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People are really criticizing Westbrook for getting too many rebounds, scoring too many points while calling the league leader in assists selfish. He plays at full speed every game all game.

Just say you don’t like him. You don’t have to like him. But the “selfish” label doesn’t apply to the league leader in assists. The guy rebounds better than many front court players. When it was him, Durant and Harden they were championship contenders. He doesn’t have that anymore. Melo has been a team killer for a decade or more, and Paul George is very good but not Harden or Durant.
 
People are really criticizing Westbrook for getting too many rebounds, scoring too many points while calling the league leader in assists selfish. He plays at full speed every game all game.

Just say you don’t like him. You don’t have to like him. But the “selfish” label doesn’t apply to the league leader in assists. The guy rebounds better than many front court players. When it was him, Durant and Harden they were championship contenders. He doesn’t have that anymore. Melo has been a team killer for a decade or more, and Paul George is very good but not Harden or Durant.

The idea that you can't both be selfish and average a lot of assists should have been put to bed by Rondo years ago.

But I think any take on Westbrook that ends up being too far to one extreme or the other is wrong. Yes, there are questions about how good he is defensively (which is where he does a lot of his stat padding). The fact that he shoots under 30% from three is also impossible to overlook from a guard in today's NBA. We have seen his teams wilter in the half-court on offense (and this was even when he was playing with Durant) late in games against dialed-in playoff defenses too many times. There is some 'Melo to his game - he puts up his numbers, and all things considered, he does so efficiently, but at what cost? You have to cater your offense to him more than you do with other great players. That's why Durant left.

I feel for him, though, because he's really been a victim of circumstance far more than people will admit, not just because he's the lone holdover from the original core, but also because people forget how bad OKC's injury luck was post-Harden. There were numerous occasions pre-Kerr/Warriors when it felt like the Thunder were going to storm through the West. 2013 - I think this was the year Russ tore his ACL in one of the first playoff games - is your prime example, but even in 2014, when the Spurs were probably better, Ibaka went down at the worst time, and then 2015 was basically a lost season because of how banged up they were.

When they were healthy, Durant shared a lot of the blame. His deficiencies as a ball-handler made it difficult for him to navigate tight spaces against smaller guys in crunch-time, leaving Westbrook to do a lot of the heavy-lifting and unfairly be billed as selfish because of it. The fact that a 73 win Warrior team, that was thoroughly outplayed for most of that series and aided by a historically great shooting performance from Klay Thompson in a game six I'm still shocked they won, clipped them in seven should not detract from his greatness in the mind of any reasonable person (the fact that Steph outplayed him games 5-7 can, but then you'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt for all the other occasions, like last year, where he played really well and lost).

The fact that he, Durant, and Harden were all at one point on the same team and under 25 is hard to fathom. The fact that so many things needed to go wrong even after they traded Harden for them to get to where they are now is even more staggering. Regardless, the lesson here should be that there is a major difference between being a losing player and being an imperfect player. Whatever imperfections he has are not fatal like they have been with so many other great players. He's a winner and he's a champion, and that's coming from somebody who is far from his biggest fan.
 
there's nothing selfish about his effort and his desire. he also hits clutch shot after clutch shot. he does everything on the court.
 
there's nothing selfish about his effort and his desire. he also hits clutch shot after clutch shot. he does everything on the court.
Russ won the MVP last year! Although the storyline on that has veered toward negative (i.e. oops, Kahwi or Harden should have won it) he still won the thing which is the highest accolade they've got. I don't think you get it. Most people really like Westbrook, he's incredibly entertaining to watch, athletically has no challengers, plays out-of-this-world hard, very successful. Getting 20 rebounds in final game to get triple double for the season is part of the Russ experience - its both light & dark.
Harden is someone who I think more people (myself included) appreciate but don't really like him or his game.

Analogy: I can like and appreciate Justin Timberlake (love him on SNL or hosting something) but I don't own any of his albums (or download his songs, whatever the kids do these days ;).
 
...But I think any take on Westbrook that ends up being too far to one extreme or the other is wrong. Yes, there are questions about how good he is defensively (which is where he does a lot of his stat padding). The fact that he shoots under 30% from three is also impossible to overlook from a guard in today's NBA. We have seen his teams wilter in the half-court on offense (and this was even when he was playing with Durant) late in games against dialed-in playoff defenses too many times.
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Regardless, the lesson here should be that there is a major difference between being a losing player and being an imperfect player. Whatever imperfections he has are not fatal like they have been with so many other great players. He's a winner and he's a champion, and that's coming from somebody who is far from his biggest fan.

This is the best way to look at it.

He's a great NBA player. Without a doubt. I even think he deserved MVP last year (he literally broke BoxPM and had a higher RPM than Harden).

He was markedly worse this year, despite again averaging a triple double. He took less 3s and shot worse on them; He got to the line less frequently and shot worse on FTs; He turned the ball over at a higher rate; He rebounded and assisted at lower rates even accounting for less usage. By most metrics this was his worst season in his last 4. The only things he did better this year was take and make more shots at the rim and make more of the terrible long 2s he takes.

Bur he still rates as an All-NBA player in PIPM.

As an aside, what is he a champion of? The Western Conference, PAC 12, and the Western Regional? I guess the Olympics?
 
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The idea that you can't both be selfish and average a lot of assists should have been put to bed by Rondo years ago.

But I think any take on Westbrook that ends up being too far to one extreme or the other is wrong. Yes, there are questions about how good he is defensively (which is where he does a lot of his stat padding). The fact that he shoots under 30% from three is also impossible to overlook from a guard in today's NBA. We have seen his teams wilter in the half-court on offense (and this was even when he was playing with Durant) late in games against dialed-in playoff defenses too many times. There is some 'Melo to his game - he puts up his numbers, and all things considered, he does so efficiently, but at what cost? You have to cater your offense to him more than you do with other great players. That's why Durant left.

I feel for him, though, because he's really been a victim of circumstance far more than people will admit, not just because he's the lone holdover from the original core, but also because people forget how bad OKC's injury luck was post-Harden. There were numerous occasions pre-Kerr/Warriors when it felt like the Thunder were going to storm through the West. 2013 - I think this was the year Russ tore his ACL in one of the first playoff games - is your prime example, but even in 2014, when the Spurs were probably better, Ibaka went down at the worst time, and then 2015 was basically a lost season because of how banged up they were.

When they were healthy, Durant shared a lot of the blame. His deficiencies as a ball-handler made it difficult for him to navigate tight spaces against smaller guys in crunch-time, leaving Westbrook to do a lot of the heavy-lifting and unfairly be billed as selfish because of it. The fact that a 73 win Warrior team, that was thoroughly outplayed for most of that series and aided by a historically great shooting performance from Klay Thompson in a game six I'm still shocked they won, clipped them in seven should not detract from his greatness in the mind of any reasonable person (the fact that Steph outplayed him games 5-7 can, but then you'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt for all the other occasions, like last year, where he played really well and lost).

The fact that he, Durant, and Harden were all at one point on the same team and under 25 is hard to fathom. The fact that so many things needed to go wrong even after they traded Harden for them to get to where they are now is even more staggering. Regardless, the lesson here should be that there is a major difference between being a losing player and being an imperfect player. Whatever imperfections he has are not fatal like they have been with so many other great players. He's a winner and he's a champion, and that's coming from somebody who is far from his biggest fan.
Well, he’s not actually a champion
 
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Russ won the MVP last year! Although the storyline on that has veered toward negative (i.e. oops, Kahwi or Harden should have won it) he still won the thing which is the highest accolade they've got. I don't think you get it. Most people really like Westbrook, he's incredibly entertaining to watch, athletically has no challengers, plays out-of-this-world hard, very successful. Getting 20 rebounds in final game to get triple double for the season is part of the Russ experience - its both light & dark.
Harden is someone who I think more people (myself included) appreciate but don't really like him or his game.

Analogy: I can like and appreciate Justin Timberlake (love him on SNL or hosting something) but I don't own any of his albums (or download his songs, whatever the kids do these days ;).
I don't think you get it. He didn't need 20 rebounds to get the triple double average. He only needed 16. But he got 20 because that's the type of player he is. He goes for every loose ball. If you're arguing that is a bad/selfish thing, then it's you who doesn't get it. The fact is over 82 games, he only needed 16 rebounds in the final one (if that) to ensure he averaged 10 or more. Getting 16 is not some crazy statistical outlier. His last two games he grabbed 18 and 20. But through the season he grabbed 17 several times, and 15/16 a bunch of times, not just in April. Looking at his assists, he dished out 21 in February, 20 in January, and 15/16 a few times in October and December. Was he chasing stats then? Or was he trying to win games?

Being motivated to do something NOBODY IN THE NBA HAS EVER DONE (and directly contributing to the success of the team) is somehow him being a selfish player. No. Getting 20 rebounds doesn't hurt the team. If it hurt the team you could call him selfish. Dishing out 10 assists/game doesn't hurt the team. Nothing selfish about it.

And nobody has mentioned the fact they WON the last three games of the season while he was "being selfish" (including a win over the best team in the league, Houston).
 
I don't think you get it. He didn't need 20 rebounds to get the triple double average. He only needed 16. But he got 20 because that's the type of player he is. He goes for every loose ball. If you're arguing that is a bad/selfish thing, then it's you who doesn't get it. The fact is over 82 games, he only needed 16 rebounds in the final one (if that) to ensure he averaged 10 or more. Getting 16 is not some crazy statistical outlier. His last two games he grabbed 18 and 20. But through the season he grabbed 17 several times, and 15/16 a bunch of times, not just in April. Looking at his assists, he dished out 21 in February, 20 in January, and 15/16 a few times in October and December. Was he chasing stats then? Or was he trying to win games?

Being motivated to do something NOBODY IN THE NBA HAS EVER DONE (and directly contributing to the success of the team) is somehow him being a selfish player. No. Getting 20 rebounds doesn't hurt the team. If it hurt the team you could call him selfish. Dishing out 10 assists/game doesn't hurt the team. Nothing selfish about it.

And nobody has mentioned the fact they WON the last three games of the season while he was "being selfish" (including a win over the best team in the league, Houston).
Watch the video, he literally boxed out Carmelo for one of the rebounds.
 
there's nothing selfish about his effort and his desire. he also hits clutch shot after clutch shot. he does everything on the court.

I don't think many people who closely follow the NBA think he's selfish. Perhaps they might use the word to mean something slightly different, but that's because the word is incorrectly used a lot. Chasing a couple rebounds during the slog of an 82 game season is a lot different than hunting your numbers at the expense of your team.

You could make the argument that any player is selfish. You could argue that a player who is super efficient is hurting his team by not shooting enough. I used to, and sometimes still do, make that argument about LeBron all the time. It's actually really easy to become enamored by your efficiency in the analytics era and pass up shots to helpless players late in the shot clock. That's about as selfish as it gets - there are guys who do that and Russ is not one of them.

One sneaky way to track that sort of thing is by how often he'll wait an extra second for the clock to expire before launching a 50 foot heave. Kemba has taken 38 heaves in his career. That's not good for the field goal percentage or the three point percentage. LeBron has played twice as many games and only attempted 33. Does that mean LeBron is selfish? No. But you know there are people who will call Kemba selfish because he's a scoring point guard, and those people are dumb.
 
Watch the video, he literally boxed out Carmelo for one of the rebounds.
I've seen it. So? Really. So what? He wanted the ball and got it. So the what? Did Melo get hurt? Did the team lose the game?

Only one other player has averaged a triple double over a season. Nobody has ever done what he's done. He's made history. God forbid he box out a teammate and grab a rebound while leading his team to another victory and playoff spot.

You want to talk about selfish players? Talk about Melo. Guy kills teams everywhere he goes. The last time he played defense Steve Lavin was coaching UCLA.
 
I don't think many people who closely follow the NBA think he's selfish. Perhaps they might use the word to mean something slightly different, but that's because the word is incorrectly used a lot. Chasing a couple rebounds during the slog of an 82 game season is a lot different than hunting your numbers at the expense of your team.

His effort over the last few games was not substantially different than his effort over the course of the season. And he didn't do anything that hurt his team.
 
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I've seen it. So? Really. So what? He wanted the ball and got it. So the what? Did Melo get hurt? Did the team lose the game?

Only one other player has averaged a triple double over a season. Nobody has ever done what he's done. He's made history. God forbid he box out a teammate and grab a rebound while leading his team to another victory and playoff spot.

You want to talk about selfish players? Talk about Melo. Guy kills teams everywhere he goes. The last time he played defense Steve Lavin was coaching UCLA.
I've played basketball for a zillion years and not once have I ever even accidentally boxed out someone on my own team, it just doesn't happen. However its not a big deal, just a weird anecdote illustrating that at times Westbrook cares about stats a little too much. Westbrook doesn't fit the definition of selfish (agree Carmelo does), but Westbrook does play hero ball more often than he should.
 
Nope

I think LBJ is an insufferable doosh...but I don't think it's even close. He coasts* during a lot of the regular season (as he should at his age), but when he turns it on, he's a force of nature.

*which is a better level than pretty much everybody anyway
 
I think LBJ is an insufferable doosh...but I don't think it's even close. He coasts* during a lot of the regular season (as he should at his age), but when he turns it on, he's a force of nature.

*which is a better level than pretty much everybody anyway
Yeah, I mean i’m a LeBron fan, I think he’s a great guy and role model, but even so, he’s on another level to every player.
 
His effort over the last few games was not substantially different than his effort over the course of the season. And he didn't do anything that hurt his team.

He didn't do anything to hurt his team because the game didn't matter. That's the whole reason nobody cares. If he were chasing rebounds like that in a playoff game, then yeah, it would hurt his team.

Again, I like Russ, I don't think he's any more or less selfish than anybody else in the NBA. But everyone chases numbers sometimes - it's OK to admit.
 
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Durant is better than LeBron now.

I was more willing to entertain that thought after the finals last year. In light of the Warriors stumbling down the stretch without Steph, and LeBron taking his game up a level after the all-star break, I don't think there's much of an argument right now that LeBron isn't the best player in the world.

We'll see what happens in the playoffs. I think Cleveland is more vulnerable than people realize - provided Durant plays all-NBA level defense again in the postseason, he will have to be considered. LeBron is not the same player defensively anymore and hasn't been for a while. I still think that for as good as he is now 2012 was his peak.
 
I was more willing to entertain that thought after the finals last year. In light of the Warriors stumbling down the stretch without Steph, and LeBron taking his game up a level after the all-star break, I don't think there's much of an argument right now that LeBron isn't the best player in the world.
Meh. They're stumbling, but what the hell did the Cavs do? The Warriors finished with 8 more wins in a more difficult conference. They've had the 2-seed locked up forever. We give LeBron slack for coasting, we should give anyone on the Warriors even more. They've won 2 of the last 3 titles (and if not for a Draymond Green suspension, 3 in a row). The Rockets look good, but if Curry is back healthy, they'll win again this spring.

LeBron is probably still the best player. Let's see what happens when Durant actually cares. He outplayed LeBron in the Finals last year, he may do so again.
 
Meh. They're stumbling, but what the hell did the Cavs do? The Warriors finished with 8 more wins in a more difficult conference. They've had the 2-seed locked up forever. We give LeBron slack for coasting, we should give anyone on the Warriors even more. They've won 2 of the last 3 titles (and if not for a Draymond Green suspension, 3 in a row). The Rockets look good, but if Curry is back healthy, they'll win again this spring.

LeBron is probably still the best player. Let's see what happens when Durant actually cares. He outplayed LeBron in the Finals last year, he may do so again.
The one place where LeBron is still vastly superior to Durant is mentally; both strategic play-thinking & his mental toughness. That's why Durant & the Warriors not caring or thinking there is an ON switch is a slippery slope. Durant hasn't carried a championship team by himself for anywhere near the quantities of playoff and regular season tenures of LeBron. We don't know what will happen if Curry isn't healthy and a Durant led Warriors team gets in a hole. The Warriors coasted because they think they are better than anyone else, but that is only true if Curry is 100% (as we've seen in past, with Curry at even 90% they aren't the same team).

Assuming Curry is hobbled this should be a really unpredictable, championship likelihood ascending order:
4. Cavs are vulnerable, defensively atrocious
3. Toronto untested, & LeBron owns them physically & mentally (my pick outta east)
2. Houston's leadership has at best a unproven playoff performances
1. Curry unhealthy rest of Warriors playing on/off gambit (my pick outta West)

I don't think anyone else has even a slim shot at championship, i.e. Philly is getting a lot of love (projected to make conf finals) before ever winning a single playoff game, color me skeptical
 
Durant hasn't carried a championship team by himself for anywhere near the quantities of playoff and regular season tenures of LeBron.
Has LeBron? His without Wade, his team flamed out a number of times in the EC Playoffs. He had some great performances, but he was also in the East, which wasn't a particularly good conference.

Then, even with Wade, he lost to Dallas and SA, and only won once against GS when Kyrie hit a big shot, and only even had a chance there because Draymond kicked a guy in the nads.

Durant has always been in the West, and he led a team to the Finals against a great Spurs team only to lose to the Heat.

LeBron has been there (NBA Finals) more, and had some great performances. Greater historically than Durant. But we're talking right now. While I take Durant now, he won Finals MVP last year and outplayed James in end of game situations last year.

That's why Durant & the Warriors not caring or thinking there is an ON switch is a slippery slope.

I mean, again, the Cavs haven't cared in the regular season since James got back, and the Heat hardly did either after the first two years. I'm just not seeing a difference. When they match up against the Rockets, it'll be a tough matchup, but provided Curry is healthy, I'm taking the Warriors in 6, and probably Durant winning Finals MVP again.

He's got 24-8-7 right now and they're beating the Spurs by 30.
 
Warriors beat Rudy and the Spurs

Wizards at Toronto now

Heat at Sixers at 8

Shabazz vs Emeka at 10:30
 
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What channels we got for the games? ESPN doesn’t have them all right? Turner fam?
 
Meh. They're stumbling, but what the hell did the Cavs do? The Warriors finished with 8 more wins in a more difficult conference. They've had the 2-seed locked up forever. We give LeBron slack for coasting, we should give anyone on the Warriors even more. They've won 2 of the last 3 titles (and if not for a Draymond Green suspension, 3 in a row). The Rockets look good, but if Curry is back healthy, they'll win again this spring.

LeBron is probably still the best player. Let's see what happens when Durant actually cares. He outplayed LeBron in the Finals last year, he may do so again.

LeBron dragged a nothing team playing without their second best player for a large chunk of time to 50 wins. He posted 31/10/10 on 54/39/72 shooting splits over the last 25 games or so while leading the league in minutes, propping up a putrid second unit, and destroying crunch-time to the point that they over-performed their expected wins by a bunch. Replace him with a mortal superstar like, say, Westbrook, and they're fighting to get in.

The Warriors on the other hand are so good without Durant that you have columns out there defending the idea that they miss him at all (the idea that they are as good without him is obviously dumb, but you get the sense that the Cavs would completely implode without LeBron - put LeBron with Steph, Klay, and Draymond and somebody might die).

Durant did outplay LeBron in the finals last year, but Durant really, really had things made for him there. LeBron put up 34, 12, and 10 on 56% from the floor and 39% from three against one of the best, most versatile defenses ever. Now that I think of it maybe Durant didn't outplay him.
 
The one place where LeBron is still vastly superior to Durant is mentally; both strategic play-thinking & his mental toughness. That's why Durant & the Warriors not caring or thinking there is an ON switch is a slippery slope. Durant hasn't carried a championship team by himself for anywhere near the quantities of playoff and regular season tenures of LeBron. We don't know what will happen if Curry isn't healthy and a Durant led Warriors team gets in a hole. The Warriors coasted because they think they are better than anyone else, but that is only true if Curry is 100% (as we've seen in past, with Curry at even 90% they aren't the same team).

Assuming Curry is hobbled this should be a really unpredictable, championship likelihood ascending order:
4. Cavs are vulnerable, defensively atrocious
3. Toronto untested, & LeBron owns them physically & mentally (my pick outta east)
2. Houston's leadership has at best a unproven playoff performances
1. Curry unhealthy rest of Warriors playing on/off gambit (my pick outta West)

I don't think anyone else has even a slim shot at championship, i.e. Philly is getting a lot of love (projected to make conf finals) before ever winning a single playoff game, color me skeptical

I really think the Sixers can get to the finals.
 
Durant did outplay LeBron in the finals last year, but Durant really, really had things made for him there. LeBron put up 34, 12, and 10 on 56% from the floor and 39% from three against one of the best, most versatile defenses ever. Now that I think of it maybe Durant didn't outplay him.

I'm an avowed LeBron dis-liker (can't really say hater), but I think that paragraph has it right.

I feel like LeBron can get whatever he needs to get on a given night. If he needs to get 15 assists/20 boards, he could. Triple double? No problem.

There's nothing he can't do as a player. Though, I'm not that impressed with him as a leader; he makes up for it with his game.
 
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