NBA Playoffs

[champs99and04]

What?! LeBron made his two decisions based on combo in this order of: 1) places, 2) control and 3) teammates.
Places: He literally and famously said "I'm taking my talents to South Beach." (taxes, atmosphere v Cleveland), next "I'm coming home" (see attached story notably "always thought I'd end my career in Cleveland..."
Control: Orchestrated Wiggins/Love swap, opted for Miami in concert with Bosh & arranged via Wade
Teammates: Wade & Bosh, Cleveland's lottery pick bounty - first mentions were Kyrie (arguably emerging Wade) & TristanT (no Bosh, enter KLove).
If we are ignoring Places & Control for Philly and just looking at teammates, then Utah is actually the better fit with very similar type of teammates, namely a high quality big and emerging guard scorer. Of course he's not going to Utah.

Of course currently most of the speculation is based on LeBron's tacit admission of chasing Jordan, so everyone thinks he needs 3 more championships and in order to achieve that he's obviously got little time to waste. But again, I think that's about not one, not two but three (sorry and therefore building a dynasty and choosing a team based on longer horizon than next year's favorite. LA is a place LeBron can and will recruit whomever he wants to join him (so they choose it too, unlike Philly) and try to win in the final 5 years of his career 20-24.

SI exclusive: LeBron James explains his return to Cleveland Cavaliers

His decisions have been about winning. That's it. The "I'm coming home" narrative became convenient once the Cavs won three lotteries in four years. The move to Miami was all about playing with Wade and Bosh. Taxes? Come on.

Perhaps he doesn't want to play in a Siberia like Utah or Denver, but Philly is obviously not that. It would actually be his first time playing for an iconic franchise that the league has real interest in promoting. I think his interest in the south beach scene was always dramatically overstated - he went there for basketball and was willing to swallow the circus that came with it. Big difference between wanting to live in Miami and wanting to play in Miami. No great athlete wants to play there.

 

[superjohn]

Boogie and Anthony Davis offer rebuttal to both your best center in league crazy talk and bigger & better triumphs over all.

Cousins is their center, Anthony Davis is their power forward. Embiid is better than Cousins. Seems from your other post you think Embiid and Gobert are on the same level, so not a whole lot here to discuss with you.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Hard to believe the Ws just dumped one at home. Durant was awful and cost them the game. Guy shot 9 of 24 and had 3 assists and zero blocks. How does a guy as tall and athletic as him have no blocks when he's always guarding a guy substantially shorter? How does he have 3 assists when he's got 2 of the best five shooters in the league next to him and he's ball dominant?
Then you have a guy like Thompson - a guy who flat out represents the two-way dominance of GS. Guy gets marginalized by the KD show and doesn't get the looks he should be getting - this guy scored 37. In a quarter. Unreal he shoots 2 of 5 from 3 and watches KD clang bunches on an off night - make an adjustment Kerr!
I think Kerr got outcoached tonight. Houston had no business winning that game. It's hard to believe Houston is going back home with home court. Hard to believe the Ws are at risk of losing the series now. Next game probably decides it.
Rockets/Celtics final would be really fun to watch.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Hard to believe the Ws just dumped one at home. Durant was awful and cost them the game. Guy shot 9 of 24 and had 3 assists and zero blocks. How does a guy as tall and athletic as him have no blocks when he's always guarding a guy substantially shorter? How does he have 3 assists when he's got 2 of the best five shooters in the league next to him and he's ball dominant?
Then you have a guy like Thompson - a guy who flat out represents the two-way dominance of GS. Guy gets marginalized by the KD show and doesn't get the looks he should be getting - this guy scored 37. In a quarter. Unreal he shoots 2 of 5 from 3 and watches KD clang bunches on an off night - make an adjustment Kerr!
I think Kerr got outcoached tonight. Houston had no business winning that game. It's hard to believe Houston is going back home with home court. Hard to believe the Ws are at risk of losing the series now. Next game probably decides it.
Rockets/Celtics final would be really fun to watch.

I think you may be overrating Klay’s ability. Although he is an all-time shooter, he has never been a player who creates for himself, or anyone else for that matter. He needs a set up for his scoring.

 

[Mr. French]

Hard to believe the Ws just dumped one at home. Durant was awful and cost them the game. Guy shot 9 of 24 and had 3 assists and zero blocks. How does a guy as tall and athletic as him have no blocks when he's always guarding a guy substantially shorter? How does he have 3 assists when he's got 2 of the best five shooters in the league next to him and he's ball dominant?
Then you have a guy like Thompson - a guy who flat out represents the two-way dominance of GS. Guy gets marginalized by the KD show and doesn't get the looks he should be getting - this guy scored 37. In a quarter. Unreal he shoots 2 of 5 from 3 and watches KD clang bunches on an off night - make an adjustment Kerr!
I think Kerr got outcoached tonight. Houston had no business winning that game. It's hard to believe Houston is going back home with home court. Hard to believe the Ws are at risk of losing the series now. Next game probably decides it.
Rockets/Celtics final would be really fun to watch.

I’m not disagreeing with your overall point, but what is the adjustment?

 

[Dogdeacon]

Cousins is their center, Anthony Davis is their power forward. Embiid is better than Cousins. Seems from your other post you think Embiid and Gobert are on the same level, so not a whole lot here to discuss with you.

YOU said he's the best center is basketball and NO advanced to 2nd round of playoffs with Davis at center. Davis is first team all NBA center, the end.
Next lets look at last 3-4 years of comps to Embid, Porzingis, KAT, Gobert even Drummond are in the conversation. Embid probably has better upside than anyone but but he's played 1/4 years so far = 94 career games. You wanna crown him? I like basketball players that play games and Porzings in just 3 seasons WITH injuries has played essentially double at 186, KAT 246 in just 3 seasons, Gobert 284 games over that same timespan, Drummond 322 games, take that for data.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Hard to believe the Ws just dumped one at home. Durant was awful and cost them the game. Guy shot 9 of 24 and had 3 assists and zero blocks. How does a guy as tall and athletic as him have no blocks when he's always guarding a guy substantially shorter? How does he have 3 assists when he's got 2 of the best five shooters in the league next to him and he's ball dominant?
Then you have a guy like Thompson - a guy who flat out represents the two-way dominance of GS. Guy gets marginalized by the KD show and doesn't get the looks he should be getting - this guy scored 37. In a quarter. Unreal he shoots 2 of 5 from 3 and watches KD clang bunches on an off night - make an adjustment Kerr!
I think Kerr got outcoached tonight. Houston had no business winning that game. It's hard to believe Houston is going back home with home court. Hard to believe the Ws are at risk of losing the series now. Next game probably decides it.
Rockets/Celtics final would be really fun to watch.

Did you miss the part where Thompson got hurt and was clearly struggling getting lift? I do think Durant tried to jump shoot them to victory and should have driven to hoop - all of the Golden State guys played as if they'd like to win whereas Houston played with urgency. Refs and Iggy injury helped too.

I wouldn't over-react to this game though. If GState wins Houston is a joke and regular season meaningless! If Rockets win, GState is soft, over-rated and KD, Curry, Draymond are just bullies!
Golden State will still likely win this series, but we should be thankful that Houston won last night to make them earn it. More competitive basketball games is good.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Qualifying centers ranked by PER

Hollinger's NBA Player Stats - ESPN Insider - National Basketball Association - ESPN

 

[MadDogRevival]

Klay . . .has never been a player who creates for himself, or anyone else for that matter. He needs a set up for his scoring.

Right. And Durant provides almost zero in that regard.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I’m not disagreeing with your overall point, but what is the adjustment?

I'm not getting paid 3 or 5 mill a year to answer that question, but . . .
Fewer jump shots, more drives, change up on D, Curry is not a clutch player, maybe move the ball to somebody else in the 4th, Durant was cold, maybe go through somebody else.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I wouldn't over-react to this game though. If GState wins Houston is a joke and regular season meaningless! If Rockets win, GState is soft, over-rated and KD, Curry, Draymond are just bullies!

No overreaction - this was a startling loss for the Warriors, on par with the chokes leading up to the 7 game loss to the Cavs at home.
If the Warriors win, there is no implication for the regular season, to be sure.
If the Rockets win, Ws become one of the greatest underachievers in the history of the NBA, particularly if the Rockets don't win it all.

 

[superjohn]

YOU said he's the best center is basketball and NO advanced to 2nd round of playoffs with Davis at center. Davis is first team all NBA center, the end.
Next lets look at last 3-4 years of comps to Embid, Porzingis, KAT, Gobert even Drummond are in the conversation. Embid probably has better upside than anyone but but he's played 1/4 years so far = 94 career games. You wanna crown him? I like basketball players that play games and Porzings in just 3 seasons WITH injuries has played essentially double at 186, KAT 246 in just 3 seasons, Gobert 284 games over that same timespan, Drummond 322 games, take that for data.

You've got Gobert and Drummond at the same level as Embiid. As I said before, can't continue this conversation with you.

 

[Dogdeacon]

No overreaction - this was a startling loss for the Warriors, on par with the chokes leading up to the 7 game loss to the Cavs at home.
If the Warriors win, there is no implication for the regular season, to be sure.
If the Rockets win, Ws become one of the greatest underachievers in the history of the NBA, particularly if the Rockets don't win it all.

But you are having those reactions to this one game basing your reaction/storyline on who makes the finals.
Hint: whoever advances needs to win two more games and there will also be stuff that happens within those games.

You've got Gobert and Drummond at the same level as Embiid. As I said before, can't continue this conversation with you.

That's cuz you are wrong & besides the games played issue, the PER shows there are plenty of centers in conversation with Embid. And your incorrect point was that LeBron is picking Embid b/c he's 'the best center in the league' which he is definitively not via All NBA center Anthony Davis. And if that pairing is the criteria LeBron picks NO. And of course big picture with Embid the health projection makes choosing Philly very risky. I.e. if Embid is hurt again and LeBron paired with can't shoot Simmons & Fultz, its worse than current Cavs.

 

[auror]

His decisions have been about winning. That's it. The "I'm coming home" narrative became convenient once the Cavs won three lotteries in four years.

I disagree with you a bit there, although I do actually agree with your larger point that Miami was the best of the options that could fit the salaries of the 3 players and not based firstly on city.

I think he legitimately wanted to win a title for Cleveland, though (and repair his image post-Decision). Winning the lotteries made the team good enough to make it feasible, but returning to Cleveland was his first choice. If winning was the most important thing, he could have gone to a few other places that would have made it more likely.

 

[superjohn]

But you are having those reactions to this one game basing your reaction/storyline on who makes the finals.
Hint: whoever advances needs to win two more games and there will also be stuff that happens within those games.

That's cuz you are wrong & besides the games played issue, the PER shows there are plenty of centers in conversation with Embid. And your incorrect point was that LeBron is picking Embid b/c he's 'the best center in the league' which he is definitively not via All NBA center Anthony Davis. And if that pairing is the criteria LeBron picks NO. And of course big picture with Embid the health projection makes choosing Philly very risky. I.e. if Embid is hurt again and LeBron paired with can't shoot Simmons & Fultz, its worse than current Cavs.

Great, another "fan" who doesn't watch any of the games. His name is Embiid and he's way better than Gobert and Drummond.

I'm not even going to touch the Philly roster being worse than the Cavs roster thing, this is silly season.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Great, another "fan" who doesn't watch any of the games. His name is Embiid and he's way better than Gobert and Drummond.

I'm not even going to touch the Philly roster being worse than the Cavs roster thing, this is silly season.

Your entire style of debate with no facts just pure dismissal is at least consistent. Doesn't watch any games (I was AT the Celtics game last Tuesday didn't see you) is just as accurate as your 60 game Embiid evaluation and your detailed comprehensive review of all the center comps. If you followed the Sixers you'd know Reddick, Ilyasova & Belinelli were 1yr rentals even though they were 3/8 guys that got burn in the playoffs. On the plus side thanks for the spelling tip.

 

[superjohn]

Your entire style of debate with no facts just pure dismissal is at least consistent. Doesn't watch any games (I was AT the Celtics game last Tuesday didn't see you) is just as accurate as your 60 game Embiid evaluation and your detailed comprehensive review of all the center comps. On the plus side thanks for the spelling tip.

Embiid played more games than Gobert this season. Do you really want to stick sith Gobert and Embiid being at the same level?

 

[Dogdeacon]

Embiid played more games than Gobert this season. Do you really want to stick sith Gobert and Embiid being at the same level?

You said Embiid is the best center. Prove it or stop.
Embiid is among a group of centers/big men of which I named a few but the complete list is in the PER post/link. I'm not going to debate Mr no facts on each and every one of them. Davis is the best center. Over the past 4 years which is Embiid's career to date I'd have rather had Goebert than Embiid. Production proves it, $ proves it, Utah's record proves it.
Going forward Embiid IF he's healthy but I would not bet on that and more importantly I don't think LeBron is betting his career on that.

 

[superjohn]

You said Embiid is the best center. Prove it or stop.
Embiid is among a group of centers/big men of which I named a few but the complete list is in the PER post/link. I'm not going to debate Mr no facts on each and every one of them. Davis is the best center. Over the past 4 years which is Embiid's career to date I'd have rather had Goebert than Embiid. Production proves it, $ proves it, Utah's record proves it.
Going forward Embiid IF he's healthy but I would not bet on that and more importantly I don't think LeBron is betting his career on that.

Again, the fantasy generation is ruining sports. Watch the games, James Harden is not better than Lebron.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Again, the fantasy generation is ruining sports. Watch the games, James Harden is not better than Lebron.

Strawman bs. I didn't argue PER at all, just referred to the list of dudes. And you present a 3rd or 4th incorrect opinion that I neither stated or believe. In this thread I've hated on Harden & I think LeBron deserves this and last year's MVP which he won't be taking to Philly to show to Embiid. Why do you think Embiid is better than either Harden or Anthony Davis?
How could you think Saric is better than Kevin Love? You've got the sat down in playoffs Covington over stepping up Tristan Thompson, please...

 

[auror]

Again, the fantasy generation is ruining sports. Watch the games, James Harden is not better than Lebron.

This is a Hall of Fame-level curmudgeon troll post.

You made a superior generation comment.
You didn't answer any of his questions or make any arguments.
You used an appeal to authority fallacy on a strawman fallacy in the same sentence. And naturally you made it self-authority.

You can still make arguments even if you don't like stats. You just have to say what you see specifically that makes you think certain players are better than others when doing all that game watching you do. Not making any arguments other than appeals to authority or popularity is lazy. You can say (repeatedly) it's not worth the effort to debate people on the internet, but when you continue to do so, albeit in a lazy manner, you just undermine your own opinions.

 

[Rocktheworld]

This is a Hall of Fame-level curmudgeon troll post.

You made a superior generation comment.
You didn't answer any of his questions or make any arguments.
You used an appeal to authority fallacy on a strawman fallacy in the same sentence. And naturally you made it self-authority.

You can still make arguments even if you don't like stats. You just have to say what you see specifically that makes you think certain players are better than others when doing all that game watching you do. Not making any arguments other than appeals to authority or popularity is lazy. You can say (repeatedly) it's not worth the effort to debate people on the internet, but when you continue to do so, albeit in a lazy manner, you just undermine your own opinions.

Same guy who touts the almighty “if you didn’t watch X player you can’t compare him to Y player” dismissal

 

[HuskyHawk]

Definitely wasn't counting on any of the future picks. That certainly changes the calculus depending on what happens with those.

RE their past success, I just think it's a different game in the playoffs. The Warriors dial it up when they want or need to.

I'm sure they could take a couple games, but I just don't see them outlasting the Warriors over 7 games. I mean, this Warriors team just took out one of the best teams in the NBA by 30.

So the Warriors dial it up...everyone else does too. You don't have to go back in time very far to find Warrior teams that weren't very good. They became what they are quite rapidly. The last year UConn won a national championship, GS finished 6th in the west. Two years before that they missed the playoffs.

I think Boston is replicating that, and with a healthy roster, the talent gap between them is negligible. The talent differential favors Boston over time, since GS is older. The seemingly "old" Al Horford is the same age as Curry and Durant is only a year younger. GS isn't going to stay on top for long.

 

[Lefty2one]

Embiid is better than Cousins.

Whoa. Spicy!

 

[Dogdeacon]

This is a Hall of Fame-level curmudgeon troll post.

You made a superior generation comment.
You didn't answer any of his questions or make any arguments.
You used an appeal to authority fallacy on a strawman fallacy in the same sentence. And naturally you made it self-authority.

You can still make arguments even if you don't like stats. You just have to say what you see specifically that makes you think certain players are better than others when doing all that game watching you do. Not making any arguments other than appeals to authority or popularity is lazy. You can say (repeatedly) it's not worth the effort to debate people on the internet, but when you continue to do so, albeit in a lazy manner, you just undermine your own opinions.

Said it far better than I