NBA playoffs

[JayKoz]

hartford whalers, ever heard of em? #povertybums

I usually laugh at some of your posts but this is simply going too far.

 

[aceboon]

the year of the calf strain, guys going down left and right.

 

[tzznandrew]

I mean the stat is the stat...

Even if I concede that point, are you saying Kobe is a bad defense player?

So a seven-footer blocking more shots is somehow a detriment to Kobe's case?

If you think Hakeem's defense was limited to his shot blocking, um... you need to watch some video my man. He's everything you would want from a big.

Kobe was a very good defender. The advanced metrics cut through the hype. Despite his longevity, Kobe is only 45th in Defensive WS and he was only in the Top 15 once for Defensive Rating.

Hakeem is 4th in career defensive Win Shares, led the league multiple times in Defensive Win Shares, Defensive Plus/Minus, and Defensive Rating.

We can have a conversation of Hakeem vs. Kobe (I tend towards Hakeem), but defense is not the argument for Kobe. Give him a million All-Defense selections, I don't care. Watch the games. Since the merger, since Bill Russell, Hakeem is the best defender.

 

[superjohn]

If you think Hakeem's defense was limited to his shot blocking, um... you need to watch some video my man. He's everything you would want from a big.

Kobe was a very good defender. The advanced metrics cut through the hype. Despite his longevity, Kobe is only 45th in Defensive WS and he was only in the Top 15 once for Defensive Rating.

Hakeem is 4th in career defensive Win Shares, led the league multiple times in Defensive Win Shares, Defensive Plus/Minus, and Defensive Rating.

We can have a conversation of Hakeem vs. Kobe (I tend towards Hakeem), but defense is not the argument for Kobe. Give him a million All-Defense selections, I don't care. Watch the games. Since the merger, since Bill Russell, Hakeem is the best defender.

Hakeem was cat quick, dude would rip guards all the time and take it coast to coast.

 

[tzznandrew]

See, I always felt like Jordan's defense was overrated. Ben Taylor did a great job of using data and film to illustrate as much a few years ago:

Backpicks GOAT: #2 Michael Jordan

Key Stats and Trends Unmatched combination of scoring volume, efficiency and low turnovers Struggled with shot selection in ’80s before leading offensive dynasty during the ’90s Good de…

thinkingbasketball.net

The three best wing defenders I've ever seen were Pippen, Kawhi and LeBron. And for a one-series performance, watching what LeBron did to Derrick Rose in the 2011 East finals probably stands alone. Nobody in the world could stay in front of Rose at that point, and Rose went for 28 points in game 1 on 10-for-22 shooting.

Spo switched LeBron onto him for game 2, and Rose shot 32-for-98 the rest of the way with 15 turnovers in four games.

Peak LeBron was a monster.

All I'll say about Jordan's defense is look at how he turned around the ******* Wizards' defense in the games he played. He was a very good on-ball defender who absolutely gambled more than he needed to because of his elite athleticism. It led to more steals and blocks combined than any other guard (I believe). He wasn't as good a defender as prime-Pippen or prime-Kawhi, but no perimeter defender is.

LeBron only really tried to play defense like one year (2011-2012) and he lead the league in defensive win shares. Tells you about his ceiling, which is up there with any player ever. But, just like how people feel like he was robbed of MVPs...when you look at his regular-season on the court performance...he sort of mailed it in a lot. And his post-season defensive numbers are very good, not great.

 

[superjohn]

All I'll say about Jordan's defense is look at how he turned around the ******* Wizards' defense in the games he played. He was a very good on-ball defender who absolutely gambled more than he needed to because of his elite athleticism. It led to more steals and blocks combined than any other guard (I believe). He wasn't as good a defender as prime-Pippen or prime-Kawhi, but no perimeter defender is.

LeBron only really tried to play defense like one year (2011-2012) and he lead the league in defensive win shares. Tells you about his ceiling, which is up there with any player ever. But, just like how people feel like he was robbed of MVPs...when you look at his regular-season on the court performance...he sort of mailed it in a lot. And his post-season defensive numbers are very good, not great.

Jordan and Pippen are the two best perimeter defenders ever. Pippen was longer and maybe slightly more versatile because of it but Jordan was faster and the better on ball defender. He took on even more of the tough assignments and had the edge as a one on one defender, he also helped better than Pippen and came up with a lot more blocks and steals than him.

 

[Yanksrock615]

Faulty stat.

He also has significantly more games and attempts than pretty much anyone else on that list. Why should he get dinged for being in more big games and having the guts to take the big shot more than anyone else?

This is a perfect example of how stats and metrics have gone too far. I'm not totally against them but the eye test still should carry some weight. Kobe impacted the game and carried teams like few others in the history of the game.

Kobe wasn’t even the best player on the team in most of his championships lmao.

 

[Yanksrock615]

Kobe and Lebron are probably the two most overrated defensive players of my lifetime. Hakeem and Jordan are the two best defensive players I've ever seen.

Bro really said MJ one of the best defensive players he has ever seen

 

[Yanksrock615]

See, I always felt like Jordan's defense was overrated. Ben Taylor did a great job of using data and film to illustrate as much a few years ago:

Backpicks GOAT: #2 Michael Jordan

Key Stats and Trends Unmatched combination of scoring volume, efficiency and low turnovers Struggled with shot selection in ’80s before leading offensive dynasty during the ’90s Good de…

thinkingbasketball.net

The three best wing defenders I've ever seen were Pippen, Kawhi and LeBron. And for a one-series performance, watching what LeBron did to Derrick Rose in the 2011 East finals probably stands alone. Nobody in the world could stay in front of Rose at that point, and Rose went for 28 points in game 1 on 10-for-22 shooting.

Spo switched LeBron onto him for game 2, and Rose shot 32-for-98 the rest of the way with 15 turnovers in four games.

Peak LeBron was a monster.

Thanks for sharing this video, I was going to when this guy said MJ was the best defender he has ever seen. 90s propaganda on MJ has really brainwashed a whole era it is insane.

 

[Yanksrock615]

All I'll say about Jordan's defense is look at how he turned around the ******* Wizards' defense in the games he played. He was a very good on-ball defender who absolutely gambled more than he needed to because of his elite athleticism. It led to more steals and blocks combined than any other guard (I believe). He wasn't as good a defender as prime-Pippen or prime-Kawhi, but no perimeter defender is.

LeBron only really tried to play defense like one year (2011-2012) and he lead the league in defensive win shares. Tells you about his ceiling, which is up there with any player ever. But, just like how people feel like he was robbed of MVPs...when you look at his regular-season on the court performance...he sort of mailed it in a lot. And his post-season defensive numbers are very good, not great.

Saying Lebron tried to play defense 1 year shows how much NBA you have watched these last 20 years.

 

[tzznandrew]

Saying Lebron tried to play defense 1 year shows how much NBA you have watched these last 20 years.

One full season.

Certainly did so in multiple post-seasons.

But the stats don't lie. His regular season defensive stats are mid, despite the fact that when he wanted to defend he was absolutely exceptional.

 

[REB1094]

Celtics are in a fight with the Donovan Mitchell-less Cavs. They can look like runaway champions one game, and barely look like a playoff team the next. Really strange team

 

[Matrim55]

Celtics are in a fight with the Donovan Mitchell-less Cavs. They can look like runaway champions one game, and barely look like a playoff team the next. Really strange team

Need some big East toughness. Draft Karaban with our first round pick and Tristen with our second and back-to-back chips are guaranteed.

 

[superjohn]

One full season.

Certainly did so in multiple post-seasons.

But the stats don't lie. His regular season defensive stats are mid, despite the fact that when he wanted to defend he was absolutely exceptional.

He got outplayed by Jason Terry in the NBA finals.

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

Kobe wasn’t even the best player on the team in most of his championships lmao.

He was undoubtedly the best player on two of his championship teams which is more than Moses Malone and Dr J. Just as many as Hakeem but by the logic on this thread you’d think he was a scrub compared to them

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

If you think Hakeem's defense was limited to his shot blocking, um... you need to watch some video my man. He's everything you would want from a big.

Kobe was a very good defender. The advanced metrics cut through the hype. Despite his longevity, Kobe is only 45th in Defensive WS and he was only in the Top 15 once for Defensive Rating.

Hakeem is 4th in career defensive Win Shares, led the league multiple times in Defensive Win Shares, Defensive Plus/Minus, and Defensive Rating.

We can have a conversation of Hakeem vs. Kobe (I tend towards Hakeem), but defense is not the argument for Kobe. Give him a million All-Defense selections, I don't care. Watch the games. Since the merger, since Bill Russell, Hakeem is the best defender.

That’s fine. I’m not arguing that Hakeem was a great defender. The poster I was replying too stated that Hakeem has accomplished much more overall than Kobe. I listed many categories where Kobe was better and All defensive teams was just one of them. I’m not hearing any argument for the rest of them.

 

[Matrim55]

MOST PLAYOFF GAMES WITH 30+ PTS, 10+ REB, 5+ AST

• 49 LeBron James
• 20 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
• 19 Larry Bird
• 18 Nikola Jokic
• 15 Giannis Antetokounmpo
• 14 Wilt Chamberlain
• 14 Elgin Baylor
• 12 Jayson Tatum

Doesn't even feel like he's playing that well right now tbh.

 

[superjohn]

Major meltdown for the Mavs on their homecourt, they should've went up 3-1. Awful performance from Doncic.

 

[Deleted at users request]

All I'll say about Jordan's defense is look at how he turned around the ******* Wizards' defense in the games he played. He was a very good on-ball defender who absolutely gambled more than he needed to because of his elite athleticism. It led to more steals and blocks combined than any other guard (I believe). He wasn't as good a defender as prime-Pippen or prime-Kawhi, but no perimeter defender is.

LeBron only really tried to play defense like one year (2011-2012) and he lead the league in defensive win shares. Tells you about his ceiling, which is up there with any player ever. But, just like how people feel like he was robbed of MVPs...when you look at his regular-season on the court performance...he sort of mailed it in a lot. And his post-season defensive numbers are very good, not great.

Did Lebron mail in regular seasons before his second stint in CLE? I don’t remember that but could be misremembering.

He had to play elite defense on the Heat because their best chance at winning was to do that and be a transition team because him and Wade were a bad fit half court offense wise. Spo had to work magic to find an offense that made it work.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Major meltdown for the Mavs on their homecourt, they should've went up 3-1. Awful performance from Doncic.

His knee has been messing with him most of the playoffs. Can’t remember the last time he had 30. Kyrie has been great, but I have no idea why he hasn’t been more aggressive.

 

[Deleted at users request]

That’s fine. I’m not arguing that Hakeem was a great defender. The poster I was replying too stated that Hakeem has accomplished much more overall than Kobe. I listed many categories where Kobe was better and All defensive teams was just one of them. I’m not hearing any argument for the rest of them.

Personally I’m taking Kobe in the top 10 over the Hakeem’s and even Steph’s.

5 championships will do that. Also he has 2 Finals MVPs (more than Steph and tied with Hakeem).

My list would go

Jordan
Lebron (you can flip these 2 haven’t cared to have a Jordan lebron debate in years)
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Bill
Tim
Shaq
Kobe
Wilt

 

[tzznandrew]

Did Lebron mail in regular seasons before his second stint in CLE? I don’t remember that but could be misremembering.

He had to play elite defense on the Heat because their best chance at winning was to do that and be a transition team because him and Wade were a bad fit half court offense wise. Spo had to work magic to find an offense that made it work.

The narrative around the end of his Cleveland stint was that, as great as he was (and he had already been the best player in the league for a few years and won two MVPs), he didn't quite have the defense he would and he needed to add something to his offensive game (people looked towards the post a la Kobe).

He finally got there by his second year in Miami (not that Rose didn't rob an MVP from him that first year). 2012-2018 LeBron was something to behold, particularly in the playoffs, when he started to play full bore.

 

[tzznandrew]

5 championships will do that. Also he has 2 Finals MVPs (more than Steph and tied with Hakeem).

Hakeem did more with less than Kobe. Kobe was a clear #2 in the first three titles (though he was clearly a Top 2-3 player by the last one), and while he was the lead player on the 2009-2010 teams, those teams were pretty amazing, depth-wise.

The argument for Hakeem is ultimately he was a better defender and was able to do more with less. Kobe was a better, less efficient, offensive player, though the era was in general far less efficient so it's hard to hold that too much against him. Honestly, I don't think it matters who you pick here. Both takes are reasonable. Imagining Kobe is Top 5 is a bit wild, though. And though Laker fans pick Kobe as their favorite Laker, the best life-long Laker was Magic.

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

Personally I’m taking Kobe in the top 10 over the Hakeem’s and even Steph’s.

5 championships will do that. Also he has 2 Finals MVPs (more than Steph and tied with Hakeem).

My list would go

Jordan
Lebron (you can flip these 2 haven’t cared to have a Jordan lebron debate in years)
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Bill
Tim
Shaq
Kobe
Wilt

Finally some common sense.

Thank you good sir.

 

[Deleted at users request]

The narrative around the end of his Cleveland stint was that, as great as he was (and he had already been the best player in the league for a few years and won two MVPs), he didn't quite have the defense he would and he needed to add something to his offensive game (people looked towards the post a la Kobe).

He finally got there by his second year in Miami (not that Rose didn't rob an MVP from him that first year). 2012-2018 LeBron was something to behold, particularly in the playoffs, when he started to play full bore.

Yeah I remember the post convos towards the end of CLE and him hitting up Hakeem in Miami to fix it.

2012-2018 Lebro was pretty much what people talked about with Jordan during his prime. He was absolutely unstoppable come playoff time. Just ran into the greatest team of all time with that KD Warriors team.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Hakeem did more with less than Kobe. Kobe was a clear #2 in the first three titles (though he was clearly a Top 2-3 player by the last one), and while he was the lead player on the 2009-2010 teams, those teams were pretty amazing, depth-wise.

The argument for Hakeem is ultimately he was a better defender and was able to do more with less. Kobe was a better, less efficient, offensive player, though the era was in general far less efficient so it's hard to hold that too much against him. Honestly, I don't think it matters who you pick here. Both takes are reasonable. Imagining Kobe is Top 5 is a bit wild, though. And though Laker fans pick Kobe as their favorite Laker, the best life-long Laker was Magic.

Agreed on both points. Even as a Kobe hater I find it hard to not give him credits for the 5 rings though. Even with the depth of the 2009-2010 squads they don’t win without him being Kobe. We’re seeing that now with the TWolves and Ant with a team that’s built almost exactly the same way. (Right down to the bigs that were big but had reputations for being soft).

Roster definitely had something to do with it, but it’s like that in a lot of these cases when it comes to these talks. Can’t see how people reasonably put him top 5 though let alone top 3.

 

[HuskyHawk]

MOST PLAYOFF GAMES WITH 30+ PTS, 10+ REB, 5+ AST

• 49 LeBron James
• 20 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
• 19 Larry Bird
• 18 Nikola Jokic
• 15 Giannis Antetokounmpo
• 14 Wilt Chamberlain
• 14 Elgin Baylor
• 12 Jayson Tatum

Doesn't even feel like he's playing that well right now tbh.

9-9 at the line, still not shooting all that well. 4 Turnovers. He can be a lot better than this.

I think some of it is just playing more as a 4 with Porzingis out. He's clearly focused on rebounding. They can't play Al any minutes at the 4. Seemed like he's starting to take it to the rim more, which is good.

 

[Deleted at users request]

SGA with 34 in a win without a single made shot at the rim or from 3. Masterful.

Tatum seems to be much more aggressive in the mid game as well recently (finally)

 

[SportsFan88]

SGA was elite down the stretch last night

 

[superjohn]

His knee has been messing with him most of the playoffs. Can’t remember the last time he had 30. Kyrie has been great, but I have no idea why he hasn’t been more aggressive.

I know Luka is hurt and not himself but it's the playoffs, you gotta play through it and perform. Kyrie was awful too, the assist #'s were good but he's not there to get 9 points. You can't build up a big lead like that at home and then get no scoring from Doncic or Irving. One of them can be bad but not both of them.

They're getting everything they need from Gaffard and Lively holding down the middle and PJ Washington has been their best player in the series. If either Luka or Kyrie would step up they would have total control of this series. It's Luka's team, he needs to step up.