"ND tired of being overshadowed by UConn

[RegisteredUconn]

How is that cherry picking? Notre Dame did win 7 of the previous 8 meetings between the two, and it was spread out over 3 seasons (not 2.) Saying it's cherry picking is like saying that Connecticut's 90 game win streak is cherry picking because if you include the game before the streak and the game after, they went 90-2.

Cherry picking in the sense that they started with a conclusion then went data shopping to justify that conclusion. Why else include only that part of the 2010-11 season that includes the ND win? Why not include the three UConn wins from that season? They excluded pertinent data because it would have undermined their conclusion rather than bolster it.

Your 90 game win streak doesn't relate to my point because it's a statement of fact, not conclusion. If they'd just stated that ND had won seven of eight you'd have been correct, but they didn't stop with the statement of fact. They used that fact to justify their conclusion which was that somehow ND was inside UConn's head, had taken the measure of the Huskies, and had assumed the drivers seat in the series. There may have been some justification for entertaining such a theory and heaven knows positing another program had discovered a chink in Geno's armor and may have already overtaken UConn would surely attract eyeballs. The problem was that once the hypothesis had been articulated, a proper test was needed to verify it. Such tests never contain a step which collects all data supporting the hypothesis and discards anything that doesn't. Such a step is called cherry picking.

 

[HuskyNan]

Since hearing the quotes from Muffet ("they ducked us" and "we're playing with a chip") and McBride ("we're always underdogs ...to Connecticut") I've been trying to understand what's going on. The "they ducked us" theme is almost a year old and still isn't accurate. We are continually reminded on ESPN that Notre Dame has defeated UConn 7 out of the last 9 games, yet Notre Dame says it's always in UConn's shadow and always the underdog. Granted, many fans and most of the media were slow to realize how good Notre Dame is this year, but that was understandable given the departure of their leader. The media and fans are now fully on board with the Irish. Notre Dame is a #1 seed, plays the first 2 rounds close to South Bend and is hosting a regional. I know Muffet is not pleased with Baylor as its #2 seed, but all should be good. What's going on? Why all this talk of "chips" and "underdogs" and "payback" and "anger"? It seems like manufactured grievance and disrespect. My only answer is that Muffet learned in last year's Final Four that her team plays better against UConn when it believes it's the underdog and has something to prove. She's stoking the fire.

Well, she is from Philly. I'm waiting for a waiter reference in the next press conference.

 

[01Neaggrad02]

The best part is Notre Dame is one of thirteen teams to be undefeated going into the post season.

Well UCONN was undefeated going into the post season in 95, 97(?), 02, 09, 10, and now again in 14. So.. six of those thirteen times were UCONN. That is almost half. Just another reason why recruits should come to UCONN

 

[Hongster]

The best part is Notre Dame is one of thirteen teams to be undefeated going into the post season.

Well UCONN was undefeated going into the post season in 95, 97(?), 02, 09, 10, and now again in 14. So.. six of those thirteen times were UCONN. That is almost half. Just another reason why recruits should come to UCONN

Love the stats.

 

[Hongster]

English does you no good on this board. Neither does logic. You need to be able to speak Bonesian, or Yardish. If you can't, fuggedaboutit!

LOL. I like it!

 

[bballnut90]

Cherry picking in the sense that they started with a conclusion then went data shopping to justify that conclusion. Why else include only that part of the 2010-11 season that includes the ND win? Why not include the three UConn wins from that season? They excluded pertinent data because it would have undermined their conclusion rather than bolster it.

Your 90 game win streak doesn't relate to my point because it's a statement of fact, not conclusion. If they'd just stated that ND had won seven of eight you'd have been correct, but they didn't stop with the statement of fact. They used that fact to justify their conclusion which was that somehow ND was inside UConn's head, had taken the measure of the Huskies, and had assumed the drivers seat in the series. There may have been some justification for entertaining such a theory and heaven knows positing another program had discovered a chink in Geno's armor and may have already overtaken UConn would surely attract eyeballs. The problem was that once the hypothesis had been articulated, a proper test was needed to verify it. Such tests never contain a step which collects all data supporting the hypothesis and discards anything that doesn't. Such a step is called cherry picking.

You include that win because it further supports the fact that Notre Dame had the upperhand for 2 full years in the series. They had won 7 of their last 8, including 3 wins in Connecticut and two in the Final Four. Furthermore, Notre Dame DID have UCONNs number (which you stated: I grew so tired of the proclamations that ND had won seven of the last eight against us and thus had our number.)

Saying Notre Dame didn't have UCONN's number is like saying UCONN didn't have Tennessee's number in the early 2000s when UCONN went 8-1 over a 9 game stretch against Tennessee. Can it change? Absolutely. Again, look at UCONN-Tennessee..after Tennessee went 1-8, they went on to win the next three games and gain the upper hand. Just because Notre Dame did have UCONN's number doesn't mean UCONN can't gain the upper hand in the rivalry going forward.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

You include that win because...

And you exclude the other three games the teams played that year because...?

 

[HoopsFan21]

You include that win because it further supports the fact that Notre Dame had the upperhand for 2 full years in the series. They had won 7 of their last 8, including 3 wins in Connecticut and two in the Final Four. Furthermore, Notre Dame DID have UCONNs number (which you stated: I grew so tired of the proclamations that ND had won seven of the last eight against us and thus had our number.)

Saying Notre Dame didn't have UCONN's number is like saying UCONN didn't have Tennessee's number in the early 2000s when UCONN went 8-1 over a 9 game stretch against Tennessee. Can it change? Absolutely. Again, look at UCONN-Tennessee..after Tennessee went 1-8, they went on to win the next three games and gain the upper hand. Just because Notre Dame did have UCONN's number doesn't mean UCONN can't gain the upper hand in the rivalry going forward.

UConn's 29-11 record against Notre Dame suggests UConn still has the upper hand by any measure, and in this case it's a measure of winning percentage which is .725 in UConn's favor. My guess is that Muffet will be dead before Notre Dame ever has the upper hand in the rivalry (if you can even call such a one-sided series a rivalry).

 

[bballnut90]

And you exclude the other three games the teams played that year because...?

Like I said..you include that win because it further supports the fact that Notre Dame had the upperhand for 2 full years in the series. If you're making a point to show how successful Notre Dame has been against UCONN, you put together numbers that are going to fully emphasize your point. If you feel this is cherry picking, then you can take away that Final Four win and leave it with the fact that Notre Dame has won 6 of their last 8 games against UCONN (spanning over 2 seasons) and Muffett is 3-1 against Geno in the Final Four. Is that cherry picking, too?

 

[bballnut90]

UConn's 29-11 record against Notre Dame suggests UConn still has the upper hand by any measure, and in this case it's a measure of winning percentage which is .725 in UConn's favor. My guess is that Muffet will be dead before Notre Dame ever has the upper hand in the rivalry (if you can even call such a one-sided series a rivalry).

Really? Now it's such a one-sided series that you're questioning if it's even a rivalry to bolster your point? Gimme a break.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Really? Now it's such a one-sided series that you're questioning if it's even a rivalry to bolster your point? Gimme a break.

They've played each other for 20 years. ND has done well in two of those years and has been smacked around in the other 18. Sorry, that's not really a rivalry to me, especially when the two teams going forward will be lucky to play once a year. Duke-Carolina, that's a basketball rivalry. UConn-ND is a big game the same way 'Bama vs. any good team in CFB is a big game.

 

[connboy77]

Like I said..you include that win because it further supports the fact that Notre Dame had the upperhand for 2 full years in the series. If you're making a point to show how successful Notre Dame has been against UCONN, you put together numbers that are going to fully emphasize your point. If you feel this is cherry picking, then you can take away that Final Four win and leave it with the fact that Notre Dame has won 6 of their last 8 games against UCONN (spanning over 2 seasons) and Muffett is 3-1 against Geno in the Final Four. Is that cherry picking, too?

As far as National Championships go Geno and Muffett are 1 and 1!

 

[Icebear]

Comparing whole season series is the thing that makes sense since the make up of teams changes year to year.

 

[bballnut90]

They've played each other for 20 years. ND has done well in two of those years and has been smacked around in the other 18. Sorry, that's not really a rivalry to me, especially when the two teams going forward will be lucky to play once a year. Duke-Carolina, that's a basketball rivalry. UConn-ND is a big game the same way 'Bama vs. any good team in CFB is a big game.

Comparing whole season series is the thing that makes sense since the make up of teams changes year to year.

If you do that, then Tennessee and UCONN are equal in their rivalry:
UCONN's winning seasons against UT:
1995
2000
2002
2003
2004

Tennessee's winning seasons:
1998
1999
2005
2006
2007

Using this logic, you can even argue that Tennessee has been superior to UCONN since they won the NCAA tournament games in 1996 and 1997 which were more important than the regular season game they lost each year.

 

[Icebear]

If you do that, then Tennessee and UCONN are equal in their rivalry:
UCONN's winning seasons against UT:
1995
2000
2002
2003
2004

Tennessee's winning seasons:
1998
1999
2005
2006
2007

Using this logic, you can even argue that Tennessee has been superior to UCONN since they won the NCAA tournament games in 1996 and 1997 which were more important than the regular season game they lost each year.

I think that is fair but weighting the tournament games is not anything I was suggesting. I was suggesting that artificially putting a line in the middle of a season when talking about dominance of one team vs another makes little sense. TN's advantage would not be the case if the series had continued.

 

[bballnut90]

They've played each other for 20 years. ND has done well in two of those years and has been smacked around in the other 18. Sorry, that's not really a rivalry to me, especially when the two teams going forward will be lucky to play once a year. Duke-Carolina, that's a basketball rivalry. UConn-ND is a big game the same way 'Bama vs. any good team in CFB is a big game.

If Notre Dame-UCONN isn't a rivalry then there isn't a rivalry in women's basketball.

Also, about your example of Duke-UNC...since 1999, Duke is 25-12 against UNC. 15 year span, so a decent amount of time, and that's a .676 winning percentage in Duke's favor. Close to .725. Looking at those numbers, would you say Duke-UNC isn't a basketball rivalry because in the last 15 years Duke has won consistently?

 

[msf22b]

My guess is that Muffet will be dead before Notre Dame ever has the upper hand in the rivalry (if you can even call such a one-sided series a rivalry).

Notre Dame will be a formidable opponent, if we meet this season
They are the only team in recent years to defeat us often if not decisively.
I find talk such as the quote above silly and gratuitous.

 

[doggydaddy]

If you do that, then Tennessee and UCONN are equal in their rivalry:
UCONN's winning seasons against UT:
1995
2000
2002
2003
2004

Tennessee's winning seasons:
1998
1999
2005
2006
2007

Using this logic, you can even argue that Tennessee has been superior to UCONN since they won the NCAA tournament games in 1996 and 1997 which were more important than the regular season game they lost each year.

Tennessee has nothing to do with it. But since you brought them up, Uconn would have won the last 6 games if they played once a year.

Would have made it 19-9 in favor of Uconn.

Pat knew what was coming.

 

[Suebird10fan]

I don't know about next year. Why is everyone so confident? I mean we're losing two All-Americans in Dolson and Hartley. Do we really think the team is going to be better off next year swapping out Dolson and Hartley for Stokes and Chong/Tuck/Banks (assuming Tuck is even available at the start of next season)? Dolson is probably the most versatile center we've ever had, and Hartley is in statistical categories with Moore and Taurasi. That's not going to be easy to replace.

Well ... we'll have hands down the best player in the country. Add to that the best PG and, if KML returns to soph form, the best 3 in the country. And I expect three of the four freshmen to be in the rotation, so we should be deep. Call me crazy but that sounds really good to me.

 

[Suebird10fan]

Why confident next year? Because we will arguably have the best 1 in the nation, the best 3 in the nation, and the best 4 in the nation. If (and it's a big if) Tuck is anything like her potential, she's one of the top players in her class. Stokes is the best defensive 5 in the nation, and our starting 2 should be either Nurse or Chong. Our bench will be crazy deep and a far cry from the 6 deep we went this year in big games...

I totally agree with you about losing 2 AA's, but the rest of the team returning will be even more improved, and we add one of the very best recruiting classes in the nation, and possibly the best class of guards UCONN has ever recruited.

Guess I shd have read this before I replied!

 

[HoopsFan21]

If Notre Dame-UCONN isn't a rivalry then there isn't a rivalry in women's basketball.

Also, about your example of Duke-UNC...since 1999, Duke is 25-12 against UNC. 15 year span, so a decent amount of time, and that's a .676 winning percentage in Duke's favor. Close to .725. Looking at those numbers, would you say Duke-UNC isn't a basketball rivalry because in the last 15 years Duke has won consistently?

Duke and UNC have been playing each other since World War I, and the series overall is pretty close to even, maybe 20 wins either direction over the course of hundreds of games. That's why it's a great rivalry because both sides over the long haul have had equal chances of winning, not to mention their proximity to one another. UConn and ND are not even in the same time zone as each other, the series overall is pretty lopsided, never mind the fact that they don't even play in the same conference. I'm thinking long and hard about women's basketball "rivalries" and you're right, I'd have to say there really aren't any. There is no Duke-Carolina or Ohio State-Michigan type rivalries. Then again the sport has only been taken seriously for about 25 years, so perhaps one day we'll see real rivalries develop. With respect to UConn; who is their rival? Maybe Tennessee who has the same number of trophies in their case, but you can't really be a rival if the games between the two teams are the better part of a decade apart, though I'll admit for a decade or so there it had the makings of a pretty good rivalry.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Sometimes wins and losses don't make a rival - look at RU.

I appreciate the effort to split hairs so some UConn fans can ignore the wins ND earned.

But that doesn't make those loses any more painful.

But, eventually, UConn won the "big" one and ND didn't. The fact that ND didn't eases the sting for some.

Yet they still claim it's not a rivalry. OIy.

 

[Alydar]

Notre Dame has also lost 7 of their last 9 against Tenn so if they make it to the FF can we just forget about playing the Irish in the NC game? I mean if it's such a relevant statistic it must apply universally, right?

 

[Fightin Choke]

Notre Dame has also lost 7 of their last 9 against Tenn so if they make it to the FF can we just forget about playing the Irish in the NC game? I mean if it's such a relevant statistic it must apply universally, right?

Notre Dame has won the last 4 games vs. Tennessee, but that was after losing the first 20 games in the series. The last 4 games

2011: 73-59 @Dayton to advance to the FF to face UConn
2012: 72-44 @Notre Dame
2013: 77-67 @Tennessee
2014: 86-70 @Tennessee

No one is claiming that it's a foregone conclusion that Notre Dame will win if UConn and Notre Dame play in the NC game this year. Obviously past performance (regardless of the time period utilized) is not a predictor of future success. I think what bballnut is claiming is that it's not crazy to think the ND could beat UConn, as the Irish are one the few teams to ever have this kind of multiyear success against the Huskies. If you were to go back to the first UConn/ND game last season (2012-13 season), there were many of UConn fans predicting 20-point blowouts over the Irish in Storrs, as ND graduated 3 starters (Peters, Novosel, and Mallory) from the previous year. Yet Notre Dame won in a very close contest.

Muffet is one of the few coaches that seems to give Geno trouble. While it's true that UConn has completely dominated the series over its lifetime, Muffet has only recently been getting recruits near UConn's level. She had been trying to compete despite a significant recruiting disadvantage (which certainly fueled UConn's dominance), but now she is starting to reel in top 5 recruits, so she will soon be on a somewhat equal footing with Geno. I think it's reasonable to assume that UConn/Notre Dame is a rivalry now. Just reading some of these threads indicates a fairly large amount of hostility directed towards Notre Dame despite the fact that Notre Dame's WBB team has really done nothing to invoke this wrath.

 

[Fightin Choke]

'I think we're always going to be the underdog when it comes to Connecticut. They're such a great powerhouse and have such a great program over there,'' guard Kayla McBride said. ''But I think it's just a bit of extra motivation.''

Which team was considered the underdog in last year's Final Four game?

UConn was actually the favorite according to the Vegas line. I believe it was around 3-4 points.

 

[calpedaler]

UConn was actually the favorite according to the Vegas line. I believe it was around 3-4 points.

But I seriously doubt that the ND players felt that they were the underdogs in the semis last year.

 

[triaddukefan]

If Notre Dame-UCONN isn't a rivalry then there isn't a rivalry in women's basketball.

Also, about your example of Duke-UNC...since 1999, Duke is 25-12 against UNC. 15 year span, so a decent amount of time, and that's a .676 winning percentage in Duke's favor. Close to .725. Looking at those numbers, would you say Duke-UNC isn't a basketball rivalry because in the last 15 years Duke has won consistently?

Duke-Carolina rivalry goes way beyond the winning percentage against the other. You cant compare UCONN-ND or UCONN-TN to it at all. Maybe if you dont live or never lived in this state, you wouldnt understand how deep it is. Just look at my avatar... and maybe you can get an idea.

Ask the ND fans who were at the ACC Tourney...... they got to witness the rivalry at its best up close. Ask the same ND fans whose fans were behind them in full force during the title game.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Guess we better hope to head to the B1G because I don't think ND will be voting for us to join the ACC.

I'm curious, does Notre Dame have a vote in that sort of thing since they're only a part-time ACC member. I think you have to be in all sports in order to have the opportunity to vote in any of those type things. I suppose that even if they didn't get a vote, they could try and use their influence to sway other presidents to nix the Huskies joining the ACC!

 

[Buzzyboy]

Duke-Carolina rivalry goes way beyond the winning percentage against the other. You cant compare UCONN-ND or UCONN-TN to it at all. Maybe if you dont live or never lived in this state, you wouldnt understand how deep it is. Just look at my avatar... and maybe you can get an idea.

Ask the ND fans who were at the ACC Tourney. they got to witness the rivalry at its best up close. Ask the same ND fans whose fans were behind them in full force during the title game.

I don't think there's anything in Duke, North Carolina that comes close to Ohio State vs. Michigan in football. There is so much more interest in college football than there is in college basketball that it's not even on the same planet. Every human being that I've ever met from Ohio or Michigan is so entrenched in the rivalry that I was shocked. I've met a number of people from North Carolina that are very ho hum about either Duke or North Carolina in ANY sport. They have absolutely no interest. Unless I've met the only human beings from North Carolina that don't know or care about those universities, I don't think your case is that compelling. I do know there is a big interest but as I said, it isn't comparable to that of either the Ohio crowd or Michigan crowd. In talking of fan interest across the country though, if it pertains to women's basketball, they would be much more inclined to watch UConn/Notre Dame or UConn/Tennessee than a Duke/ North Carolina game. The interest in your rivalry is between your borders and nothing close to the national event of the aforementioned games.

 

[Alydar]

Notre Dame has won the last 4 games vs. Tennessee, but that was after losing the first 20 games in the series. The last 4 games

2011: 73-59 @Dayton to advance to the FF to face UConn
2012: 72-44 @Notre Dame
2013: 77-67 @Tennessee
2014: 86-70 @Tennessee

No one is claiming that it's a foregone conclusion that Notre Dame will win if UConn and Notre Dame play in the NC game this year. Obviously past performance (regardless of the time period utilized) is not a predictor of future success. I think what bballnut is claiming is that it's not crazy to think the ND could beat UConn, as the Irish are one the few teams to ever have this kind of multiyear success against the Huskies. If you were to go back to the first UConn/ND game last season (2012-13 season), there were many of UConn fans predicting 20-point blowouts over the Irish in Storrs, as ND graduated 3 starters (Peters, Novosel, and Mallory) from the previous year. Yet Notre Dame won in a very close contest.

Muffet is one of the few coaches that seems to give Geno trouble. While it's true that UConn has completely dominated the series over its lifetime, Muffet has only recently been getting recruits near UConn's level. She had been trying to compete despite a significant recruiting disadvantage (which certainly fueled UConn's dominance), but now she is starting to reel in top 5 recruits, so she will soon be on a somewhat equal footing with Geno. I think it's reasonable to assume that UConn/Notre Dame is a rivalry now. Just reading some of these threads indicates a fairly large amount of hostility directed towards Notre Dame despite the fact that Notre Dame's WBB team has really done nothing to invoke this wrath.

Sorry I got the record wrong. Could swear that I heard that last year was Notre Dame's 1st win against the LV's. Maybe it's reg season games. Or at TBA.

I agree that Notre Dame can win. But like you, I also deal with Irish fans that think that the committee cheated by not sending UConn to Louisville while thinking that letting Notre Dame play at home gives them no advantage and is fair and just.

But the Irish are far from the first team to have success against CT. From 96-98 Tenn had UConn's number and also beat us with Parker. In the mid 2000's Rutgers beat UConn. And Stanford has done UConn in more than once in a big game. They all had their day but after a few years they all slid back. Now it's Notre Dame. I think they will continue to be strong. MM must have found a recruiting secret. Great! I thought the games last year were the best wcbb games I saw in years.

In fact, let UConn in the ACC, tell the NCAA to keep their tournament and have an ACC playoff like the NBA. Best of 5 quarters and semis then 7 game finals. UConn, Notre Dame, Louisville, Duke, UNC and a couple of others would be better than what we have now.