I know SC fans can do it, just as we do it here. Who would take them down early in March, especially given that they wouldn't be a #1 seed? I'm guessing ND or Louisville or Stanford or even Indiana could pose insuperable hurdles. Not to mention UConn itself. We had a close call against UCF last season. That's the sort thing I'm thinking if.

So yes, I may have overstated the case when I said "I'd worry they wouldn't even make the Sweet Sixteen." But it's only a worry wrapped in a hypothetical, coated in pessimism sauce.

 

[visitingcock]

I could definitely be wrong, no doubt -- and thanks for your generous reply, @visitingcock . So much "refuting" happens here, but disagreement doesn't have to take that form, and I appreciate your sense of this. I don't think I'm wrong that Boston individually means more to SC than Paige does to UConn. This may just be the difference between a post and a guard.

Even that is peculiar and needs a little explaining, since I think Paige is clearly a lynchpin player. She's more of an enabler than Boston, especially on offense. Everyone is made better because of her presence. There have also been times when everyone is made 'worse' by Paige's presence, i.e. when they succumb to Paige Watching. This tended to happen early in the season, and by the end of March, she'd built a unit out of her teammates.

Anyway, that's not exactly Boston's role on SC. She's more of 'the Rock' on which the rest of the team must rely, defensively especially, but also offensively. Take her out of the equation, and I think the rest of the team is reduced to playing more individual D than they can really manage, and the O will suffer as a result too. But you are right, Dawn has put together several stacked recruiting classes. I'm not as enamored of HS AA awards as perhaps I should be, because there can be disappointments there. But in the long run, I think that talent will express itself. Which lends itself to a thought experiment, the very one we've been conducting for UConn this past year. It goes like this:

If you lose Bueckers/Boston mid season, can the team recover? Can the rest of the talent find itself and make an FF-ready team? We managed it last year, though largely because Paige came back just before the tournament. Could SC have done that last season? Without Boston in January through mid February, what could they have accomplished last year? Certainly not the juggernaut season they put together with her. Would the guard play have been up to it -- Cooke Henny, Beal? And the frontcourt -- Cardoso Amihere Saxton? Could they have held it together in that central stretch, only lost a few extra games? Who would have stepped up to lead them?

Henny would have been the primary candidate, in my view, and I like her a lot. But I don't really see her in that role. She had a tremendous game in the NC, but that was so dependent on the post players dominating that I don't think it could have been replicated otherwise. On UConn, it was Evina initially, but then Christyn Azzi and Caroline took over the task. Is there an Evina on SC? A "Mama" E? That's who I don't see absent Boston.

Now flash forward to this season -- we lose Paige before the season starts, which means we don't have to face the disarray of a mid-season reconfiguring of the team. Everyone is prepared to play their roles from the start. On this board, there's lots of optimism (and some muted optimism) that we can make another FF run. But there's also no hope or expectation that Paige will make a grand re-entrance to elevate everyone, which can feel almost claustrophobic. These 10 are who we are, that's it. Now, I suspect that with all those HS AAs, SC would be in a better position given a whole season to adjust. But I'm not sure all the parts exist to build quite as good a team without Boston for the whole season. Try to imagine a FF, or even EE team for SC without Boston and your most promising freshman guard. I know SC fans can do it, just as we do it here. Who would take them down early in March, especially given that they wouldn't be a #1 seed? I'm guessing ND or Louisville or Stanford or even Indiana could pose insuperable hurdles. Not to mention UConn itself. We had a close call against UCF last season. That's the sort thing I'm thinking if.

So yes, I may have overstated the case when I said "I'd worry they wouldn't even make the Sweet Sixteen." But it's only a worry wrapped in a hypothetical, coated in pessimism sauce.

And thank you for your "generous reply" @Bone Dog. It's nice to have dispassionate, intelligent discussions and debates with fans of other schools rather angry, verbal fights. I consider myself both a GameCock fan AND a fan of the Boneyard because of the large number of UConn fans like you. Too many to list though not unanimous.

 

[WFFL]

If I recall the first one, I think Azzi was #19 or somethign like that. So moving up to 13 is cool and is probably due to strong positive reports during pre season.

That's the thing pre season positive comments should not affect the ranking imo. Azzi is a top 25 player when shes healthy , but i cant lie last season was not a top 25 player performance . Im grateful to see her at #13 but based off last season i would have kept her at #19 or even lower.

 

[WFFL]

Pretty good list. I think Fudd is too high based on productivity from last season, though I think she could finish higher by season's end. Surprised Edwards got HM over Ducharme who I think is sorely overlooked. Ducharme was absolutely fantastic last year when healthy and given ample minutes.

Czinano is sorely underrated, definitely should be top 20. No idea how Cooke continues to make these lists and get ranked ahead over more proven players after last year's showing. SC is the clear cut #1 team going into the year but I don't think it's necessary to put 2 players on the list if they don't the fit bill. Morrow should be higher, I'd probably put her at 10 over Harmon. I'd drop Donarski/Cooke in favor of Holmes/Mikesell. Also tough to leave Robertson off the list who will shatter Mitchell's 3pt record and is consistently quite good at OU.

Ducharme was lightyears better than edwards last season . Edwards would not be a Top 25 player on my list Ducharme would be.

 

[WFFL]

Azzi is most likely projected there based on her being healthy this year and being labeled the key threat for the most dominant program in Women's Colledge Basketball history.. Not forgetting she was also once regarded as A generational player and projected to be even more impactful than Paige... So all of that is being considered and rightfully so...

I would question more as to why Aaliyah Edwards is receiving enough votes to be the 26th projected Top player... I would love it to play out that way, but that is a little stretch at this moment in my humble opinion

Projection should not sway the vote though production should . It may be just me , but i hate hearing projection awarding . Zia cooke literally shot 10 % for a stretch of almost 5 games last season . Worst offensive output percentage wise of her 3 years at SC and yet shes a top 25 player ? Whyyy ? How ? People really need to start actually WATCHING the games and not just 1 or 2 and using the projection to state Player X being better than Player Z. What makes those types of assumptions rightful ? Because of the school you attend ? If that's the case lets place Cziano or Hannah Jump in the top 5 .

 

[WFFL]

The potential is there for Jackson but, the ranking may be based on how she played last season. She was very inconsistent and had a number of fans questioning her desire.

Apply these same rules and sentiments to all players on the list when ranking them . Not you specifically but the writers lol

 

[TeamFirst!]

I’d put SC as around #5 without Boston. She gets doubled a lot and that opens up others plus the offensive rebounds, defense etc are huge. SC is probably not the same 3 point shooting team without Henny and Henny was clearly a major talent. If no Boston that means they lose their best 2 players from last year ergo a #5 projection. I’m seeing no love for Raven When she might be one of their best players this year. Their rookie post player will be a force also.

If Azzi doesn’t play a lot of PG then this team will never make the final 2. She needs to be our Catalyst in a way similar to Olivia Miles does with Notre Dame. If she is our primary PG then I think she an AA if she stays healthy.

 

[bballnut90]

Ducharme was lightyears better than edwards last season . Edwards would not be a Top 25 player on my list Ducharme would be.

Agreed. I thought Ducharme was very comparable to Fudd in the games I saw, I'm surprised Fudd is getting so much more attention than Ducharme on here and in the media. If you compare their stats when they each played in 11+ minutes (24 games each), they both scored exactly 303 points (12.6 points per game.) Both had some big scoring outbursts against very good teams (Ducharme vs. Louisville/ND, Fudd vs. NC State/Tennessee), but both seemed to shine individiually while the other was injured or on the bench. Ducharme in particular was a non factor when she she didn't get extended minutes, but she was a more consistent producer when she did get playing time. I think her injury impacted her confidence late in the year and she got lost in the shuffle once Fudd found her groove and once Paige came back. Fudd was streakier overall but was clearly ahead of Ducharme on the depth chart.

 

[Bajan Best]

Projection should not sway the vote though production should . It may be just me , but i hate hearing projection awarding . Zia cooke literally shot 10 % for a stretch of almost 5 games last season . Worst offensive output percentage wise of her 3 years at SC and yet shes a top 25 player ? Whyyy ? How ? People really need to start actually WATCHING the games and not just 1 or 2 and using the projection to state Player X being better than Player Z. What makes those types of assumptions rightful ? Because of the school you attend ? If that's the case lets place Cziano or Hannah Jump in the top 5 .

If it was left to me, South Carolina would be #1 and UConn would be #2 in the country based simply on the performance from last year as the last two standing programs.. Uconn played without Paige last year and with several injured and one very ill individual, so why should one or two injured players have a bearing on this team's ranking at the beginning of the season?.. Let the other teams win a game before leapfrogging a program no matter who they acquired, team chemistry is still to be proven..

The same thing should go for individual preseason accolades, your ranking should be based on what you did in your last 5-10 games, a new injury, however, in this case, should have some bearing on that player's ranking... With that said how do you rank a player such as Muhl, whose individual numbers may not be that impressive to the naked eye, but her importance to the team's success is a whole other thing? She will never make a top 25 list, yet without her last year UCONN probably wouldn't have made it to another final four.. just saying.

 

[jdote33]

Agreed. I thought Ducharme was very comparable to Fudd in the games I saw, I'm surprised Fudd is getting so much more attention than Ducharme on here and in the media. If you compare their stats when they each played in 11+ minutes (24 games each), they both scored exactly 303 points (12.6 points per game.) Both had some big scoring outbursts against very good teams (Ducharme vs. Louisville/ND, Fudd vs. NC State/Tennessee), but both seemed to shine individiually while the other was injured or on the bench. Ducharme in particular was a non factor when she she didn't get extended minutes, but she was a more consistent producer when she did get playing time. I think her injury impacted her confidence late in the year and she got lost in the shuffle once Fudd found her groove and once Paige came back. Fudd was streakier overall but was clearly ahead of Ducharme on the depth chart.

I've been thinking about this a lot, especially trying to see the perspective of the analyst that had UConn ranked 19th. Trying to give her the benefit of the doubt I thought, we did lose 3 seniors and she just might have never really seen Caroline Ducharme play. The Louisville game was pretty early and if u look at her stats and maybe a couple tournament games maybe u wouldn't know how big of a factor she could be. I mean I certainly expect her to be a top 25 player by the end of the season but I'm pretty optimistic.

The South Carolina Convo without Boston is an interesting one. Hearing Staley at SEC media day, she really had a lot of positive things to say about their bigs. So their big depth may be stronger than our guard depth but we have Azzi. Similar to UConn they play some tough road games early so maybe they wouldn't be top 5 by the end of November without her. I do think top 10 is reasonable though.

 

[Bone Dog]

I’m intrigued by how little seems to be known, or recognized about Caroline outside the UConn bubble. Opposing Big East coaches know what to worry about from her. But nationally she may come as a bit of a surprise to people.

 

[cgshuskie]

Caroline is a 6th man. AKA John H.........

 

[EricLA]

Caroline was HUGE last year when everyone went down and she came on gangbusters. Then she got whacked around, others came back, and she pretty much disappeared. She needs to prove she can be a consistent force IMHO. I wouldn't put her on any watch list either at this point.

 

[jdote33]

Not the best news

 

[Tonyc]

You rank Azzi Fudd 13th? LOL I completely disagree