NBA Playoffs

[Yardigan]

I was in PA last week and all of their sports talk jocks had Philly in the Finals...not the conference finals...the Finals. The only debate was whether they could actually win the finals this year, or, if it was more realistic for them to win it next year...but no question, they were going to be in the Finals this year. Rough series for Simmons....pretty sure if it had gone to 2OT, he would have thrown it away again...

 

[Scoe]

Philly might as well get that boat started because their going fishing.

 

[G0UCONN]

Switch coaches and Sixers are winning the series.

Celtics are tough in every way. Winning players. Smart and Horford epitome of it.

 

[UconnU]

Maybe the 76ers should hire Jay Wright.

That’s a job he actually may take. Wouldn’t have to move, has a stable of young talent.

 

[Dogdeacon]

The answer to their issues is named Markelle Fultz. He's already on the roster.

Fultz is the epitome or manifestation of their problems. Maybe solution if they analyzed the process of making that trade, drafting Fultz & the screwups that followed including their organizational bias to put guys on shelf for a year. Understanding at least 80% of nba teams would take their roster/org in a nanosecond.

Embid is gassed at end of games (better than being injured, but also product of being babied) while Simmons is both inexperienced and in his own head.

Probably this was just a year ahead of schedule for Sixers and they are paying their playoff dues. Though given how the next few years project being unable to beat Celtics is problematic.

 

[4in16]

How that shot went in for LeBron is insane. Guy is unreal.

 

[champs99and04]

The answer to their issues is named Markelle Fultz. He's already on the roster.

You think? I'm far from ready to give up on him, but the fact that shooting is his weakness worries me when the same can be said about Simmons and Embiid. That he can't crack the rotation with some of the bums the Sixers have trotted out there (I know Belinelli hit the big shot to send the game to overtime, but he's an infuriating player) concerns me as well. If he can't give you a 5-10 minute energy infusion now then I'm not sure what that says about his long-term prospects.

I don't want to over-react to one series, but if I'm Philly I'm making Simmons available this summer. A Simmons for Kawhi deal makes some sense if the Spurs are hell-bent on ending that relationship. I know Stephen A. floated the possibility of an Irving for Kawhi trade last night which would also be interesting.

 

[champs99and04]

Klay's never had to be a #1 option, but there's no way JJ could ever do something like:



Also, Klay is a fantastic defender.

The comparison between them is silly.

This doesn't really address anything I said.

 

[Robertelamin]

Kawhi makes something like 3 times as much as Simmons though. Don’t the contracts have to come close to the same?

 

[MadDogRevival]

LeBron.
I think the guy I'm seeing play this year is the best version of LBJ yet. His assortment of shots is nuts. Guy hit the fadiest fadeaway I've ever seen tonight. Dude faded like 6' back. I was yelling, "noooo" because I thought it was such a poor shot.
And he's becoming more clutch with age. He's put his team-first-pass mode on hold for the final shots and is going into killer mode. Barely missed a shot for the win in game 1 regulation, IIRC.
Can't wait to see what he does next year on the next team.

 

[KemBaller]

I don't want to over-react to one series, but if I'm Philly I'm making Simmons available this summer.

Alright Timmy, that's enough hot takes for you today.

 

[tzznandrew]

This doesn't really address anything I said.

But still - Klay is unanimously considered one of the greatest shooters of all-time and J.J. is basically giving you 90% of that production offensively.

My position is that you are overrating raw numbers stripped of context in a comparison between a good but limited offensive player and a very good offensive player. One guy pretty much just catches and shoots, and the other can create for himself. It's like comparing mid-20s Ray Allen to Celtics Era Ray Allen. Both valuable offensive players, but the latter is significantly better than the former.

 

[superjohn]

My position is that you are overrating raw numbers stripped of context in a comparison between a good but limited offensive player and a very good offensive player. One guy pretty much just catches and shoots, and the other can create for himself. It's like comparing mid-20s Ray Allen to Celtics Era Ray Allen. Both valuable offensive players, but the latter is significantly better than the former.

It's worse than that, Klay and Redick should never be put in the same sentence.

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

If you tell me Kobe is better than Lebron I'm going to automatically assume you don't know basketball and cease talking to you about it. And no more rings doesn't make him the better player

 

[Robertelamin]

@kobe is a better poster than LeBron.

 

[husky429]

@kobe is a better poster than LeBron.

Lol that's cute.

 

[champs99and04]

My position is that you are overrating raw numbers stripped of context in a comparison between a good but limited offensive player and a very good offensive player. One guy pretty much just catches and shoots, and the other can create for himself. It's like comparing mid-20s Ray Allen to Celtics Era Ray Allen. Both valuable offensive players, but the latter is significantly better than the former.

Do you have anything to back this up? Serious question. I would not be surprised to learn that Klay performs better as a creator, but to me it's unfair to reduce Redick to a guy who "pretty much just catches and shoots" when he's often Philly's first option late in games. I would say the same about Boston era Ray Allen or Chicago era Ben Gordon. There is a crucial distinction to be made between guys who catch and shoot and guys who shoot so well they don't need their feet set, their shoulders squared to the basket, or more than an inch and a split second to pull the trigger. That basically is the definition of creating offense.

My position is that Redick has given you 90% of the production offensively that Klay has over the last five seasons. That's not an opinion it's a fact. I can't begin to imagine what other context you are looking for when I've posted both how many shots they make and how many they take. It isn't as if I'm ranking pitchers by their win totals.

In fairness to your reaction to what I have said, it can be difficult to determine how well numbers and skill sets - even when adjusted for efficiency and the like - translate across different situations. I don't think anybody believes J.J. is capable of putting in 41 on the road in game six of the WCF against a super-human defense. Klay is taller, more athletic, and outright more talented. He is going to hit peaks that J.J. cannot, without even considering the other end of the floor. This isn't the time for the Klay backers to come out because he has few fans bigger than me.

But as somebody who has watched as many Warrior games as me, I would be surprised to learn that Klay creates for himself. The primary creators for that time are Steph, Draymond, and now KD. Hell, Iguodola and even Livingston need the ball in their hands more. That's the whole Klay mystique. Wasn't there a big deal made just this past season about how he scored like 40 points in a game while only dribbling 17 times? If you were drafting a poor man's Klay Thompson you would name him J.J. Redick. And if the two had swapped sides this season or any other season I am not convinced that the offensive efficiency of their respective teams would change much.

 

[champs99and04]

Alright Timmy, that's enough hot takes for you today.

Would it be less of a hot take to say you don't win in today's NBA with primary ball-handlers who can't make a shot outside of five feet?

 

[superjohn]

Do you have anything to back this up? Serious question. I would not be surprised to learn that Klay performs better as a creator, but to me it's unfair to reduce Redick to a guy who "pretty much just catches and shoots" when he's often Philly's first option late in games. I would say the same about Boston era Ray Allen or Chicago era Ben Gordon. There is a crucial distinction to be made between guys who catch and shoot and guys who shoot so well they don't need their feet set, their shoulders squared to the basket, or more than an inch and a split second to pull the trigger. That basically is the definition of creating offense.

My position is that Redick has given you 90% of the production offensively that Klay has over the last five seasons. That's not an opinion it's a fact. I can't begin to imagine what other context you are looking for when I've posted both how many shots they make and how many they take. It isn't as if I'm ranking pitchers by their win totals.

In fairness to your reaction to what I have said, it can be difficult to determine how well numbers and skill sets - even when adjusted for efficiency and the like - translate across different situations. I don't think anybody believes J.J. is capable of putting in 41 on the road in game six of the WCF against a super-human defense. Klay is taller, more athletic, and outright more talented. He is going to hit peaks that J.J. cannot, without even considering the other end of the floor. This isn't the time for the Klay backers to come out because he has few fans bigger than me.

But as somebody who has watched as many Warrior games as me, I would be surprised to learn that Klay creates for himself. The primary creators for that time are Steph, Draymond, and now KD. Hell, Iguodola and even Livingston need the ball in their hands more. That's the whole Klay mystique. Wasn't there a big deal made just this past season about how he scored like 40 points in a game while only dribbling 17 times? If you were drafting a poor man's Klay Thompson you would name him J.J. Redick. And if the two had swapped sides this season or any other season I am not convinced that the offensive efficiency of their respective teams would change much.

Dude, staaaahp.

 

[tzznandrew]

Do you have anything to back this up? Serious question. I would not be surprised to learn that Klay performs better as a creator, but to me it's unfair to reduce Redick to a guy who "pretty much just catches and shoots" when he's often Philly's first option late in games. I would say the same about Boston era Ray Allen or Chicago era Ben Gordon. There is a crucial distinction to be made between guys who catch and shoot and guys who shoot so well they don't need their feet set, their shoulders squared to the basket, or more than an inch and a split second to pull the trigger. That basically is the definition of creating offense.

My position is that Redick has given you 90% of the production offensively that Klay has over the last five seasons. That's not an opinion it's a fact. I can't begin to imagine what other context you are looking for when I've posted both how many shots they make and how many they take. It isn't as if I'm ranking pitchers by their win totals.

In fairness to your reaction to what I have said, it can be difficult to determine how well numbers and skill sets - even when adjusted for efficiency and the like - translate across different situations. I don't think anybody believes J.J. is capable of putting in 41 on the road in game six of the WCF against a super-human defense. Klay is taller, more athletic, and outright more talented. He is going to hit peaks that J.J. cannot, without even considering the other end of the floor. This isn't the time for the Klay backers to come out because he has few fans bigger than me.

But as somebody who has watched as many Warrior games as me, I would be surprised to learn that Klay creates for himself. The primary creators for that time are Steph, Draymond, and now KD. Hell, Iguodola and even Livingston need the ball in their hands more. That's the whole Klay mystique. Wasn't there a big deal made just this past season about how he scored like 40 points in a game while only dribbling 17 times? If you were drafting a poor man's Klay Thompson you would name him J.J. Redick. And if the two had swapped sides this season or any other season I am not convinced that the offensive efficiency of their respective teams would change much.

He's got Dray and Steph and KD to create. But he can and has created points for himself in ways JJ never could. Again, look at the years where KD wasn't there. He doesn't have to do it, but he has. He's super efficient, but that doesn't mean he can't create for himself. Dude has developed post moves.

The bolded part is also a "fact," if you change it to per 36 minutes.

Last 4 years

Klay: 21.6 ppg, 2.4 apg, 3.2 rpg on 47/43/87 splits
JJ: 16.2 ppg, 1.9 apg, 2.2 rpg on 46/44/90 splits

If you're looking at actual production, JJ gives you 75% of Klay's scoring, 80% of his assists, and 68% of his rebounds.

There's a reason he plays fewer minutes than Klay.

 

[KemBaller]

Would it be less of a hot take to say you don't win in today's NBA with primary ball-handlers who can't make a shot outside of five feet?

First off, let me congratulate you on what might be the least wordy and needlessly long post you've ever made ok here...

That being said, you're right. The last 3 years have proved that, in today's NBA, you can't win without having your primary ball handlers be great shooters - wait, what's this? Draymond Green has been one of the primary ball handlers for the team that's won 2 of the last 3 titles? And he's not a knockdown shooter? Hmm, could it be that stockpiling unique, generational talent probably trumps "you can't win in 'today's NBA' with primary ball handlers that can't shoot"?

 

[champs99and04]

He's got Dray and Steph and KD to create. But he can and has created points for himself in ways JJ never could. Again, look at the years where KD wasn't there. He doesn't have to do it, but he has. He's super efficient, but that doesn't mean he can't create for himself. Dude has developed post moves.

The bolded part is also a "fact," if you change it to per 36 minutes.

Last 4 years

Klay: 21.6 ppg, 2.4 apg, 3.2 rpg on 47/43/87 splits
JJ: 16.2 ppg, 1.9 apg, 2.2 rpg on 46/44/90 splits

If you're looking at actual production, JJ gives you 75% of Klay's scoring, 80% of his assists, and 68% of his rebounds.

There's a reason he plays fewer minutes than Klay.

I have acknowledged that adjusting for production on a per minute basis tends to favor the inferior player. I also think it goes without saying that Redick isn't going to be as productive as Klay when he isn't playing. To the extent that he plays less minutes than Klay is a function of both his defense and his age, neither of which have anything to do with the topic at hand.

It's possible that Klay would grow his game in an expanded role. We can't know that because we haven't seen it. Players who create their own offense typically average more than two assists and get to the line more than twice per game. There is a reason his career 2P% is identical to Redick's and there is a reason the Cavs won the title two years ago. Golden State's offense features a lot of built in movement that plays to Klay's strengths. He shouldn't be penalized for that and neither should Redick.

 

[superjohn]

I have acknowledged that adjusting for production on a per minute basis tends to favor the inferior player. I also think it goes without saying that Redick isn't going to be as productive as Klay when he isn't playing. To the extent that he plays less minutes than Klay is a function of both his defense and his age, neither of which have anything to do with the topic at hand.

It's possible that Klay would grow his game in an expanded role. We can't know that because we haven't seen it. Players who create their own offense typically average more than two assists and get to the line more than twice per game. There is a reason his career 2P% is identical to Redick's and there is a reason the Cavs won the title two years ago. Golden State's offense features a lot of built in movement that plays to Klay's strengths. He shouldn't be penalized for that and neither should Redick.

Hard to believe this is the hill you chose to die on. You might as well compare Kelly Olynyk to Tim Duncan while you're at it.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Hard to believe this is the hill you chose to die on. You might as well compare Kelly Olynyk to Tim Duncan while you're at it.

Can we go back to that thing where if he's Philly he's putting Simmons on the block this summer?

 

[navery12]

Kawhi makes something like 3 times as much as Simmons though. Don’t the contracts have to come close to the same?

It's a moot point because there's 0 chance Philly is moving Ben Simmons this summer. But Philly has a ton of cap space so contracts wouldn't have to be similar, they could afford Kawhi in that scenario

 

[KemBaller]

Can we go back to that thing where if he's Philly he's putting Simmons on the block this summer?

Can't win with him in today's NBA bro.

 

[Huskyforlife]

Someone in this thread actually said they'd trade Ben Simmons? Wow that's sad.

 

[tzznandrew]

Someone in this thread actually said they'd trade Ben Simmons? Wow that's sad.

Off. Of. A. 21-year'old's. Second. Playoff. Series. Ever.

 

[the Q]

Philly can still make a heck of an offer for Leonard without Simmons in it.

Fultz and the lakers pick alone is better than most teams can offer....outside of the not happening deals like a harden.

 

[Robertelamin]

Off. Of. A. 21-year'old's. Second. Playoff. Series. Ever.

It’s part of the “nuprocess”.