NBA playoffs

[Mr. French]

I got into an argument the other day about this. It is tragic that Kobe died and he was hugely influential. But nobody had Kobe in the top 10 prior. Now, there are some saying he's in top 3 with MJ and Lebron.

Unless MVPs is the sticking point, Kobe has accomplished a heck of a lot more than Dr. J, Moses Malone and even Hakeem

He wasn’t better than Hakeem, in my opinion, and I didn’t personally watch the other 2 but I’ve always had him somewhere solidly in the 10-15 range.

I could listen to him above J and Moses, but still not top 10.

Jokic, Curry have already started affecting his status, too. Who knows how Giannis or Luka finish, to name a few.

 

[Matrim55]

Unless MVPs is the sticking point, Kobe has accomplished a heck of a lot more than Dr. J, Moses Malone and even Hakeem

I care about impact metrics and clutch performance more than MVPs (tho I do still care about MVPs). Kobe's below all three of those guys in basically every impact metric for both regular and post-season, has fewer MVPs and shot 27% in the clutch in the postseason.

He’s in the 60s in career win shares/48 in the playoffs, and in the 30s in box +/-. He fares even worse when it comes to RAPM and EPM.

If you’re talking about pure numbers, 14th probably overrates him.

 

[boog204]

Unless MVPs is the sticking point, Kobe has accomplished a heck of a lot more than Dr. J, Moses Malone and even Hakeem

Dr. J and Moses for sure... Not sure about Hakeem.

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

I care about impact metrics and clutch performance more than MVPs (tho I do still care about MVPs). Kobe's below all three of those guys in basically every impact metric for both regular and post-season, has fewer MVPs and shot 27% in the clutch in the postseason.

View attachment 100690

He’s in the 60s in career win shares/48 in the playoffs, and in the 30s in box +/-. He fares even worse when it comes to RAPM and EPM.

If you’re talking about pure numbers, 14th probably overrates him.

Faulty stat.

He also has significantly more games and attempts than pretty much anyone else on that list. Why should he get dinged for being in more big games and having the guts to take the big shot more than anyone else?

This is a perfect example of how stats and metrics have gone too far. I'm not totally against them but the eye test still should carry some weight. Kobe impacted the game and carried teams like few others in the history of the game.

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

Dr. J and Moses for sure... Not sure about Hakeem.

More games, higher scoring average, more championships, more 1st team All-NBA honors, more All-defensive team honors, more All-star appearances...

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

He wasn’t better than Hakeem, in my opinion, and I didn’t personally watch the other 2 but I’ve always had him somewhere solidly in the 10-15 range.

I could listen to him above J and Moses, but still not top 10.

Jokic, Curry have already started affecting his status, too. Who knows how Giannis or Luka finish, to name a few.

Curry is fair.

Jokic, Giannis and Luka have a long way to go. They are off to get starts but last I checked winning matters most and in that area they are not in Kobe's ballpark yet.

 

[Mr. French]

Curry is fair.

Jokic, Giannis and Luka have a long way to go. They are off to get starts but last I checked winning matters most and in that area they are not in Kobe's ballpark yet.

Of course not.

Just saying you can easily come up with 10 guys better than Kobe, if you’re being fair and objective. And that number isn’t getting smaller.

 

[aceboon]

I got into an argument the other day about this. It is tragic that Kobe died and he was hugely influential. But nobody had Kobe in the top 10 prior. Now, there are some saying he's in top 3 with MJ and Lebron.

NBA players would certainly disagree with "nobody"

 

[boog204]

NBA players would certainly disagree with "nobody"

Probably should've said "upper half of the top 10." I can see him in the 10-12 range without breaking it all down.

 

[superjohn]

Curry is fair.

Jokic, Giannis and Luka have a long way to go. They are off to get starts but last I checked winning matters most and in that area they are not in Kobe's ballpark yet.

You also have to take into account who you're winning with/without. Kobe won with another top 10 type all-time player in the height of his prime who was better than him and then won with another hall of fame big in his prime. Jokic is yet to play with another all-star in his career and didn't have his best teammate for multiple playoffs and was also missing his second best teammate for another one of those playoffs. He had the worst roster in the league when those guys were out.

 

[Matrim55]

Faulty stat.

He also has significantly more games and attempts than pretty much anyone else on that list. Why should he get dinged for being in more big games and having the guts to take the big shot more than anyone else?

Because making the right basketball play -- i.e, finding the open man like Jordan and LeBron always did/does -- is part of being a great player. Kobe's selfishness consistently made his team worse in big moments.

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

Because making the right basketball play -- i.e, finding the open man like Jordan and LeBron always did/does -- is part of being a great player. Kobe's selfishness consistently made his team worse in big moments.

At the end of the day, Kobe won nearly as much as those guys did. Are there multiple championships the Lakers missed out on because Kobe refused to pass? How many times did Lebron pass to someone else and they missed it instead of him?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

knicks are so fraudulent you'd think they were a member of the church league (bums). negative 23 scoring margin in the playoffs.

Complain all you want but the Cincinnati Royals are never coming back.

I cannot even imagine how humiliating it must be to lose a franchise to Kansas City (and Omaha).

 

[husky429]

I care about impact metrics and clutch performance more than MVPs (tho I do still care about MVPs). Kobe's below all three of those guys in basically every impact metric for both regular and post-season, has fewer MVPs and shot 27% in the clutch in the postseason.

View attachment 100690

He’s in the 60s in career win shares/48 in the playoffs, and in the 30s in box +/-. He fares even worse when it comes to RAPM and EPM.

If you’re talking about pure numbers, 14th probably overrates him.

How much does era factor into how you think about your ranking? I look a lot at efficiency and things, but those 2000s guys were just given a brutal hand in how the game was actually played. I've gotta imagine a Kobe in his prime in 2024 would look a lot better on some of these metrics.

 

[Matrim55]

How much does era factor into how you think about your ranking? I look a lot at efficiency and things, but those 2000s guys were just given a brutal hand in how the game was actually played. I've gotta imagine a Kobe in his prime in 2024 would look a lot better on some of these metrics.

Impact metrics control for era -- pace, league-wide true shooting %, offensive & defensive rating, etc. That's part of why I value them so highly.

I'm not sure Kobe would look better in the modern era, though. He was a remarkable bad-shot-taker and maker out of the triple threat position, and those types of shots (and players) have either adapted or died out. Would he have had the ego to diversify his game like Ant has? Would he have been able to play a supporting role in a two-man game with a big the way Murray's done?

I kind of doubt it, though obviously we'll never know.

In the end, tho, we're talking about a top ~15 player of all-time in spite of his shortcomings.

Also, my hottest basketball take: If Ray ends up on the Lakers instead of Kobe, they win 5 titles instead of 3 with Shaq because 1) better spacing, 2) Ray was a more willing sidekick, and 3) Ray was far, far, far more clutch than Kobe.

 

[tzznandrew]

more All-defensive team honors

Are you seriously comparing Kobe's defense to Hakeem's, or am I just misreading you?

Those All-Defense teams aren't particularly meaningful in comparison...

Remember, too, that Hakeem played a position where only one guy could get All Defense, and he played in the same era as Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo. Despite that he had more All Defense than all of them, and won DPOY twice (when, frankly, he is almost certainly the best defensive player in the post-merger era...).

 

[Mr. French]

Impact metrics control for era -- pace, league-wide true shooting %, offensive & defensive rating, etc. That's part of why I value them so highly.

I'm not sure Kobe would look better in the modern era, though. He was a remarkable bad-shot-taker and maker out of the triple threat position, and those types of shots (and players) have either adapted or died out. Would he have had the ego to diversify his game like Ant has? Would he have been able to play a supporting role in a two-man game with a big the way Murray's done?

I kind of doubt it, though obviously we'll never know.

In the end, tho, we're talking about a top ~15 player of all-time in spite of his shortcomings.

Also, my hottest basketball take: If Ray ends up on the Lakers instead of Kobe, they win 5 titles instead of 3 with Shaq because 1) better spacing, 2) Ray was a more willing sidekick, and 3) Ray was far, far, far more clutch than Kobe.

I always was sour on Kobe as a player and guy, and got competitive about him vs. Ray. Your stats and takes back up my theories.

I used to say the same things about Ray in the mid 2000s when Kobe became a superstar because of LA, Shaq and his own self-promotion. Ray quietly balled with Lewis and Ridnour his best teammates.

I was, and still am, the biggest Ray Allen fan this side of NY, so I admitted bias. But never dug further into metrics. I deeply appreciate these posts, from that perspective.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Are you seriously comparing Kobe's defense to Hakeem's, or am I just misreading you?

Those All-Defense teams aren't particularly meaningful in comparison...

Remember, too, that Hakeem played a position where only one guy could get All Defense, and he played in the same era as Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo. Despite that he had more All Defense than all of them, and won DPOY twice (when, frankly, he is almost certainly the best defensive player in the post-merger era...).

Best defensive center not named Bill Russell. I think we tend to forget how great some of these players were. Someone seemed to casually suggest Dr. J wasn't as good as Kobe. I don't know how you can say that about guys in different eras, especially one who won 3 MVPs in the ABA. If anything there are cases where the inverse is true. Curry before the 3 point shot? Would be good, not great really.

 

[superjohn]

Are you seriously comparing Kobe's defense to Hakeem's, or am I just misreading you?

Those All-Defense teams aren't particularly meaningful in comparison...

Remember, too, that Hakeem played a position where only one guy could get All Defense, and he played in the same era as Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo. Despite that he had more All Defense than all of them, and won DPOY twice (when, frankly, he is almost certainly the best defensive player in the post-merger era...).

Kobe and Lebron are probably the two most overrated defensive players of my lifetime. Hakeem and Jordan are the two best defensive players I've ever seen.

 

[tzznandrew]

Kobe and Lebron are probably the two most overrated defensive players of my lifetime. Hakeem and Jordan are the two best defensive players I've ever seen.

When LeBron wants to play exceptional defense, he can. Jordan just did it all the time.

Early-2000s Kobe was an exceptional defender, but he coasted into a ton of all-defensive teams because of reputation. And, to be clear, he was not in the same league as Jordan.

For wing defenders I've seen, it really is Jordan, Kawhi, Pippen, and Draymond. Rodman is also in that top level, but it's hard to figure out where, exactly to place him because he could guard Bird or Robinson.

Hakeem is sort of in a class by himself for centers I've seen. He could just do so so much. I'd say he's the best defender I've ever seen.

 

[whosurdaddy2720]

Are you seriously comparing Kobe's defense to Hakeem's, or am I just misreading you?

Those All-Defense teams aren't particularly meaningful in comparison...

Remember, too, that Hakeem played a position where only one guy could get All Defense, and he played in the same era as Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo. Despite that he had more All Defense than all of them, and won DPOY twice (when, frankly, he is almost certainly the best defensive player in the post-merger era...).

I mean the stat is the stat...

Even if I concede that point, are you saying Kobe is a bad defense player?

So a seven-footer blocking more shots is somehow a detriment to Kobe's case?

 

[superjohn]

When LeBron wants to play exceptional defense, he can. Jordan just did it all the time.

Early-2000s Kobe was an exceptional defender, but he coasted into a ton of all-defensive teams because of reputation. And, to be clear, he was not in the same league as Jordan.

For wing defenders I've seen, it really is Jordan, Kawhi, Pippen, and Draymond. Rodman is also in that top level, but it's hard to figure out where, exactly to place him because he could guard Bird or Robinson.

Hakeem is sort of in a class by himself for centers I've seen. He could just do so so much. I'd say he's the best defender I've ever seen.

Wild stat, nobody else even comes close to accomplishing this in a season. Obviously there's more to defense than steals and blocks but this shows how ridiculous their versatility was defensively...

 

[Matrim55]

When LeBron wants to play exceptional defense, he can. Jordan just did it all the time.

See, I always felt like Jordan's defense was overrated. Ben Taylor did a great job of using data and film to illustrate as much a few years ago:

Backpicks GOAT: #2 Michael Jordan

Key Stats and Trends Unmatched combination of scoring volume, efficiency and low turnovers Struggled with shot selection in ’80s before leading offensive dynasty during the ’90s Good de…

thinkingbasketball.net

The three best wing defenders I've ever seen were Pippen, Kawhi and LeBron. And for a one-series performance, watching what LeBron did to Derrick Rose in the 2011 East finals probably stands alone. Nobody in the world could stay in front of Rose at that point, and Rose went for 28 points in game 1 on 10-for-22 shooting.

Spo switched LeBron onto him for game 2, and Rose shot 32-for-98 the rest of the way with 15 turnovers in four games.

Peak LeBron was a monster.

 

[Matrim55]

I always was sour on Kobe as a player and guy, and got competitive about him vs. Ray. Your stats and takes back up my theories.

I used to say the same things about Ray in the mid 2000s when Kobe became a superstar because of LA, Shaq and his own self-promotion. Ray quietly balled with Lewis and Ridnour his best teammates.

Here's one that still keeps me up at night: What happens if Minnesota doesn't make that idiotic draft day trade for Marbury and Ray gets to spend 10-15 years with KG?

Those two guys were perfect together, and so easy to add pieces around them.

 

[HuskyHawk]

When LeBron wants to play exceptional defense, he can. Jordan just did it all the time.

Early-2000s Kobe was an exceptional defender, but he coasted into a ton of all-defensive teams because of reputation. And, to be clear, he was not in the same league as Jordan.

For wing defenders I've seen, it really is Jordan, Kawhi, Pippen, and Draymond. Rodman is also in that top level, but it's hard to figure out where, exactly to place him because he could guard Bird or Robinson.

Hakeem is sort of in a class by himself for centers I've seen. He could just do so so much. I'd say he's the best defender I've ever seen.

Michael Cooper has entered the chat.

 

[superjohn]

Michael Cooper has entered the chat.

Not at either Jordan or Pippen's level. He was good at ball denial like Bruce Bowen and could put some clamps on you but he simply didn't have the defensive versatility of Jordan or Pippen.

 

[Mr. French]

Lots of smart takes and people I tend to agree with here, just saying HATERS!

Here's one that still keeps me up at night: What happens if Minnesota doesn't make that idiotic draft day trade for Marbury and Ray gets to spend 10-15 years with KG?

Those two guys were perfect together, and so easy to add pieces around them.

At the time they just drafted Donyell too. I remember being OVER THE MOON the Wolves took him, I liked their unis and Donyell and Ray were my 2 favorites. Then they trade him.

In fact, to come full circle, I was a Hornets and Huskies fan, so I would have become an even bigger Wolves fan…but had Kobe not demanded his way out of Charlotte an hour later, I’d prob be a huge Kobe fan. That was his first strike for me.

 

[kobe]

Complain all you want but the Cincinnati Royals are never coming back.

I cannot even imagine how humiliating it must be to lose a franchise to Kansas City (and Omaha).

hartford whalers, ever heard of em? #povertybums

 

[FfldCntyFan]

hartford whalers, ever heard of em? #povertybums

Yes I have. I even remember their WHA days. Saw them play a team called the Stingers once. Sadly that market wasn't sufficient to make the cut when the NHL absorbed a few WHA teams.

 

[HitDog]

Donovan Mitchell out for tonight’s game.