OT: NBA Playoffs

[superjohn]

I hate complaining about refs but those last 2 calls in The Bucks/Heat game we’re just wrong.. I guess the right team won so all is well.

They were both terrible but after you let the Bucks tie it, ball don't lie. It is pretty funny that they were letting Giannis tackle guys and then they call him for having his hand on Butler's side way after he shot it.

 

[HitDog]

Also they probably screwed up the play where the Bucks stole the ball after Butler just tossed it. Butler should’ve called time and not thrown the ball but both guys grabbed his arm and a foul should’ve been called.

 

[superjohn]

It's hilarious to me the Rockets are letting OKC take them down to the wire in a game 7. Harden and Westbrook are the biggest fake superstars I can remember, stat monsters during the season but when it matters they shrink.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Lu Dort > Harden

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Also they probably screwed up the play where the Bucks stole the ball after Butler just tossed it. Butler should’ve called time and not thrown the ball but both guys grabbed his arm and a foul should’ve been called.

I also think George Hill had a foot out of bounds with his hand on the ball before Lopez's steal.

I don't think either of the late fouls should have been called, but the one on Butler was particularly ridiculous because the ball was halfway to the basket when the "shooting" foul occurred. How did Giannis' foul affect the shot when the clock showed almost a full second between Butler releasing the ball and the contact?

 

[eebmg]

Lu Dort > Harden

 

[Mr. French]

I also think George Hill had a foot out of bounds with his hand on the ball before Lopez's steal.

I don't think either of the late fouls should have been called, but the one on Butler was particularly ridiculous because the ball was halfway to the basket when the "shooting" foul occurred. How did Giannis' foul affect the shot when the clock showed almost a full second between Butler releasing the ball and the contact?

This is where I stand as well ... you can say both calls weren't the right calls, but the first one can be argued. The second one is just purely a terrible, brutal call. No contact that was made affected the shot in any way. Despite Dragic being straight up, positionally, he also was directly underneath Middleton's path to landing, which is a foul.

 

[superjohn]

This is where I stand as well ... you can say both calls weren't the right calls, but the first one can be argued. The second one is just purely a terrible, brutal call. No contact that was made affected the shot in any way. Despite Dragic being straight up, positionally, he also was directly underneath Middleton's path to landing, which is a foul.

By the rules the call on Dragic was worse, his D was textbook. I would normally hate the Giannis call to end it but it doesn't matter if the shot is away you can't push a player who is in the air on a shot. Bucks never should've been in that position so they have nothing to complain about.

 

[Huskyforlife]

I dont know how anyone can say those weren't fouls. They were blatantly obvious....

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Sorry, I guess i should have been more clear: I don't actually think Lu Dort is better than James Harden.

 

[Mr. French]

By the rules the call on Dragic was worse, his D was textbook. I would normally hate the Giannis call to end it but it doesn't matter if the shot is away you can't push a player who is in the air on a shot. Bucks never should've been in that position so they have nothing to complain about.

You don't really believe that do you? I would vehemently disagree and I think factually and opinion-based, I am correct. That would possibly be true if Giannis pushed him, but he barely breezed his side. The contact simply wasn't enough for a foul call in any circumstance.

The Dragic call, by the rules, is actually not a bad call because as I said (and Steve Javie said on the broadcast) he came up under Middleton as he was shooting and had the slightest push upwards of the body, which didn't allow him to land properly, part of the shooting motion.

If Giannis' play actually pushed him, I'd have no problem with it, so it isn't a rules interpretation that's the problem ... the problem is he barely grazed his jersey after the shot was long gone, and it didn't affect him landing or following through or anything. It was a bad call.

 

[superjohn]

You don't really believe that do you? I would vehemently disagree and I think factually and opinion-based, I am correct. That would possibly be true if Giannis pushed him, but he barely breezed his side. The contact simply wasn't enough for a foul call in any circumstance.

The Dragic call, by the rules, is actually not a bad call because as I said (and Steve Javie said on the broadcast) he came up under Middleton as he was shooting and had the slightest push upwards of the body, which didn't allow him to land properly, part of the shooting motion.

If Giannis' play actually pushed him, I'd have no problem with it, so it isn't a rules interpretation that's the problem ... the problem is he barely grazed his jersey after the shot was long gone, and it didn't affect him landing or following through or anything. It was a bad call.

I really do believe that, you make contact on a shooter and by the rules they can call it every time, it doesn't matter that the ball was released before he was hit. Butler was still in the air when Giannis hit his side. You can argue Dragic didn't give Middleton room to land but I disagree, I think Dragic was entitled to that space and didn't slide under Middleton. I don't like either call being made to decide a game even though they both could technically be made but since they gifted the Bucks with the non-foul call which caused Butler's turnover and gifted Middleton with 3 ft's I find it funny anyone would complain about the Giannis call being made. Ball don't lie, the right team won.

 

[Mr. French]

I really do believe that, you make contact on a shooter and by the rules they can call it every time, it doesn't matter that the ball was released before he was hit. Butler was still in the air when Giannis hit his side. You can argue Dragic didn't give Middleton room to land but I disagree, I think Dragic was entitled to that space and didn't slide under Middleton. I don't like either call being made to decide a game even though they both could technically be made but since they gifted the Bucks with the non-foul call which caused Butler's turnover and gifted Middleton with 3 ft's I find it funny anyone would complain about the Giannis call being made. Ball don't lie, the right team won.
View attachment 58382

I agree that the "right" team won, although the team that blows a 6 point lead in 18 seconds maybe isn't the definition of the "right" team, but I understand that point - they led most of the game.

That picture is solid but so misleading, and I think you are aware of that if you watched it in regular time/speed multiple times. Playing and watching basketball one's whole life, you can absolutely tell that there was no real contact. I'd say at most he tapped his side, I'd bet he barely got deeper than his jersey.

It may have LOOKED like he did, as it does in that picture, but it was absolutely not a good call. I think an NBA ref has to be able to see that better in real time, but I think it was in the back of their mind that they just gave the Bucks a foul call, and there were what, 6 other such calls in that game prior? I didn't see the whole game but I know Doris was talking about how many jump shot fouls were called. It was a bad make up call, I'd much rather have seen them let it get to OT and then the "ball don't lie" mantra actually fits.

I like the opposing viewpoints, but I gotta be honest I'm shocked you can watch that multiple times in real time and think Butler got touched enough for a foul. To me, it was barely a brush as he went to contest, and he even pulled away. You can see Butler's body wasn't affected in any way, it just wasn't enough contact to warrant a call.

 

[huskiesNhoos]

I took more issue at the end of the Hou/OKC game where guys were launching themselves backwards in attempts to draw charges in incredibly obvious no-call situations (I'm looking at you Harden and CP3)



around 10:32 in starts right after CP3 flops, then you get westbrook and harden following suit in quick succession

 

[Mr. French]

By the way, I'm only complaining about the second call because it's so clearly obvious to me that was much worse than the first one ... and Butler did not get fouled when he turned it over ... I don't like either call, but making an awful call after a questionable call with the game tied and zeros on the clock is not how to ref.

I don't care about either team, I root for the Celtics because of Kemba, and I would bet money the Bucks will make a solid run here, so it has nothing to do with bias in any way. I love Butler.

 

[superjohn]

I agree that the "right" team won, although the team that blows a 6 point lead in 18 seconds maybe isn't the definition of the "right" team, but I understand that point - they led most of the game.

That picture is solid but so misleading, and I think you are aware of that if you watched it in regular time/speed multiple times. Playing and watching basketball one's whole life, you can absolutely tell that there was no real contact. I'd say at most he tapped his side, I'd bet he barely got deeper than his jersey.

It may have LOOKED like he did, as it does in that picture, but it was absolutely not a good call. I think an NBA ref has to be able to see that better in real time, but I think it was in the back of their mind that they just gave the Bucks a foul call, and there were what, 6 other such calls in that game prior? I didn't see the whole game but I know Doris was talking about how many jump shot fouls were called. It was a bad make up call, I'd much rather have seen them let it get to OT and then the "ball don't lie" mantra actually fits.

I like the opposing viewpoints, but I gotta be honest I'm shocked you can watch that multiple times in real time and think Butler got touched enough for a foul. To me, it was barely a brush as he went to contest, and he even pulled away. You can see Butler's body wasn't affected in any way, it just wasn't enough contact to warrant a call.

He couldn't hold up and made contact with a shooter in the air, by rule the correct call was made and especially since you just called the same thing on the other end. I think there was something like 6 or 7 of these same calls throughout the game. If you didn't call it tight and let them play the whole game and then decided to call this a foul I would have a problem but considering they just called the same thing on the other team 5 seconds before and called it six other times there should be no beef. The one thing I always want to have from the refs is consistency and as much as I don't like calling every ticky tack call they were consistent.

I don't know why you're so hungup on how hard he was hit and keep saying he may have brushed his jersey. He clearly couldn't hold up his momentum and hit into his side. Did he hit him hard, no but that doesn't matter.

 

[superjohn]

By the way, I'm only complaining about the second call because it's so clearly obvious to me that was much worse than the first one ... and Butler did not get fouled when he turned it over ... I don't like either call, but making an awful call after a questionable call with the game tied and zeros on the clock is not how to ref.

I don't care about either team, I root for the Celtics because of Kemba, and I would bet money the Bucks will make a solid run here, so it has nothing to do with bias in any way. I love Butler.

On the Butler turnover I saw what could have been a foul on George Hill, George Hill then touching the ball while he was out of bounds and Butler was inbounds, then a Butler travel, and then Butler being out of bounds before he threw it to Lopez for the layup.

 

[Mr. French]

He couldn't hold up and made contact with a shooter in the air, by rule the correct call was made and especially since you just called the same thing on the other end. I think there was something like 6 or 7 of these same calls throughout the game. If you didn't call it tight and let them play the whole game and then decided to call this a foul I would have a problem but considering they just called the same thing on the other team 5 seconds before and called it six other times there should be no beef. The one thing I always want to have from the refs is consistency and as much as I don't like calling every ticky tack call they were consistent.

I don't know why you're so hungup on how hard he was hit and keep saying he may have brushed his jersey. He clearly couldn't hold up his momentum and hit into his side. Did he hit him hard, no but that doesn't matter.

Well, we agree to disagree. I'm hung up on how hard he was hit because I don't think he was "hit" at all I think he was lightly touched on his side, which isn't a foul on any planet. So we disagree. Neither of us were there, so we both only can go by what we saw on video and years of playing and watching (in my case, no clue your experience) knowing what a bump that is a legitimate foul would have looked like.

No need to keep going into detail, you obviously think he was hit enough to be called a foul, I don't. That's the difference. The first one, we're debating how strictly to interpret Dragic clearly contacting the shooter. I don't think that Butler shot was more than a graze which is NOT enough contact for a foul, but if the ref THINKS he hit him harder, as you do, then you call it. You don't get the distinction?

I'm saying there literally was not a foul, so there's no argument if you think what I think. I'm not interpreting how the ref calls it tight, I'm saying a brush of the shooter's side with your hand is not enough contact to be a foul, but if the ref thought he hit him harder based on his angle, he calls it.

 

[Mr. French]

Fast forward to about 2 minutes and watch the multiple slow motion angles, and how Giannis' arm is moving and then pulls back, and tell me there is contact beyond a slight graze that wouldn't get called at any level unless the ref THOUGHT they saw a "push."

Actual contact isn't the standard for a foul, it's illegal contact that affects the offensive player. I'm not seeing how any objective (or just non-argumentative) person can see that and say there is enough contact to warrant a foul.

 

[gtcam]

Giannis gets every call as he goes to the hoop with the ball on offense - nearly 1 out of 4 aren't fouls at all but merely "brushed by" touching. Just as many claim he did on that last play.
Do I think that it was a foul on that last play? 1 out 4 times it may be called so that evens everything out. He was stupid to even touch the shooter at all - no need
On the call that the Bucks received in the prior possession - again, this is one called probably once in a blue moon - did the defender move slightly into the shooter? barely noticeable but it didn't have an effect on the shot, only the landing. Also, the shooter did jump toward the defender with the shot.
The ref who made both calls probably wished he swallowed the whistle in hind sight.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think the Bucks are in big trouble as a franchise. This team is probably not capable of winning a championship as constituted. Bledsoe is a full blown choker, and Middleton is better, but still makes a lot of mistakes at crunch time. Lopez and Hill have played great, but they are not good enough to carry a team to a championship by themselves. The bench has good stats because Budenholzer plays them a lot of minutes, but none of them are standouts. Wes Matthews is killing the team because he is simply not good enough to play 30 minutes, but there is no one else to put out there.

Finally, Giannis is just not a clutch player. He cost his team a game last night helping out on a perimeter shot. What was he doing there? Bledsoe had Butler defended, so there was no reason for Giannis to leave his feet in help defense. Giannis choked.

I don't think this team can win a championship, and I think Giannis' agents are going to reach the same conclusion. I don't think he re-signs with the Bucks in the offseason if the Bucks lose this round, and that will start a feeding frenzy for Giannis for next season that will be incredibly distracting. I can not remember the last time a single franchise had as much on the line for a second round Game 3 as the Bucks do on Saturday's game. They could become the Cleveland Cavaliers in 2 seasons if they lose this playoff series.


I thought the Oklahoma City/Houston series was just a great series between two evenly matched teams. Fun to watch.

 

[auror]

"Giannis didn't foul a guy but they called him for a foul as a makeup call shows that Giannis isn't a clutch player."

Can't believe I don't have to pay for this entertainment.

 

[Mr. French]

Considering he's a 2 time MVP and won DPOY in the same season as MVP and he's early 20s with tons of skill left to develop, I'm not quite on the classic "too quick to call him not clutch" train that seems abundant in today's world.

Literally every great player that doesn't win from year to year gets called "not clutch" it's quite comical.

 

[Ratso]

kemba & co are on

 

[superjohn]

Considering he's a 2 time MVP and won DPOY in the same season as MVP and he's early 20s with tons of skill left to develop, I'm not quite on the classic "too quick to call him not clutch" train that seems abundant in today's world.

Literally every great player that doesn't win from year to year gets called "not clutch" it's quite comical.

I wouldn't call him "not clutch" but for a guy who will have 2 MVP's and 1 DPOY before the age of 26 I watch him and there's just something missing. He's a stat monster and great player but playoffs roll around and build a wall, so much of his game is still just based on being freakier than everyone else. He seems like a guy who needs to be the #1 with the ball in his hands and I'm taking Luka, LeBron, Kawhi, and Steph over him every time (age related of course.)

Harden is the other stat monster I can never get behind, Westbrook as well but I don't think anyone puts him in that top tier anymore. I like Giannis more than Harden but there's still something missing.