NBA Playoffs

[Lefty2one]

Well, I watched him with the Bulls, and even at that age, he was the best pound for pound rebounder I've ever seen.

He was also still an elite defender. Bosh was often called soft. While Rodman was the exact opposite. Dude was incredibly strong. Hell, they even matched him up against Shaq! And Rodman could hold his own....as much as one can against Shaq.

Yes, Bosh is by far the better offensive player, so tzz's point about him being a more complete player is true. I said I'd take Rodman over him, because often times, it is more beneficial to have a player with 1 or 2 elite skills. But that's my opinion.

Rodman never made All Stars then because of his scoring, and more importantly, his antics.

I agree - he was a HOFer for a reason. My point was more that those Bulls teams were perfectly assembled as opposed to being loaded with talent. Kind of like what the Patriots have been under Belichick. They found the perfect pieces for the Triangle and to compliment Jordan's game. As I'm sure you remember, in it's heydey the Triangle was considered a pretty big advantage in an era of iso-heavy basketball. They found the right pieces for it (length, versatility, passing skills, smarts, etc) and maximized the ability of those role players.

No one called the Bulls a super team. Hell, forget today's era, those Bulls teams also had less overall talent than the Showtime Lakers, 80s Celtics or potentially the Bad Boy Pistons (who are criminally underrated from a historical perspective IMO). Those teams were all deeper and more talented than the Bulls, but the Bulls had Jordan.

 

[superjohn]

LOL if you still think Jordan is better than LeBron. LeBron is the GOAT because context matters. Dragging a wasteman team to the finals many times is more impressive than winning with a team full of Hall of Famers. Beating the greatest regular season team of all time is worth a ton. If you want to talk resumes and accomplishments, sure, but that argument can't be had until LeBron's done. But there has never been someone playing the game at a better and higher level than he is.

Jordan played with one teammate who made all-star games while playing with him. I now see you're calling Jordan a quitter because he took a break after his dad was murdered. If you're older than 15 years old these posts are extremely embarrassing, if you're a young teen it's time to educate yourself on some history. Lebron is amazing and people can make the argument he's the best ever if they like but the amount of people in this thread trying to make his case by lying about Jordan is not a good way to do it.

 

[Lefty2one]

LOL if you still think Jordan is better than LeBron. LeBron is the GOAT because context matters. Dragging a wasteman team to the finals many times is more impressive than winning with a team full of Hall of Famers. Beating the greatest regular season team of all time is worth a ton. If you want to talk resumes and accomplishments, sure, but that argument can't be had until LeBron's done. But there has never been someone playing the game at a better and higher level than he is.

Please clue us all in on the "team full of Hall of Famers" that MJ played on. Hell, you can't even say he played on a team full of All Stars.

I also remember when Jordan was a quitter in his prime and the Bulls went from 57–25 stunningly down to 55–27 without him. I wonder how many games the Cavs will win next year with LeBron on the Rockets (or Sixers)?

Like the regular season means that much? Just ask the Raptors the last three years or the 60-win Hawks from a few years ago. The NBA regular season has always been a farce; you can't judge much from it. The bottom line is the Bulls went from a 3-peat, to failing to get past the second round, to another 3-peat once Jordan was back in the fold and in shape.

 

[superjohn]

This is the problem when young (or ignorant) people go back and look at history. They don't know the nuances of the era. They think Pippen and Rodman were at their peak for the entire duration of their Chicago tenures. They think Horace Grant was some great player; he averaged more than 15 PPG one time and it was 15.1. He made one All-Star team ('94, without MJ). Pippen wasn't an All-Star during the final Bulls dynasty season in '98. Rodman never made the All-Star team with the Bulls.

@UofCT2009 ...

Wade, Bosh, Love and Kyrie ALL made multiple All-Star teams while teammates of LeBron. You know how many All-Star teammates MJ? One: Pippen. Seven times. Not Grant, not Rodman, not Kukoc. He had ONE All-Star teammate his entire career and people act like he was on loaded teams.

In 25 years, people will bash LeBron for losing the 2014 Finals because they'll think he lost it with a prime Wade. Our country cares less and less about history with each passing decade. It's a shame.

Really well said, told a buddy this same thing on facebook the other day. Somehow people championing Lebron have created a revisionist narrative where Jordan played with a team full of all-stars and hall of famers his whole career.

 

[ihatepants]

Please clue us all in on the "team full of Hall of Famers" that MJ played on. Hell, you can't even say he played on a team full of All Stars.

Like the regular season means that much? Just ask the Raptors the last three years or the 60-win Hawks from a few years ago. The NBA regular season has always been a farce; you can't judge much from it. The bottom line is the Bulls went from a 3-peat, to failing to get past the second round, to another 3-peat once Jordan was back in the fold and in shape.

Uh. Pippen and Rodman are both in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame. LeBron’s played with one future HOFer in his career - Wade. If the regular season doesn’t matter, then you can shove all those stats you posted up your ass, because “it doesn’t mean that much”

 

[superjohn]

Uh. Pippen and Rodman are both in the hall of fame. LeBron’s played with one future HOFer in his career - Wade. If the regular season doesn’t matter, then you can shove all those stats you posted up your ass, because “it doesn’t mean that much”

This is so sad. Lebron played with Wade, Bosh, and Allen. Kyrie if he stays healthy will also probably end up there.

You're not good at this.

 

[ihatepants]

This is so sad. Lebron played with Wade, Bosh, and Allen. Kyrie if he stays healthy will also probably end up there.

You're not good at this.

Allen was a role player the time he played with Bron. Bosh is a borderline hall of famer. Kyrie has a long way to go before making it.

 

[superjohn]

Allen was a role player the time he played with Bron. Bosh is a borderline hall of famer. Kyrie has a long way to go before making it.

Without Ray Allen Lebron would be 2-6 in the finals and staring down 2-7.

 

[Lefty2one]

Uh. Pippen and Rodman are both in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame. LeBron’s played with one future HOFer in his career - Wade. If the regular season doesn’t matter, then you can shove all those stats you posted up your ass, because “it doesn’t mean that much”

So he won his first three titles with only one - Pippen. The second he had a 34-36-year-old Rodman, while Pippen's back was ailing and wasn't the same player he was earlier in his career. That's a team full of Hall of Famers? Okay...

Also, you acknowledge that Ray wasn't the same player during his time with LeBron but don't do the same for MJ with his supporting cast?

Wade, Bosh, Allen, Kyrie and even Kevin Love will all be HOFers.

 

[ihatepants]

Without Ray Allen Lebron would be 2-6 in the finals and staring down 2-7.

That’s like saying “without Robert Horry making X shot for the Spurs/Lakers, Duncan/Kobe would be blah blah”

 

[ihatepants]

So he won his first three titles with only one - Pippen. The second he had a 34-36-year-old Rodman, while Pippen's back was ailing and wasn't the same player he was earlier in his career. That's a team full of Hall of Famers? Okay...

Also, you acknowledge that Ray wasn't the same player during his time with LeBron but don't do the same for MJ with his supporting cast?

Wade, Bosh, Allen, Kyrie and even Kevin Love will all be HOFers.

Saying Pippen was not the same player is straight up BS. He was still in the top 5 in the NBA in win shares in both 96 and 97. How many teammates did Lebron have also have top 10 WS when he played with them? None. Rodman was also in the top 5 in defensive win shares and top 10 in defensive rating after he joined the Bulls.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Really well said, told a buddy this same thing on facebook the other day. Somehow people championing Lebron have created a revisionist narrative where Jordan played with a team full of all-stars and hall of famers his whole career.

I'm curious, you think Jordan's in the finals with this Cavs crew? I think the Jordan v. Lebron debate is silly given how difficult it is to compare across eras but I'm coming around to the idea that Lebron is the best basketball player we've ever seen. You gotta be willfully ignorant or have just started watching basketball in the last ten years to reject the case for MJ though.

 

[superjohn]

That’s like saying “without Robert Horry making X shot for the Spurs/Lakers, Duncan/Kobe would be blah blah”

Why not just admit you're wrong and Lebron has played with more all-stars and Hall of Famers than Jordan has?

 

[superjohn]

I'm curious, you think Jordan's in the finals with this Cavs crew? I think the Jordan v. Lebron debate is silly given how difficult it is to compare across eras but I'm coming around to the idea that Lebron is the best basketball player we've ever seen. You gotta be willfully ignorant or have just started watching basketball in the last ten years to reject the case for MJ though.

Probably not but there is no way of knowing. Just like I think Jordan has at least 8 titles if his pops was never murdered and he doesn't retire early. What ifs.

 

[ihatepants]

Why not just admit you're wrong and Lebron has played with more all-stars and Hall of Famers than Jordan has?

Because you’re acting like Pippen isn’t a top 25 player in the history of the NBA and keep forgetting that he’s better than anyone LeBron has ever played with.

 

[ihatepants]

Anyway, the NBA’s “Last Two Minute Report” is out. Draymond Green committed a lane violation on Hill’s second (missed) free throw that should have been called, allowing him to shoot again. He also committed a foul while over the bonus, that should have led to Cavs free throws (with LeBron at the line instead of Hill)

 

[Rocktheworld]

LOL if you still think Jordan is better than LeBron. LeBron is the GOAT because context matters. Dragging a wasteman team to the finals many times is more impressive than winning with a team full of Hall of Famers.

Jordan couldn't even get to the Finals till he had Pippen for like 3 years. Bron got there with Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Beat a Pistons team coming off their third straight Finals to get there, too

Beating the greatest regular season team of all time is worth a ton.

Man he didn't just beat them, he came back from 3-1

If you want to talk resumes and accomplishments, sure, but that argument can't be had until LeBron's done. But there has never been someone playing the game at a better and higher level than he is.

Kerr, famed team mate of MJ, said literally this last night

 

[Lefty2one]

Saying Pippen was not the same player is straight up BS. He was still in the top 5 in the NBA in win shares in both 96 and 97. How many teammates did Lebron have also have top 10 WS when he played with them? None. Rodman was also in the top 5 in defensive win shares and top 10 in defensive rating after he joined the Bulls.

Yay, nothing but advanced stats. Always a good idea to use nothing but one advanced stat in an argument...

Dive into WS and WS/48 and you'll see all kinds of crazy names and trends. Defensive WS especially is an extremely flawed metric.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Yay, nothing but advanced stats. Always a good idea to use nothing but one advanced stat in an argument...

Dive into WS and WS/48 and you'll see all kinds of crazy names and trends. Defensive WS especially is an extremely flawed metric.

Yeah because there are always outliers in statistical data. Is Pippen a statistical outlier?

 

[ihatepants]

Yeah because there are always outliers in statistical data. Is Pippen a statistical outlier?

That’s the joke, I guess. WS/48 can result in some weird names being included because it’s a per minute stat and can have some guys without much playing time scoring high. WS itself is over the course of the entire season. And by the way, Pippen’s PER that year was also 21.0, which was right in line with his career’s peak (and above his career average 18.6). His VORP in 96 was also 6.3. But sure, he just wasn’t the same player anymore.

 

[Lefty2one]

Jordan couldn't even get to the Finals till he had Pippen for like 3 years. Bron got there with Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

MJ didn't get there because of the Bad Boy Pistons, a team so good they were a game away from a 3-peat. Just a little tougher than what LeBron faced in the East early in his career (or at any point in his career). LeBron got to the 2007 Finals and finally faced some stiff competition and was terrible - a TS of .426 (36/20/69) and nearly a 1:1 AST:TO.

MJ individually was terrorizing the Pistons (a far better team historically than the 2007 Spurs); great scoring numbers with efficiency.

 

[UofCT]

What's the joke? Peak Wade is better than anyone on that list, and peak Kyrie is better than anyone but Pippen. Peak Bosh is a much better two way player than anyone on that list but Pippen.

Peak Wade better than Pippen. Got it

 

[UofCT]

Dear lord, pick up a history book or find some YouTube clips. You're making yourself look ridiculous.

Good advice. Read up on Pippen and Rodman. Not sure if you have ever heard of this thing called the Hall of Fame but they are both in it.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

LeBron got to the 2007 Finals and finally faced some stiff competition and was terrible - a TS of .426 (36/20/69) and nearly a 1:1 AST:TO.

It is not possible to look at that 2007 Cavs roster and not laugh out loud at how terrible it was. Who's the second best player? Boobie Gibson? Ilgauskus?

And you're talking about a 22 year old kid carrying that roster to the finals and putting up 22-7-7.

 

[Rocktheworld]

It is not possible to look at that 2007 Cavs roster and not laugh out loud at how terrible it was. Who's the second best player? Boobie Gibson? Ilgauskus?

And you're talking about a 22 year old kid carrying that roster to the finals and putting up 22-7-7.

I was about to reply asking what MJ was doing at the same age.

He was what, still playing for another legendary coach in Dean Smith? And who was coaching LeBron by the way (then, or any other time)?

 

[Lefty2one]

That’s the joke, I guess. WS/48 can result in some weird names being included because it’s a per minute stat and can have some guys without much playing time scoring high. WS itself is over the course of the entire season. And by the way, Pippen’s PER that year was also 21.0, which was right in line with his career’s peak (and above his career average 18.6). His VORP in 96 was also 6.3. But sure, he just wasn’t the same player anymore.

It was more a commentary on his postseason play and the headlines I remember from the time.

1991 Finals: 20/9/6 on 45% FG
1992 Finals: 20/8/8 on 48% FG
1993 Finals: 21/9/8 on 44% FG

1996 Finals: 16/8/5 on 34% FG
1997 Finals: 20/8/3 on 42% FG
1998 Finals: 16/7/5 on 41% FG

He had back issues one year, 97 or 98. He could barely move in one of the Finals the last couple games. They weren't the same, menacing duo they were during the first 3-peat. 1996 maybe, but not this last two years.

 

[Lefty2one]

It is not possible to look at that 2007 Cavs roster and not laugh out loud at how terrible it was. Who's the second best player? Boobie Gibson? Ilgauskus?

And you're talking about a 22 year old kid carrying that roster to the finals and putting up 22-7-7.

It's not any worse than the 87-88 Bulls team and a 24-year-old MJ who ran into Detroit and posted 27/9/5 on 49% FG. Only difference is the East wasn't a train wreck early in MJ's career and hit a juggernaut earlier.

 

[Lefty2one]

I was about to reply asking what MJ was doing at the same age.

He was what, still playing for another legendary coach in Dean Smith? And who was coaching LeBron by the way (then, or any other time)?

That was the year of the broken ankle. He came back and posted 37/5/5 on 49% as a 23-year-old.

 

[Rocktheworld]

That was the year of the broken ankle. He came back and posted 37/5/5 on 49% as a 23-year-old.

24, and they got knocked out by the Celtics in the first round because they limped in to the playoffs as the bottom seed after going under .500.

Bron first put up 31/7/7 when he could barely legally drink. Did it on 48%

In which year of his career was MJ no longer the best player in the league?

Because in year 15 (the total seasons MJ played), Bron is still by far the best player in the league.

 

[superjohn]

Because you’re acting like Pippen isn’t a top 25 player in the history of the NBA and keep forgetting that he’s better than anyone LeBron has ever played with.

This is crazy town. You're the one who said Jordan wins with teams full of Hall of famers. You're nuts if you think Pippen is better than Wade. Wade was neck and neck for best shooting guard in the league with Kobe and one of the best players in the league. You're not even old enough to remember it was Lebron joining up with Wade who had already brought them a title while completely dominating the playoffs?