NCAA looking to raise APR to 900 for post-season effective immediately

[Druken Friar]

I'll say this, you were already punished, but why is this so hard? All the other Big East football and basketball teams have no problem. I volunteer my services to the basketball team to make sure this never happens again.

​

fat drunk stupid

 

[Nully]

Slow day at the PC board?

 

[HuskyCarlJ]

Jeff Jacobs tweet: "Hearing new APR rules definitely will not be implemeneted this March in BB"

Assuming he's right, that's HUGE. Still not out of the woods as a post season ban for 2013 or 2014 would still be a disaster.

But it does set up the possibility of a preseason meeting this season where Oriakhi says, "there's only one thing left to do. Win. The. Whole. ducking. Thing." And then Ollie produces a life-size, topless, cardboard cutout of Mark Emmert with gold lamé pieces for the team to rip off after each victory. (Did I mention "Major League" was on the other day?)

 

[Druken Friar]

Slow day at the PC board?

Joking aside, why is this so hard? Doesn't the team get enough resources to make sure that everyone is doing enough school work/ whatever. It seems to me like the head coach just took this too lightly.

However, if the NCAA is singling out UConn BB it might have something to do with the the signing of Andre Drummond and the way it was done by forcing, I mean Michael Bradley "offering up" his scholarship.

 

[DogMania]

Jeff Jacobs tweet: "Hearing new APR rules definitely will not be implemeneted this March in BB"

Can you elaborate? Does he site a source? I hope this is the case. But even so, if the NCAA doesn't make it clear about giving programs that are below the threshold but are showing solid progress a waiver this could have a huge impact on recruiting. If it becomes apparent that UConn is unable to achieve the 2012/13 APR number and the NCAA will not or even might not provide such a waver, how many recruits do you think will want to come here?

Although there is a lot of blame to be shared here, including the UConn Athletic Department and the hoops program for not taking the same academic measures the past few years that they've begun to implement recently, the NCAA possibly acting so aggressively with changes that some programs simply can't adjust to within that time frame is an injustice. Let's hope they allow some room to reward improvement for the programs that have some catching up to do.

Setting aside the validity of the APR formula, I'm okay with penalizing programs that don't do their due diligence with academics, but let's implement a process that will continue to move most if not all programs to address this moving forward and for the long run, and not punish ones that did poorly in the past but are taking measures to correct this.

 

[gibhunter]

It seems to me like the head coach just took this too lightly.

Coach probably could've been more diligent making sure the guys who play were in good academic standing. I guess he's not perfect, you know he was busy trying to win championships.

Having said that our former AD didn't hire a new academic advisor when the last one left to pursue other endeavors. I'm sure that has something to do with it especially if the coach relied on him to keep students in the class room. I'm sure the assistants will pay more attention to this issue now.

 

[Huskymaniac]

Why do PC fans think their program is relevant?

This is absolutely the NCAA going after UConn for the Andre Drummond situation. The teams/schools that are in charge already have bogus courses in place for their "student" athletes. It isn't hard for anyone to pass a class in basket weaving or the history of basketball. UConn makes its students attend the same classes as everyone else. I know. My wife was once a graduate assistant in economics at UConn and she had players on the team in her class.

I want to see the "courses" that the players at Kentucky are "passing" to stay "eligible". And I want to see what Kentucky thinks qualifies as a "student" athlete being "on track to graduate". That means completely different things to different schools. The NCAA is a puppet organization run by a select few schools. They institute a bogus metric and build in holes the size of the Lincoln Tunnel for the chosen schools to drive through. If Wetzel or Parrish want to do some REAL investigative reporting, they would dig into what classes players are taking and what criteria schools are using to declare players on track to graduate. THAT is where the real story is, not what the APR scores are.

 

[tzznandrew]

Joking aside, why is this so hard? Doesn't the team get enough resources to make sure that everyone is doing enough school work/ whatever. It seems to me like the head coach just took this too lightly.

However, if the NCAA is singling out UConn BB it might have something to do with the the signing of Andre Drummond and the way it was done by forcing, I mean Michael Bradley "offering up" his scholarship.

So a couple of things.

First. You are right. It shouldn't be hard. And, typically for UConn, it hasn't been. They've generally done a good job with this in Calhoun's time here. If you read the thread, this comes down to one class which had an academically solid senior (Gavin Edwards) leave for training camp 6 credits shy of finishing, another who never played but never finished (Mandeldove), Nate Miles (obviously a disaster all around), and a couple of transfers who didn't take care of business. Miles is obviously complicated. Edwards, I think, is on his own and I don't blame the staff. It is, on the other hand, on the staff for Mandeldove and the two other transfers. Those combined to tank the rankings. It was a perfect storm of mistakes clustered within a couple of years. They paid for it with scholarship reductions; that should be enough provided they've shown improvement (and, it seems, the school has).

Second. Bradley did offer up his scholarship. You can say he was forced, and basically call him a liar (although coerced). But the kid came from foster parents who, if he didn't qualify for academic scholarships, would have a number of reasons to actually be upset. They weren't. They said he was all for it and excited (remember, Drummond knew and was friends will all these guys--he played on campus frequently).

 

[Deadrody]

Every school does this. When some kids perceive they will not get playing time, they go elsewhere. Others choose to be at the end of the bench. It's the nature of the beast. Wiggins, though, would have seen playing time at UConn. He saw playing time as a freshman. Lack of ability was not the reason Wiggins was shown the door, and I think his later career proved that as the same problems appeared over and over at lesser schools.

I agree here. Doug Wiggins problem(s) was / were not with academics, they were with discipline within the rules. Certainly that lack of discipline affected his academics, but that wasn't a case of taking a kid that couldn't hack it academically. Thing is, you cannot fault Calhoun for taking chances on iffy players when you have a Caron Butler to hold up as the model of success.

I don't think its fair to cheer Calhoun for his success with Butler and then turn around and chide him for trying the same thing with other players.

 

[Druken Friar]

So a couple of things.

First. You are right. It shouldn't be hard. And, typically for UConn, it hasn't been. They've generally done a good job with this in Calhoun's time here. If you read the thread, this comes down to one class which had an academically solid senior (Gavin Edwards) leave for training camp 6 credits shy of finishing, another who never played but never finished (Mandeldove), Nate Miles (obviously a disaster all around), and a couple of transfers who didn't take care of business. Miles is obviously complicated. Edwards, I think, is on his own and I don't blame the staff. It is, on the other hand, on the staff for Mandeldove and the two other transfers. Those combined to tank the rankings. It was a perfect storm of mistakes clustered within a couple of years. They paid for it with scholarship reductions; that should be enough provided they've shown improvement (and, it seems, the school has).

Second. Bradley did offer up his scholarship. You can say he was forced, and basically call him a liar (although coerced). But the kid came from foster parents who, if he didn't qualify for academic scholarships, would have a number of reasons to actually be upset. They weren't. They said he was all for it and excited (remember, Drummond knew and was friends will all these guys--he played on campus frequently).

Ok, you seem to know quite a bit about the issue. Maybe the NCAA doesn't like what happened, who knows. It wouldn't be the first time they got on a coach; see Tarkanian. I seriously doubt this rule gets put in for this season. However, it seems plain that it will be put in place a some point, probably next season. Hopefully, UConn BB will be ok at that point.

 

[upstater]

Joking aside, why is this so hard? Doesn't the team get enough resources to make sure that everyone is doing enough school work/ whatever. It seems to me like the head coach just took this too lightly.

However, if the NCAA is singling out UConn BB it might have something to do with the the signing of Andre Drummond and the way it was done by forcing, I mean Michael Bradley "offering up" his scholarship.

Admit that you don't know the first thing about the APR and be done with it. Realize that we were docked for two kids in their 4th years that didn't complete their semesters. Then realize that Kentucky is doing just fine with their APR even though they have freshman jump to the NBA after a semester.

Do you understand what the APR is? You get the same credit for a graduate as you do for a freshman heading to the NBA. But low and behold, do NOT allow a 7th or 8th semester student to leave without completing that semester's classes.

In other words, it's a joke!

 

[upstater]

So a couple of things.

First. You are right. It shouldn't be hard. And, typically for UConn, it hasn't been. They've generally done a good job with this in Calhoun's time here. If you read the thread, this comes down to one class which had an academically solid senior (Gavin Edwards) leave for training camp 6 credits shy of finishing, another who never played but never finished (Mandeldove), Nate Miles (obviously a disaster all around), and a couple of transfers who didn't take care of business. Miles is obviously complicated. Edwards, I think, is on his own and I don't blame the staff. It is, on the other hand, on the staff for Mandeldove and the two other transfers. Those combined to tank the rankings. It was a perfect storm of mistakes clustered within a couple of years. They paid for it with scholarship reductions; that should be enough provided they've shown improvement (and, it seems, the school has).

Second. Bradley did offer up his scholarship. You can say he was forced, and basically call him a liar (although coerced). But the kid came from foster parents who, if he didn't qualify for academic scholarships, would have a number of reasons to actually be upset. They weren't. They said he was all for it and excited (remember, Drummond knew and was friends will all these guys--he played on campus frequently).

Just as an FYI, Miles doesn't count against the APR, we're lead to believe.

If he did, it would perversely give incentive to schools to retain kids who run afoul of the law.

Of course, you can always improve your APR score by asking a kid who is failing to commit a crime that allows you to throw him out of school.

Then he won't count against your APR.

 

[Walker11]

Was Mandeldove even on the team his last year at Uconn?

 

[upstater]

Ok, you seem to know quite a bit about the issue. Maybe the NCAA doesn't like what happened, who knows. It wouldn't be the first time they got on a coach; see Tarkanian. I seriously doubt this rule gets put in for this season. However, it seems plain that it will be put in place a some point, probably next season. Hopefully, UConn BB will be ok at that point.

First, I don't buy the rules changes have ANYTHING to do with UConn. But secondly, lots of schools have done exactly what UConn did, including Duke and Louisville and many others. You're acting like it's a first.

 

[upstater]

I agree with you that tougher admission standards would be the real way to go, but I seriously doubt if most coaches/athletic departments/CBS/ESPN really want that. I am hopeful that raising the APR will at least get coahces to focus on keeping their athletes taking classes seriously even when the basketball season ends. That has not been the case at UCONN in several years.

I'm obviously arguing that it will make student athletes take classes LESS seriously. Why risk your 4th year senior having trouble in his core courses toward the major? Stick him in joke classes and maybe earn a bonus from the AD. We all know this already happens when some stellar student athletes express an interest in some majors that require major time limitations.

Let's break things down a bit here:

If a student commits a crime, you can toss him out of school without it hitting your APR.
If a student is failing a class and decides to leave school before the semester is up, it hurts your APR.
If a student is failing a class, then commits a crime, you can toss him out of school without hitting your APR.

Someone go through the logic of this and then explain it to me.

This rule will cause all sorts of perverse workarounds that will further warp the relationship between academics and athletics.

I'll defer to John Calipari on this score. He's already a master of the APR.

People should read Tom Penders' comments on the APR. They cut to the quick.

 

[upstater]

It's both. And, of course, the gift that keeps on giving: Nate Miles.

Miles didn't count against UConn. For obvious reasons.

 

[tzznandrew]

Just as an FYI, Miles doesn't count against the APR, we're lead to believe.

If he did, it would perversely give incentive to schools to retain kids who run afoul of the law.

Of course, you can always improve your APR score by asking a kid who is failing to commit a crime that allows you to throw him out of school.

Then he won't count against your APR.

He doesn't? Can you share a link. I guess I buy the logic, but it seems that, for whatever reason, if a student starts classes (and I thought that he did), and doesn't finish in solid academic standing, that it is held against the institution.

 

[Deadrody]

I

If you read the thread, this comes down to one class which had an academically solid senior (Gavin Edwards) leave for training camp 6 credits shy of finishing, another who never played but never finished (Mandeldove), Nate Miles (obviously a disaster all around), and a couple of transfers who didn't take care of business.

I'd like to chime in on a couple things here...

If you are reading this whole thread you already know I come down on the side of personal responsibility. Nobody but the players themselves are ultimately responsible for their academic success. Period.

Beyond that, however, this sounds to me like it is really a weak way to prevent programs from taking a flyer on a kid. And if that's the real point, then you need to structure the rules that way. Because, honestly, that exactly the issue with Darius Smith and Jamal Trice. There is no link between academic potential and basketball talent. NONE. And the only reason either of those guys ran into trouble was because their basketball talent, ultimately, was not enough to measure up at a major division 1 program. Calhoun took a flyer on those guys because he was somewhat desperate for guards. They satisfied the academic entry requirements for eligibility.

I just don't understand why UConn should be punished over academics because Smith and Trice had 2-yr college and Juco level talents. Should they have been able to maintain their academics regardless of their playing time ? Sure. But, again, that's on them, primarily, and secondarily on teh athletic dept. as a whole.

Miles is another guy that Calhoun took a flyer on. The recruiting situation with Miles is irrelevant to the academic discussion completely. And then UConn gets docked on the APR because the University expelled him for disciplinary reasons. Calhoun and the athletic dept. never even had a CHANCE to keep the guy academically eligible.

Frankly, they need to stop trying to force-fit some kind of numerical, statistical system into place that makes it easy for the NCAA. If the NCAA wants to see academic progress, then they need to WORK at it. Make every university maintain a program for orientation, indoctrination, study habit evaluation, curriculum advisement, etc. Make them self-evaluate every player, and then aggregate that into a department-wide self evaluation and initiate corrective actions to improve individual player's performances and programmatic shortfalls. And then the NCAA audits some percentage of the schools every year. You get caught screwing it up and you get audited every year until you are taken off academic probation (such as reduced scholarships or post-season bans).

THAT would actually force the schools to do their work, but most importantly, it would actually make the NCAA do some work for a change, and to me, that seems to be the biggest reason for the BS APR system.

Honestly, you tell me how a program like that 1) can be fooled, and 2) how you blame Nate Miles situation on an inability to maintain academic standards. And the other thing here is that if you document the actions taken to try and keep Darius Smith and Jamal Trice on track, and yet they fail to uphold their personal responsibility, it is, again, hard to hold the university responsible for that.

 

[Druken Friar]

Admit that you don't know the first thing about the APR and be done with it. Realize that we were docked for two kids in their 4th years that didn't complete their semesters. Then realize that Kentucky is doing just fine with their APR even though they have freshman jump to the NBA after a semester.

Do you understand what the APR is? You get the same credit for a graduate as you do for a freshman heading to the NBA. But low and behold, do NOT allow a 7th or 8th semester student to leave without completing that semester's classes.

In other words, it's a joke!

Maybe you should understand the system. It is remarkably easy to achieve a 925 with a little effort. It's also a simple system to understand, just a little math. They also allow APR adjustments when kids leave; it's important they are in good academic standing when they leave. So your wrong about getting the same credit for a kid leaving for the NBA as a kid graduating. The school must apply for an adjustment and show the student was in good standing to get credit upon a transfer or student going to the NBA.

Sounds like the system is working pretty well. All the other Big East programs including UConn football have no problem. It has been in place since 2005. Again, seems like the team took all this way too lightly.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Progress_Rate
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=6584182

 

[upstater]

He doesn't? Can you share a link. I guess I buy the logic, but it seems that, for whatever reason, if a student starts classes (and I thought that he did), and doesn't finish in solid academic standing, that it is held against the institution.

I thought so too, and freescooter provided a link several months back that showed it wasn't the case. It would create the perverse incentive to keep troubled students in classes. We were discussing this in relation to certain ACC players receiving a slap on the wrist for multiple offenses. I joked: at least it won't hurt their APR. And then I was informed that disciplinary cases don't count.

So, when a kid is failing in class, what you do is send an agent provocateur or agent of chaos to befriend him, take him out to an all night party, etc.

 

[Walker11]

Shouldn't the goal be to graduate players? I just don't get how it better to leave after 1 year to the NBA in good academic standing than to leave to play professionally with 6 credits remaining.

 

[upstater]

Maybe you should understand the system. It is remarkably easy to achieve a 925 with a little effort. It's also a simple system to understand, just a little math. They also allow APR adjustments when kids leave; it's important they are in good academic standing when they leave. So your wrong about getting the same credit for a kid leaving for the NBA as a kid graduating. The school must apply for an adjustment and show the student was in good standing to get credit upon a transfer or student going to the NBA.

Sounds like the system is working pretty well. All the other Big East programs including UConn football have no problem. It has been in place since 2005. Again, seems like the team took all this way too lightly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Progress_Rate
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=6584182

You don't understand the system.

A kid leaving school with his classes in order counts for 1 point just as a graduate counts for 1 point. It says so right in the very links you provided! That's asinine!

 

[upstater]

Shouldn't the goal be to graduate players? I just don't get how it better to leave after 1 year to the NBA in good academic standing than to leave to play professionally with 6 credits remaining.

It's better because then the NCAA can say they solved the problems of athletes in academics.

 

[ctchamps]

Maybe you should understand the system. It is remarkably easy to achieve a 925 with a little effort. It's also a simple system to understand, just a little math. They also allow APR adjustments when kids leave; it's important they are in good academic standing when they leave. So your wrong about getting the same credit for a kid leaving for the NBA as a kid graduating. The school must apply for an adjustment and show the student was in good standing to get credit upon a transfer or student going to the NBA.

Sounds like the system is working pretty well. All the other Big East programs including UConn football have no problem. It has been in place since 2005. Again, seems like the team took all this way too lightly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Progress_Rate
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=6584182

How can you prove other programs, including Providence's programs, have not cheated on the reporting of the APR numbers? The NCAA does not check the university reported numbers for accuracy. They rely on the honor system.

It is conceivable that many institutions alter the numbers. They have an incentive to alter numbers. It ensures their ability to recruit players. They have no incentive to be honest because the NCAA does not enter institutions and verify if the numbers are accurate. This is human nature. People speed on the highway when they are not being watched. They cheat on the income tax forms if they believe they don't fit the audit profile.

Furthermore, it is known that JH had a contempt for JC. So it is conceivable he altered numbers for other athletic programs and reported accurate numbers on the men's program with the deliberate intent to embarrass JC. I'm not implying I have proof of this. I'm arguing it is plausible. People have done far more vindictive things in life for what most outside observers would consider petty reasons.

 

[freescooter]

Shouldn't the goal be to graduate players? I just don't get how it better to leave after 1 year to the NBA in good academic standing than to leave to play professionally with 6 credits remaining.

The point is, or at least should be, that neither one of those outcomes is acceptable. I agree with upstater that the APR is a flawed tool. If you wanted real reform, the answer would be that you would do 2 things. first you'd increase the accademic standards for incoming players. Of course when the NCAA did that, John Thompson accused them of racism so they have been ever more gunshy about doing that again. the second thing you'd do is work out a way of ending the one-and-done situation which is really doing awful things to college basketball. here again, there would be all kinds of outcries, but the bottom line is that right now, forf a whole bunch of kids, college basketball is little more than a placeholder until they become eligible for the NBA draft. I have two proposal, either of which would severely reduce this matter. First would be to make basketball scholarships 4 year commitments on both sides. If a player leaves, the coach doesn't get to use that scholarship again the next season, or the next or the next. I'd make exceptions for only 2 or 3 things. 1. the student graduates. In the case of Emeka, for example, that scholarship is available. 2. the player transfers and is accepted to another undergraduate institution. 3. the student leaves school to enter a branch of the United States military. I suggest that if a head coach had to decide on losing a scholarship for 3 years, he would be pretty careful about taking players who might be gone after one season. Would it keep some guys from playing college basketball? Probably. But there are other options today, so making a mockery of college basketball isn't the necessity it was 15 years ago.

The intent of the APR was to try and keep players focusing on the student side of student athletics even after their season's are over. And it was a compromise that came about after the basketball powers complained that the original version, which did give more weight for graduation, upstater, undully penalized those programs that sent lots of players to the pros.