NBA Playoffs

[BigErnMcCracken]

I don't think it's an overstatement to say he's the best big man prospect since Hakeem and we've seen Shaq and Duncan in that time frame. He's a mammoth human being and he plays even bigger than than that. With the way the game has changed over the last ten years, watching him post up guys like Horford can often seem like Jurassic Park. You want to put an end to the age of Draymond and LeBron at center, this is your guy. Everyone in the league is at his mercy hoping he doesn't figure it out.

It seems like you're missing someone pretty conspicuous.

 

[intlzncster]

Until this series, though, the defensive superlatives have been well earned. I don't think it's an overstatement to say he's the best big man prospect since Hakeem and we've seen Shaq and Duncan in that time frame. He's a mammoth human being and he plays even bigger than than that. With the way the game has changed over the last ten years, watching him post up guys like Horford can often seem like Jurassic Park. You want to put an end to the age of Draymond and LeBron at center, this is your guy. Everyone in the league is at his mercy hoping he doesn't figure it out.

Not sure what you mean by 'prospect', but Duncan is a Top 5 or 6 player of All Time. And the best power forward ever. Shaq was the most dominant center since Wilt.

 

[superjohn]

Embiid is in a different class than KAT or Porzingis, at least to me. I don't think he's been overrated, despite what has happened so far in this series. If there's been a legit criticism it's with his durability - it's hard to be a major superstar in this league when you're playing 30 minutes a night and not going back to backs.

But yeah, he's definitely not there yet. People overlook the fact that he turns it over a lot and isn't super efficient (he shoots only 52% on 2 point field goals for his career which is low for somebody that size).

Until this series, though, the defensive superlatives have been well earned. I don't think it's an overstatement to say he's the best big man prospect since Hakeem and we've seen Shaq and Duncan in that time frame. He's a mammoth human being and he plays even bigger than than that. With the way the game has changed over the last ten years, watching him post up guys like Horford can often seem like Jurassic Park. You want to put an end to the age of Draymond and LeBron at center, this is your guy. Everyone in the league is at his mercy hoping he doesn't figure it out.

Embiid is awesome and shows fashes of doing things we haven't seen from any past center but a better prospect than Shaq? If Embiid is a mammoth human being than I can't come up with the right word for Shaq. Obviously Embiid is way better than Shaq at shooting and offensive arsenal but O'Neal would make that mammoth human being look fairly normal. Never seen anything close to Shaq in terms of sheer size, speed, and agility. Someone 320 or so lbs. just isn't supposed to move anything close to how guards/forwards move.

I don't think Shaq ever really cared about any of it but he could still just flip the switch and bully everybody on the court whenever he wanted to. His career is disappointing and he still won a bunch of championships and is one of the best to ever do it. If he cared like an MJ/Magic/Bird he would have rewritten the game IMO. Shaq at 310-320 lbs. was insane to watch, literally jaw-dropping. Shaq at 350 lbs. still the most dominant player in the NBA when he wanted to be but nothing like what he could have been.

Embiid is a freak of nature but I think some people are forgetting just how downright freaky O'Neal was early in his career. He was bigger, quicker, and more agile than Embiid.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Do we not consider Anthony Davis a big man?

 

[intlzncster]

Dirk getting no love here either. Euros never do.

 

[superjohn]

Dirk getting no love here either. Euros never do.

My all-time favorite player.

 

[champs99and04]

Do we not consider Anthony Davis a big man?

I wasn't really thinking of him as one of the traditional mold, but yeah, he's definitely a big man. There's certainly no guarantee Embiid will ever be as good as Davis is now. From a pure physical standpoint, though, he goes 7'1 in shoes to Davis' 6'10 and has a 7'6 wingspan while Davis is at 7'4, IIRC. It's hard to tell how consequential those differences are, but if you were designing the perfect big man prospect in a laboratory I think he'd look closer to Embiid than Davis.

@superjohn @intlzncster I'm fully aware of how dominant Shaq and Duncan were, especially Shaq when he was locked in and in shape. Embiid isn't at that level right now. That's what makes him so fascinating. His newness to the game works against him at times and in his favor at others because he hasn't developed the same bad habits as other guys. I was skeptical at first, but thinking back to the way scouts raved about him during the draft process, I've become a believer. The physical tools and the skills put him in rarified air. I will admit though that most of the time it's sacrilege to me to put anyone in the same conversation as Shaq.

 

[Husky25]

Not sure what you mean by 'prospect', but Duncan is a Top 5 or 6 player of All Time. And the best power forward ever. Shaq was the most dominant center since Wilt.

You forgot the qualifier, "arguably." I'm thinking Karl Malone would like a word with you.

 

[intlzncster]

You forgot the qualifier, "arguably." I'm thinking Karl Malone would like a word with you.

I'd take Duncan 10 times out of 10. Malone isn't even a top 10 player all time.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Just watched the NOP game. When did Curry become average? In the rear view mirror, we may end up wondering whether Durant was a net plus or a net minus.

 

[Scoe]

Just watched the NOP game. When did Curry become average? In the rear view mirror, we may end up wondering whether Durant was a net plus or a net minus.

Or is Curry still hurt he did have a sprained MCL this is the rockets chance to take advantage of a possible beat up GSW team that is if they get past Utah.

 

[superjohn]

All my Mitchell hype and he looks like he's never played basketball before in this first quarter, lol.

 

[Scoe]

All my Mitchell hype and he looks like he's never played basketball before in this first quarter, lol.

Jazz arent beating the Rockets 4 out of 7.

 

[superjohn]

Jazz arent beating the Rockets 4 out of 7.

I would agree with you if Rubio doesn't play. It's crazy they won game 6 against OKC and took 1 at Houston without him. A ton of basketball to be played, we will see.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Just watched the NOP game. When did Curry become average? In the rear view mirror, we may end up wondering whether Durant was a net plus or a net minus.

Wholly one game reactions. Warriors were collectively awful on O and D tonight but it doesn’t matter until they play Houston. They thought they could Coast and just shoot jumpers and win. Wrong. If it gets to 2-2 we can ask for step up, but even then I doubt this tuneup series goes more than 6.

Did you forget the Warriors won last year with Durant or does this one game nullify that?

 

[Dogdeacon]

I wasn't really thinking of him as one of the traditional mold, but yeah, he's definitely a big man. There's certainly no guarantee Embiid will ever be as good as Davis is now. From a pure physical standpoint, though, he goes 7'1 in shoes to Davis' 6'10 and has a 7'6 wingspan while Davis is at 7'4, IIRC. It's hard to tell how consequential those differences are, but if you were designing the perfect big man prospect in a laboratory I think he'd look closer to Embiid than Davis.

@superjohn @intlzncster I'm fully aware of how dominant Shaq and Duncan were, especially Shaq when he was locked in and in shape. Embiid isn't at that level right now. That's what makes him so fascinating. His newness to the game works against him at times and in his favor at others because he hasn't developed the same bad habits as other guys. I was skeptical at first, but thinking back to the way scouts raved about him during the draft process, I've become a believer. The physical tools and the skills put him in rarified air. I will admit though that most of the time it's sacrilege to me to put anyone in the same conversation as Shaq.

I don’t think Embif’s upside rivals Shaq’s at onset of O’Neals career but we all acknowledge Shaq didn’t care quite enough yet was still an all-timer. Embid if healthy has a chance to approach what Shaq actually was in terms of regular season numbers, but I don’t think he’s a championship ticket the way Shaq was in multiple places. And even now the health thing and ability to stay on the court is a big deal. Oft injured big men have mostly disappointments on their NBA retrospectives. A good Embid comp is Ralph Sampson. Thought to be a game changer and had skills and size, just too fragile. Hopefully Joel, (after this season or playoff series gets healthier and has a longer more consistently productive career.

 

[superjohn]

Wholly one game reactions. Warriors were collectively awful on O and D tonight but it doesn’t matter until they play Houston. They thought they could Coast and just shoot jumpers and win. Wrong. If it gets to 2-2 we can ask for step up, but even then I doubt this tuneup series goes more than 6.

Did you forget the Warriors won last year with Durant or does this one game nullify that?

Curry had 28 points in 27 minutes in his first game back after missing 5 or 6 weeks and they won it all last year with Durant taking home MVP. Other than that his post was solid.

 

[Scoe]

Its one game its easier to bounce back from a game you didnt deserve to win then a game you shouldve won.

 

[bballgrda]

You forgot the qualifier, "arguably." I'm thinking Karl Malone would like a word with you.

Karl Malone is barely a top 5 PF (the position which has the weakest crop of players). I'd take Duncan, Dirk, KG, Chuck ahead of him.

 

[champs99and04]

I don’t think Embif’s upside rivals Shaq’s at onset of O’Neals career but we all acknowledge Shaq didn’t care quite enough yet was still an all-timer. Embid if healthy has a chance to approach what Shaq actually was in terms of regular season numbers, but I don’t think he’s a championship ticket the way Shaq was in multiple places. And even now the health thing and ability to stay on the court is a big deal. Oft injured big men have mostly disappointments on their NBA retrospectives. A good Embid comp is Ralph Sampson. Thought to be a game changer and had skills and size, just too fragile. Hopefully Joel, (after this season or playoff series gets healthier and has a longer more consistently productive career.

The one nit to pick with respect to peak Shaq was his free throw shooting. That was a real problem, especially in crunch-time. There were situations where it became suicide to even throw him the ball because you were looking at roughly a 25% conversion rate if you needed two points. If he played in the modern game, the combination of increasingly sophisticated defenses and the explosion of the three point shot might temper his dominance a bit. Whether that's fair to take into account or not, and I lean towards no, the extra dimension to Embiid's game puts him in the discussion with all the other pantheon prospects of the last 25 years.

As far as where he fits in reality, Sampson might be a good comparison. Hell, Greg Oden isn't a name that should be lost in this discussion. He never produced in the NBA like Embiid did, but he was also younger than Embiid when he broke into the league. Point being, a lot can go wrong and the players that did reach the top - one guy that hasn't been mentioned is Kevin Garnett - tend to be taken for granted. Right now, Embiid isn't even at the level of somebody like a peak Dwight Howard, forget names like Shaq and Duncan.

But I've never seen scouts salivate over a player who had accomplished comparatively as little as Embiid. I was one of the unenlightened people who was sold on Wiggins at #1. I like to think that one of the lessons I have learned since is to never bet against size. Unfortunately, I think you're probably right. It's usually too good to be true with guys this gifted.

 

[Husky25]

Karl Malone is barely a top 5 PF (the position which has the weakest crop of players). I'd take Duncan, Dirk, KG, Chuck ahead of him.

That's your argument? It's not a good one.

 

[tzznandrew]

I can't argue with that, but it is interesting to see how people view JJ in comparison to somebody like Klay Thompson over the last five years (stats per 36 minutes):

Klay: 22.3 points, 2.5 assists, 1.9 turnovers, 2.7 FTA, 47/43/85 splits

JJ: 19.8 points, 2.4 assists, 1.5 turnovers, 3.4 FTA, 46/44/90 splits

Per minute numbers are always going to favor the guy who plays less minutes (in this case J.J.), so I'm not trying to frame this as a complete apples to apples comparison. Klay is also typically tasked with the assignment of guarding the other team's best perimeter player while Redick is someone you try to hide. That makes what he does as an offensive player that much more impressive without even considering the value he adds on defense (which is why he's in a different tier than J.J. as a player).

But still - Klay is unanimously considered one of the greatest shooters of all-time and J.J. is basically giving you 90% of that production offensively. It's hard to imagine that Jayson Tatum was like six when J.J. was playing us in the final four.

Klay's never had to be a #1 option, but there's no way JJ could ever do something like:



Also, Klay is a fantastic defender.

The comparison between them is silly.

 

[superjohn]

Klay's never had to be a #1 option, but there's no way JJ could ever do something like:



Also, Klay is a fantastic defender.

The comparison between them is silly.

Klay is arguably the best shooting guard in the league and a Hall of Famer. Redick is a good player who could never crack the top 10 shooting guards during his playing career. It would be like comparing Nikola Mirotic to Dirk Nowitzki.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Also, Klay is a fantastic defender.

Totally agree. Reddick is a great pure shooter - with some other positive facets.
Thompson is a great pure shooter with a great all around game - passing, defending, intensity, BBIQ - easily my favorite player on the GSWs.
Thompson suffers from the same problem that D. Green has - they are both great players who are generally underrated/undervalued because they're playing next to Curry. Not anybody's fault - it's just the way it is.
I remember a HS friend who came to me on day 2 at UConn and was forlorn. She was a very attractive female. I asked her what was wrong. She said I'd have to meet her new roommate to find out. Went to a get-together that weekend. Roommate was one of the most beautiful women with whom I have ever stood in a room. So it was like a herd of dudes around the roommate and my friend, who was a solid 8, got only the fringe attention.
Funny conclusion - super hot roommate ended up sitting next to me at an 8am class (can't believe I was ever stupid enough to take those). I reminded her who I was, and then she breathed upon me the foulest stench I had ever experienced emanating from a human being - from any location. I came to class late the rest of the semester to dodge her. True story.

 

[MadDogRevival]

LBJ current playoff career rankings:
3pt made - 2nd
Steals - 1st
Points - 1st
Rebounds - 7th
Assists - 3rd
Blocks - 19.
I know somebody will want to bang him with, yeah, but he's played in a lot of playoffs. Tied for 35th, at the moment, and, also, of course, he's substantially the reason he's played in a lot of playoffs.
[EDIT - 1st in points, 3rd in assists, and 7th in rebounds is absolutely absurd, come to think of it.]