NBA Playoffs

[superjohn]

It is a necessary distinction. Every team has a different cap outlook and roster makeup and that is also a factor. My opinion is that a large majority of teams would prefer Klay over JB, even considering age and contract. I wouldn't blink unless I was capped out with a cheap owner.

These Celtics are going to rewrite history. Jaylen Brown better than Klay Thompson, Tatum is going to become Durant, add that to Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, and whatever else you have and look out. With Stevens coaching that group you will probably have the greatest dynasty of all time.

 

[Dogdeacon]

by the same logic shouldn't you trade him for KAT since KAT is on his rookie deal?

I mean there's a strong argument you could make for any of about 5 guys.

And Aldridge rated very highly at C this year as well.

KAT and Embiid are different. I wonder if KAT will ever figure it out defensively. Because if he does, he could be in the Hakeem territory.

One factor with KAT is playing for Thibs, initially we assumed that meant he'd learn defense, but could be that overriding factor is that Towns conserves energy b/c he's on the court for 37 minutes a night (vs Embiid's 30). Of course Davis plays 36mpg, so it is possible that you can play defense and score - just have to be in great shape which neither Embiid or Towns are.
I'd bet on Embiid being more motivated to get there and dominate, but on same token I'd bet on Towns' career 'counting stats' to ultimately be higher because he's less likely to be injured and will play more provided Thibs doesn't burn him to the ground like Yoakim Noah & Derek Rose.

 

[auror]

by the same logic shouldn't you trade him for KAT since KAT is on his rookie deal?

I would definitely trade Embiid for KAT.

KAT is obviously much worse defensively, but he has plenty of potential there (he was excellent on D in college).

He is a tremendous offensive player and rebounder already at 22. He's a 54/42/86 guy already. He was 3rd in offensive win shares this year, 6th in per 48 overall (taking into account Thibs minutes). He's going to win MVP within the next 5 years.

He also has significantly less injury risk. Plus 2 years younger and on rookie deal for another year.

 

[the Q]

I would definitely trade Embiid for KAT.

KAT is obviously much worse defensively, but he has plenty of potential there (he was excellent on D in college).

He is a tremendous offensive player and rebounder already at 22. He's a 54/42/86 guy already. He was 3rd in offensive win shares this year, 6th in per 48 overall (taking into account Thibs minutes). He's going to win MVP within the next 5 years.

He also has significantly less injury risk. Plus 2 years younger and on rookie deal for another year.

I agree. If the light ever goes on defensively for KAT.....i'm not sure what the right word would be for him....

 

[Walker11]

KAT is far more physically limited than the casual Gamecast fan realizes and this affects his long term defensive potential. He should not be as bad as he is, sure, but he is never going to be a stud defender, even if things click mentally.

 

[auror]

KAT is far more physically limited than the casual Gamecast fan realizes and this affects his long term defensive potential. He should not be as bad as he is, sure, but he is never going to be a stud defender, even if things click mentally.

He's 6'11 with a 7'3" wingspan with a 34"+ max vert. He can be an adequate defender at the least.

 

[Walker11]

He's 6'11 with a 7'3" wingspan with a 34"+ max vert. He can be an adequate defender at the least.

He also moves with the fluidity of a horse trying to learn to walk. I agree that he should be adequate.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I wouldn't trade Jaylen for Klay straight up, but if I were picking teams for a game tomorrow I'd take Klay before him.

Agreed. I wasn't arguing that. I don't think the gap is all that wide though, given Brown's defense. I was responding to a comment that nobody for Boston but Kyrie could start for GS over the next 3 years. I think that's just wrong. Three years is a long time in the NBA.

 

[Walker11]

Agreed. I wasn't arguing that. I don't think the gap is all that wide though, given Brown's defense. I was responding to a comment that nobody for Boston but Kyrie could start for GS over the next 3 years. I think that's just wrong. Three years is a long time in the NBA.

With the enormous gulf between their shooting talents, how good does Brown need to be on defense to compensate? Thompson is already an All League defender and is firmly in the middle of his prime. The only way I can imagine Brown being a better player than Thompson is if he is by far and away the best defensive player in the league, and that is not something I see occurring.

 

[superjohn]

Agreed. I wasn't arguing that. I don't think the gap is all that wide though, given Brown's defense. I was responding to a comment that nobody for Boston but Kyrie could start for GS over the next 3 years. I think that's just wrong. Three years is a long time in the NBA.

You did say the assumption that Klay is better than Jaylen Brown right now is a stretch.

 

[champs99and04]

Overall I pretty much agree other than tap the breaks way before LeBron. You'd have to go back in time to Patrick Ewing or David Robinson or best comps Ralph Sampson & Bill Walton to identify big men that changed the game/dominated the league. Its needs to be latter two not because their games are similar, but b/c the qualifier on if healthy & stamina is so important. Embiid was the best player on the floor vs. Celtics and yet his team consistently failed in crunch time. This is a major current flaw and addressing his overall fitness & game fitness are both heavily dependent on staying healthy & playing minutes. Maybe the Fultz collision was a fluke that exacerbated the game stamina, or maybe Embiid is Glass Joe. I hope he stay healthy for an extended period and we get to see what he can do and I expect that will occur with the Sixers current team + an interesting draft pick.

Celts - Cavs series is so weird with Jekyll & Hyde from both teams. My ultimate theory on the series also rests in stamina and I think after 82 games LeBron cannot bring the necessary thunder for 5 straight every other nights. So now question is did he conserve enough last night to bring it Friday and Sunday? I think the Celtics have to go for it in Cleveland like they did last night & keep the rotation at 7. LeBron will absolutely have the adrenaline to be superman in a game 7, but they have to push him and try to squeak one out Friday and if not make certain it takes a herculean effort to beat them.

Somewhat hopeful that they have a chance Friday given how badly they shot last night and still won. Then again the bad overall shooting of 36.5% is very misleading as their lead was due to the early hot 3 point shooting and I'm sure their effective FG% was better than 50% in first half and over 50 thru building the insurmountable 20 point lead. They aren't making that many 3's in a first half on the road & will need to stop the trend of missing so many bunnies.

My reason for invoking LeBron is mostly subjective. He obviously plays a different position than LeBron, and more importantly, his presence stands to re-route the trajectory LeBron left in his wake rather than continue it. He's the rare player who can small ball proof the league. I'm not sure KAT can do that.

But there is a certain cackling that I imagine basketball degenerates do when they watch Embiid play that can't really be translated to anything other then "wow, everybody is screwed if he figures this out." You saw it with Shaq, you saw it with LeBron. I'm not sure anybody else this side of the millennium reached that level. Garnett, Durant, and Davis were physical freaks in their own right, but they were jump shooters first. LeBron's inclination was never to bully people; he wanted to beat you with his brain, and he usually did. That's why he's LeBron - Shaq's physique and Magic's acumen rolled into one. Even if I see another player as good, I don't think I'll ever see one with that combination of gifts. He deserves consideration as the greatest athlete of all-time even if people agree Jordan was the better basketball player.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You did say the assumption that Klay is better than Jaylen Brown right now is a stretch.

No, I said that the assumption that he was much better was a stretch. He's better right now. But I think we overrate the talent gap among a lot of players in the league. Situations, how they are used, who they play with, that drives a lot of their success. Curry and Klay each make the other better and more difficult to defend. and adding Durant just makes it even more difficult.

Isaiah Thomas was unwanted until he got to Boston. Rondo was a repeat All Star, now he's nothing really. I suspect that there are many guys playing small roles or sitting on benches who are being improperly utilized.

 

[superjohn]

No, I said that the assumption that he was much better was a stretch. He's better right now. But I think we overrate the talent gap among a lot of players in the league. Situations, how they are used, who they play with, that drives a lot of their success. Curry and Klay each make the other better and more difficult to defend. and adding Durant just makes it even more difficult.

Isaiah Thomas was unwanted until he got to Boston. Rondo was a repeat All Star, now he's nothing really. I suspect that there are many guys playing small roles or sitting on benches who are being improperly utilized.

I quoted you word for word...

What does this mean? Are you talking about Kyrie? I think the assumption that Klay Thompson is better than Jaylen Brown, even right now, is a stretch. The belief that he will remain so for the next couple of years, when he's 28 years old, is likely straight up wrong. I'd take Brown over him over the next three years. If GS loses Durant, then who do they have at that spot who is better than Tatum? You think Looney is better than Al?

Curry and Green are unique talents, especially since Green is really their point forward. Durant is an incredible talent. But I think the most critical aspect of the success GS has is in the way they play as a team, not because their players are somehow all better than those on other teams. Green could have been drafted by the Knicks and never gotten off the bench if they didn't understand how to use him.

I really hope the Celtics get to the finals, so we get a sneak preview, understanding that Boston is way under-manned.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I quoted you word for word...

Then I concede your point

 

[MadDogRevival]

I suspect that there are many guys playing small roles or sitting on benches who are being improperly utilized.

This probably describes more than half of the male population of America.

 

[champs99and04]

Tonight's game is really important. I know that might sound obvious, but there are the countless games during an NBA season that produce overreactions and hot takes and then there are the rare games like this where the grandiose analysis feels warranted. You have to dig through a lot of monotonous slosh as an NBA fan to arrive to the place where six of the best players in the world square off in a best-of-3 series to essentially win the title.

Make no mistake that winning this series is imperative to the (another trigger word upcoming) legacy of this Warriors team. Yeah, they've been to the finals three years in a row. Yeah, they've won two of them. Not good enough for me, not when the first of the three titles required six games against Matthew Dellavedova and not when the second took shamelessly prying the second best player in the world.

The Rockets are damn good, but there is no excuse for Golden State to lose this series, even with Thompson hobbled and Iguodala possibly out. It's a team that goes 6.5 deep with Gerald Green being the half and Trevor Ariza and P.J. Tucker being the fourth and fifth. I don't care if it's an iso slugfest or a drive-and-kick shootout, the Warriors should win. You acquired Durant to win these exact games. In game four, he didn't get it done and it looked like a lot of the same flaws we saw in OKC were exposed. If Harden outpaces him in iso situations again tonight, despite Durant drawing the more liberal switch and the lighter workload, then what does that say? To me, it would be a damning blow to KD's case as a top ten all-time player.

 

[intlzncster]

With the enormous gulf between their shooting talents, how good does Brown need to be on defense to compensate? Thompson is already an All League defender and is firmly in the middle of his prime. The only way I can imagine Brown being a better player than Thompson is if he is by far and away the best defensive player in the league, and that is not something I see occurring.

That's what I thought too. I don't think it's a tight race atm. And I love Jaylen. Obviously, at 7 years younger, I'm taking him over the long term. But from ages 28-30, I expect Klay to be better...he's athletic enough, but his game doesn't rely on elite athleticism to dominate.

I also think Klay is a more complete player than he's shown, but plays his role for Golden State as it is.

 

[intlzncster]

Durant & Klay both are free agents after next season, very unlikely the Warriors as currently constructed are together past that. Draymond & Iggy expire the following year when absolutely their roster will change. So even if the Warriors break the bank for both Durant (making 11MM less than Steph!) & Klay (making 19MM less than Steph!!) which I'm not even sure is possible under the rules, its over in at most 2 seasons

Klay is already making noise about taking a paycut to keep the band together.

 

[intlzncster]

What does this mean? Are you talking about Kyrie? I think the assumption that Klay Thompson is better than Jaylen Brown, even right now, is a stretch. The belief that he will remain so for the next couple of years, when he's 28 years old, is likely straight up wrong. I'd take Brown over him over the next three years. If GS loses Durant, then who do they have at that spot who is better than Tatum? You think Looney is better than Al?

Curry and Green are unique talents, especially since Green is really their point forward. Durant is an incredible talent. But I think the most critical aspect of the success GS has is in the way they play as a team, not because their players are somehow all better than those on other teams. Green could have been drafted by the Knicks and never gotten off the bench if they didn't understand how to use him.

I really hope the Celtics get to the finals, so we get a sneak preview, understanding that Boston is way under-manned.

Responded to this tangentially above, but why are you assuming Durant is going to leave? I don't see it. I see him and Klay (who's rumored to be willing to take a pay cut) working together to keep that club together.

My point about starting was more about positions than anything. Nobody on the planet is starting over Durant, except LeBron if you had to. Nobody on the Celtics could start over Green, because as you say, he's unique. Jaylen is not starting over Klay, even though you clearly like him. He's not remotely the shooter, he's not a better defender at this point.

The controversial statement is that idk if Kyrie would start! You really gonna put him in over Curry? I wouldn't. And he doesn't add what Klay adds at the two.

Again, my point was about mixture and fit of players.

Big Al is the one guy who would start at one of the post positions.

jmo

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Not to sound too stupid but these NBA playoffs just feel scripted at this point. Obviously you can’t script the ball going in but you can script effort. How the hell do the Cavs and Celtics just take turns blowing each other out? The Warriors are going to make quick work of the Rockets and all of a sudden Iguodala is out? Just feels like they’re trying to maximize ratings.

 

[Yardigan]

Not to sound too stupid but these NBA playoffs just feel scripted at this point. Obviously you can’t script the ball going in but you can script effort. How the hell do the Cavs and Celtics just take turns blowing each other out? The Warriors are going to make quick work of the Rockets and all of a sudden Iguodala is out? Just feels like they’re trying to maximize ratings.

...not-so-secret scam to raise that cap....

 

[superjohn]

Not to sound too stupid but these NBA playoffs just feel scripted at this point. Obviously you can’t script the ball going in but you can script effort. How the hell do the Cavs and Celtics just take turns blowing each other out? The Warriors are going to make quick work of the Rockets and all of a sudden Iguodala is out? Just feels like they’re trying to maximize ratings.

These playoffs have been horrendous, this coming from somebody who has loved the NBA since he was a little kid.

 

[Walker11]

Not to sound too stupid but these NBA playoffs just feel scripted at this point. Obviously you can’t script the ball going in but you can script effort. How the hell do the Cavs and Celtics just take turns blowing each other out? The Warriors are going to make quick work of the Rockets and all of a sudden Iguodala is out? Just feels like they’re trying to maximize ratings.

Okay, if you are attempting to maximize ratings, wouldn't you prefer having watchable games? The playoffs have sucked. I haven't lasted past halftime for any of these blowouts, and I imagine I am not alone.

 

[Yardigan]

Okay, if you are attempting to maximize ratings, wouldn't you prefer having watchable games? The playoffs have sucked. I haven't lasted past halftime for any of these blowouts, and I imagine I am not alone.

in terms of the most important thing to the lig - cash flow... and to the players - salary cap .... "quality" of games is far secondary to "quantity" of games...

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Okay, if you are attempting to maximize ratings, wouldn't you prefer having watchable games? The playoffs have sucked. I haven't lasted past halftime for any of these blowouts, and I imagine I am not alone.

People tune in for OMG GAME 7!!!!!! And the more games=more money.