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HuskyHawk

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Jokic had a backcourt of Campazzo and Austin Rivers and he's still yet to play with an all-star. Putting Tatum's name in their with Jordan, Lebron, Jokic, Curry is ridiculous.

Tatum overall has been terrible in 4th quarters of playoff games.
It's simply an example. He just turned 26 in March. Curry was 27 when he first won a title. So was LeBron. Jordan was 28, so was Durant. Jokic is 29. I don't know what his legacy will be, but it has a long way to go.
 
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Tatum overall has been terrible in 4th quarters of playoff games.
Tatum has the highest effective FG% in the league in crunch time over the past three postseasons:

Jayson Tatum is clutch when it matters.jpeg


He's also got a 46-point game 6 on the road in an elimination game and a league-record 51-point game 7.
 
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Tatum has the highest effective FG% in the league in crunch time over the past three postseasons:

View attachment 100577

He's also got a 46-point game 6 on the road in an elimination game and a league-record 51-point game 7.
Thanks for finding these stats. Could Tatum choose to assert himself more at times? Yes of course, but I always thought the narrative that Tatum isn't clutch was artificially manufactured and your stats back that up.

Do you have have a subscription to Stathead.com?
 
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Tatum has the highest effective FG% in the league in crunch time over the past three postseasons:

View attachment 100577

He's also got a 46-point game 6 on the road in an elimination game and a league-record 51-point game 7.
In the past three seasons and playoffs he's shooting 36.5% in the last 5 minutes of close games and 23% on three pointers. He averaged 3 ppg on 24% shooting in 4th quarters against the Warriors in the finals. He had 5 ppg on 36% shooting and as many turnovers as assists in the 4th quarters against Miami last season in the Eastern Conference finals. He went scoreless in the 4th quarter in three of those losses.
 
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Thanks for finding these stats. Could Tatum choose to assert himself more at times? Yes of course, but I always thought the narrative that Tatum isn't clutch was artificially manufactured and your stats back that up.

Do you have have a subscription to Stathead.com?
I did, but canceled it a while back. It's only $10 a month and a lot of fun if you want to win online arguments.

For what it's worth: Tatum could definitely be better in crunch time. He's been turnover-prone and goes Kobe-brained with those stupid stepbacks instead of just running the right action (running their pet actions in crunch time is what has made Denver so good).

Of course, there's only one true crunch time god of the past 25 years, and we all know who that was:

tatum crunch.jpeg
 
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This seems like a weird narrative to push when they haven't broken a sweat yet in the playoffs. Seems like the kind of thing to revisit if they actually lose a series and he's bad.
 
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I'm not gonna bother to fact check the rest of your post, but:

In the 4th quarter of game 1 he had 6 points.
In the 4th quarter of game 2 he had 5 points.
In the 4th quarter of game 3 he did not play.
In the 4th quarter of game 7, playing hurt, he had 2 points.

The "Tatum is a playoff choker" narrative is about as real as the "Hurley can't win a close game" narrative.
Sorry, no field goals against the Heat in three of the 4th quarter losses in the Eastern Conference finals. 36% fg, 10% three point, as many turnovers as assists. He still may have been better than he was in the fourth quarters against the Warriors in the finals.
 
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This seems like a weird narrative to push when they haven't broken a sweat yet in the playoffs. Seems like the kind of thing to revisit if they actually lose a series and he's bad.
I’m a Celtics fan and “is Tatum good enough to be the best player on a title team?” is 100% a debate worth having — and for what it’s worth, at this point i think he’s just short of that standard.

But…

1. He’s been awesome in every facet of the game except shooting so far this postseason,

2. He has a history of performing in the biggest games, and

3. Anyone who brings up his two biggest “failures” (2022 finals and 2023 game 7 v Miami) without mentioning that he was injured for both is probably arguing in bad faith.


Dude’s been amazing, and I don’t think he’s peaked yet. Just wish he hadn’t gone to Duke.
 
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I did, but canceled it a while back. It's only $10 a month and a lot of fun if you want to win online arguments.

For what it's worth: Tatum could definitely be better in crunch time. He's been turnover-prone and goes Kobe-brained with those stupid stepbacks instead of just running the right action (running their pet actions in crunch time is what has made Denver so good).

Of course, there's only one true crunch time god of the past 25 years, and we all know who that was:

View attachment 100581
63% from 3 is insane
 

nomar

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Neither of those are facts. They are just your opinion. Tatum has absolutely taken over games in the playoffs (as has Brown). He had a 50 point game in a key win vs the Nets in 2021. He's dominated multiple different playoff games in his career. He had a triple double a few games ago.

Until last year, Jokic hadn't led his team to a title either. At some point neither had MJ or LeBron or Steph Curry or Durant or Tim Duncan. The last team to win a title without a dominant offensive talent was Toronto. But it shouldn't be surprising that teams without good players don't win NBA titles. This whole "alpha" concept is silly. It's a misguided throwback to the Jordan era. Look at the GS titles and you'll see that Curry, Green, Durant led them in scoring in different series.

For every time some supposed "alpha" took over a game there's another time when they tried, missed a ton of shots and their team lost. You don't want a guy doing that, ever. It's crappy basketball. It's what Tatum (and Brown) did when he was younger. He has matured and realized that approach doesn't lead to winning.

It's not an opinion. It is a rock solid fact. Show me one guy below who you can say is not above Tatum's level.

I'm not saying you need to win a title to be a megastar, but you need to have a megastar to a win a title...unless you're 2004 Detroit (arguably 2008 Boston, although KG finished 3rd in the MVP vote) and, hopefully, 2024 Boston.

I'm not saying you can't have more than one, which you seem to be inferring from my use of the word "alpha"; the Heat and Warrior superteams put together various megastars to great success.
  • 2022- Curry
  • 2021- Giannis
  • 2020 - LeBron
  • 2019 - Kawhi
  • 2018 - Curry/Durant
  • 2017 - Curry/Durant
  • 2016 - LeBron
  • 2015 - Curry
  • 2014 - Duncan
  • 2013 - LeBron/Wade
  • 2012 - LeBron/Wade
  • 2011- Dirk
  • 2010 - Kobe
  • 2009 - Kobe
  • 2008 - KG
  • 2007 - Duncan
  • 2006 - Shaq
  • 2005 - Duncan
  • 2004 - NONE
  • 2003 - Duncan/Robinson
  • 2002 - Shaq
  • 2001 - Shaq
  • 2000 - Shaq
  • 1999 - Robinson
  • 1998 - Jordan
  • 1997 - Jordan
  • 1996 - Jordan
  • 1995 - Hakeem
  • 1994 - Hakeem
  • 1993 - Jordan
  • 1992 - Jordan
  • 1991 - Jordan
I love Tatum and I hope he breaks through to the next level. He's just not there yet.
 
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HuskyHawk

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It's not an opinion. It is a rock solid fact. Show me one guy below who you can say is not above Tatum's level.

I'm not saying you need to win a title to be a megastar, but you need to have a megastar to a win a title...unless you're 2004 Detroit (arguably 2008 Boston, although KG finished 3rd in the MVP vote) and, hopefully, 2024 Boston.

I'm not saying you can't have more than one, which you seem to be inferring from my use of the word "alpha"; the Heat and Warrior superteams put together various megastars to great success.
  • 2022- Curry
  • 2021- Giannis
  • 2020 - LeBron
  • 2019 - Kawhi
  • 2018 - Curry/Durant
  • 2017 - Curry/Durant
  • 2016 - LeBron
  • 2015 - Curry
  • 2014 - Duncan
  • 2013 - LeBron/Wade
  • 2012 - LeBron/Wade
  • 2011- Dirk
  • 2010 - Kobe
  • 2009 - Kobe
  • 2008 - KG
  • 2007 - Duncan
  • 2006 - Shaq
  • 2005 - Duncan
  • 2004 - NONE
  • 2003 - Duncan/Robinson
  • 2002 - Shaq
  • 2001 - Shaq
  • 2000 - Shaq
  • 1999 - Robinson
  • 1998 - Jordan
  • 1997 - Jordan
  • 1996 - Jordan
  • 1995 - Hakeem
  • 1994 - Hakeem
  • 1993 - Jordan
  • 1992 - Jordan
  • 1991 - Jordan
I love Tatum and I hope he breaks through to the next level. He's just not there yet.
Kawhi is well behind Tatum as an offensive player. Kevin Garnett? Are you serious with that? Pierce was the money guy on that team, and then Ray. KG played D. Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway. Dirk was like 33-34 when he finally won his one title. He was a hell of a scorer, but he had to be because his teams sucked. As a reminder, Tatum just turned 26. Take a look at David Robinson's playoff scoring and tell me he's a more reliable scorer than Tatum. I'm not questioning whether he's an all-time great, he is, but not because of clutch scoring.

Here's the overall Per Game stats in the playoffs, all time. Tatum is 34th on that list and will move up, since his first two playoff seasons are dragging down the average. He's also averaging 5 assists and 10 boards a game the last two seasons. Is he there with the greatest players of all time like Jordan, LeBron, Duncan and Curry? Of course not.
 
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Kawhi is well behind Tatum as an offensive player. Kevin Garnett? Are you serious with that? Pierce was the money guy on that team, and then Ray. KG played D. Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway. Dirk was like 33-34 when he finally won his one title. He was a hell of a scorer, but he had to be because his teams sucked. As a reminder, Tatum just turned 26. Take a look at David Robinson's playoff scoring and tell me he's a more reliable scorer than Tatum. I'm not questioning whether he's an all-time great, he is, but not because of clutch scoring.

Here's the overall Per Game stats in the playoffs, all time. Tatum is 34th on that list and will move up, since his first two playoff seasons are dragging down the average. He's also averaging 5 assists and 10 boards a game the last two seasons. Is he there with the greatest players of all time like Jordan, LeBron, Duncan and Curry? Of course not.
Lolz, you think Tatum is better than Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi were then.

"Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway." What?!??

Did you just start watching the NBA a couple of years ago?
 
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Kawhi is well behind Tatum as an offensive player. Kevin Garnett? Are you serious with that? Pierce was the money guy on that team, and then Ray. KG played D. Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway. Dirk was like 33-34 when he finally won his one title. He was a hell of a scorer, but he had to be because his teams sucked. As a reminder, Tatum just turned 26. Take a look at David Robinson's playoff scoring and tell me he's a more reliable scorer than Tatum. I'm not questioning whether he's an all-time great, he is, but not because of clutch scoring.

Here's the overall Per Game stats in the playoffs, all time. Tatum is 34th on that list and will move up, since his first two playoff seasons are dragging down the average. He's also averaging 5 assists and 10 boards a game the last two seasons. Is he there with the greatest players of all time like Jordan, LeBron, Duncan and Curry? Of course not.
Kawhi is more efficient by like, every metric. He doesn’t need to shoot high volume to get what he gets.
 

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I am Knicks fan but never really hated the Celtics like I did the Red Sox probably because if never seemed the teams were good at the same time. But anyway there are a number of posts about how clutch Tatum is and some data and opinion on the answer. I think a good percentage of the media has talked about his lack of showing up big during the big moments.
Don’t think I have seen anyone question that he is a star.

I just saw that he is the odds on favorite to win the NBA finals MVP and right now it is not even close. I guess that is more related to the fact that it is a given that the Celtics are going to be playing in the finals. So in essence his odds are enhanced because you are pretty much guaranteed to have a horse in the race. It will be interesting to see what it is if Ant or SGA make the finals.

But if Tatum happens to win, I would imagine the clutch part of the argument would be answered.
 
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nomar

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Lolz, you think Tatum is better than Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi were then.

"Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway." What?!??

Did you just start watching the NBA a couple of years ago?

Kawhi was on a different level when he led Toronto to the title. He was absolutely incredible.

And when D-Wade led Miami past Dallas by himself, that was legendary. He put that team on his back.
 

HuskyHawk

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Lolz, you think Tatum is better than Wade, Dirk, and Kawhi were then.

"Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway." What?!??

Did you just start watching the NBA a couple of years ago?
Kawhi is an incredible player, but as a scorer over his playoff career? He won a finals MVP averaging 15 ppg. Wade’s numbers are below Tatum‘s numbers in the playoffs. It’s early in Tatum’s career, I suppose if he never does anything else, of course not. But at 26 he’s done quite well.
 
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I really don't like the Celtics offensive approach sometimes, just firing up 3s for the hell of it
 

HuskyHawk

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Celtics playing like trash. Weak defense lazy offense and missing open looks.
 
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Kawhi is an incredible player, but as a scorer over his playoff career? He won a finals MVP averaging 15 ppg. Wade’s numbers are below Tatum‘s numbers in the playoffs. It’s early in Tatum’s career, I suppose if he never does anything else, of course not. But at 26 he’s done quite well.
Dirk's run in 2011 he swept the Lakers who had Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Odom. He beat OKC 4-1 who had Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka. He beat the Heat 4-2 who had Lebron, Wade, Bosh. Dirk was unreal in those playoffs and carried a team with no other all-stars over a bunch of other NBA legends/top 50 all-time players. It was one of the best playoff runs ever.

You said "Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway." Will you at least admit that's a ridiculous statement and untrue?

Wade was the leading scorer for the Heat in that losing NBA finals series against the Mavs and outscored Lebron for those playoffs. When Wade beat the Mavericks in the NBA finals back in 2006 Wade averaged 35 ppg.

Kawhi averaged 31 in the playoffs when he led the Raptors to the championship.
 

HuskyWarrior611

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I really don't like the Celtics offensive approach sometimes, just firing up 3s for the hell of it
They’re going to blow this chance with the best roster in the league trying to pay like the Warriors.
 

HuskyHawk

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Dirk's run in 2011 he swept the Lakers who had Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Odom. He beat OKC 4-1 who had Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka. He beat the Heat 4-2 who had Lebron, Wade, Bosh. Dirk was unreal in those playoffs and carried a team with no other all-stars over a bunch of other NBA legends/top 50 all-time players. It was one of the best playoff runs ever.

You said "Tatum is a better playoff scorer and player than Wade, who was never the lead guy anyway." Will you at least admit that's a ridiculous statement and untrue?

Wade was the leading scorer for the Heat in that losing NBA finals series against the Mavs and outscored Lebron for those playoffs. When Wade beat the Mavericks in the NBA finals back in 2006 Wade averaged 35 ppg.

Kawhi averaged 31 in the playoffs when he led the Raptors to the championship.
You’re talking about one specific run for each guy. Dirk’s came when he was 34. Kawhi was incredible that year, but his main contribution before that was on the other side of the ball. Maybe Tatum never has a run like that. Maybe he has four of them. But very few guys led teams to titles in their early 20s. Kawhi and Kobe won titles young, but weren’t the best players on those teams.

The original post said maybe Boston can win but every team that wins has a great “alpha” scorer for clutch moments, and suggested Tatum isn’t that. All I’m saying is, he hasn’t been that, consistently enough anyway, yet. But if they win there’s a good chance he’d have a run like that. Then he would be one of those guys. I then pointed out that most of the great players had also never been that guy at 25-26 years old which you jumped all over. It is way too soon to judge the player, as either capable or not capable of carrying a team to a title.
 
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