NBA Playoffs

[Dogdeacon]

When did they but heads? After he left? Durant screwed up not telling him, but Durant is a weird guy.

He's the only player in the league averaging 10 assists. Horrible teammate.

Lebron's team is 4th in the east, that's not an indictment on Lebron. Karl Towns is leading a talented roster to an 8 seed, is that his fault? It's on the rest of the team to play up to their expectations.

I swear the only people who say stuff like this never watch him play.

Durant may or may not be weird but I think he is truthful, Durant has said a big reason he went to Golden State b/c he liked the way they moved the ball and believes that's the way the game should be played. It is not hard to connect the dots and see that in OKC it was a your turn, my turn situation and as great as he is, playing hero ball at the end of games is feast or famine with Russ and has to be frustrating if you are a better player but not the PG so sometimes you are going to need him to get you the ball.

Westbrook isn't a horrible teammate by any stretch, but by superstar amongst 5 best players in the league standards he is selfish. The rebounds last night are exhibit A for a player that cares a lot about his stats. He might be weirder than Russ, but on the basketball court the number of 'me' acts or plays by Durant pales to Russ's.

LeBron - no not an indictment on LeBron the player, but some on LeBron the GM who always sacrifices the now for the future and encouraged the overpayment of his guys (great personal attribute, bad business as puppeteer GM). But I think LeBron is the MVP because he's the best player in the league & although the 4th place finish is a slight underachievement, playing 82 games is awesome and of course without him Cleveland is mid-lottery at best.

KAT - I think yes partially his fault but I don't see many MN games. Townes didn't take or make the big shots last night with a ton on the line, though he did get a big rebound. MN Team leader and the man is obviously Butler, but Townes is young and glad he's in the playoffs to learn more about winning. Ditto for AD.

 

[Mr. French]

This is a tough one for me ... I think he does chase his stats a little, but do those stats hurt his team? He’s still going balls to the wall...

I guess for me the hypothetical question is: if he changed his game to not do that, what does that look like? How does that change how he plays and how it affects his team?

Not sure what he’s doing has any detriment. I guess that’s what I tussle with in this scenario.

 

[husky429]

I think Westbrook is an unbelievable player. Unreal how hard he can go for 40+ minutes, sometimes.

He may pad stats a little. But he plays hard and he DOES want to win.

I think the style of play is just not made for this era, and won't lead to a championship-type team. He's not "the" best because of that, but he's sure close to it.

 

[Dogdeacon]

This is a tough one for me ... I think he does chase his stats a little, but do those stats hurt his team? He’s still going balls to the wall...

I guess for me the hypothetical question is: if he changed his game to not do that, what does that look like? How does that change how he plays and how it affects his team?

Not sure what he’s doing has any detriment. I guess that’s what I tussle with in this scenario.

A. Basketball is a team sport, passing sharing the ball is infectious and we all love, know and recognize those special teams and players that share the ball.
Rajon Rondo is similar to Russ in this way, a player that is great at the skill of assists, but sometimes hunts for assists rather than making the correct basketball play. Its absolutely frustrating for other players to play with someone that doesn't move the ball and hunts for the scoring play that only involves passing when it leads to a basket. Where Rondo was different of course is not the same type of scorer, shoots way less so much lower usage rate = more opportunity for others & team play.
B. Russ's usage rate ws insanely high (42.3% last yr highest EVER, now down to manageable 34% ), teams cannot win this way. Bill Simmons wrote about it last year pre-playoffs accurately predicting OKC's postseason flameout.
50 Shades of Westbrook
C. 90% of the game the Russ show is fine and effective, but in 4th Q too predictable easier to stop, magnified, more true come playoff time.

My short answer to your hypothetical: I don't think he can change. Ala Allen Iverson he is ball dominant and once he can't do that he's got no 2nd act.
IF someday Russ becomes unselfish enough (and he's certainly smart enough) to change his style of play I think it HAS to occur with an ALPHA that he defers to. Pretty hard to imagine since he had in Durant arguably the 2nd best player in the NBA & couldn't defer. I assume back in the day Harden was on the floor without Russ too? Is there a superstar that could co-exist with a more deferential Russ (AD - no, Russ needs lane clear, LeBron & Harden need the ball, Giannis-Russ would stifle, Kristaps would defer to Russ, Embid? etc...)? Maybe if this Doncic kid is Larry Bird 2.0 that's the type of contagious passing player that could transition Russ into more of a winner - less impressive stats wise but a potential champion. As-is I don't think he's ever winning squat (though I do think OKC can beat Jazz & give Rockets run esp if Harden wilts per usual).

 

[Deepster]

My take is that Westbrook just doesn’t fit the storybook mold, that’s why it’s not a bigger story. Much like how Miguel Cabrera doesn’t get 1/1,000th of the cred Yaz did for having a triple crown in baseball.

 

[BlueMAB]

People are really criticizing Westbrook for getting too many rebounds, scoring too many points while calling the league leader in assists selfish. He plays at full speed every game all game.

Just say you don’t like him. You don’t have to like him. But the “selfish” label doesn’t apply to the league leader in assists. The guy rebounds better than many front court players. When it was him, Durant and Harden they were championship contenders. He doesn’t have that anymore. Melo has been a team killer for a decade or more, and Paul George is very good but not Harden or Durant.

 

[champs99and04]

People are really criticizing Westbrook for getting too many rebounds, scoring too many points while calling the league leader in assists selfish. He plays at full speed every game all game.

Just say you don’t like him. You don’t have to like him. But the “selfish” label doesn’t apply to the league leader in assists. The guy rebounds better than many front court players. When it was him, Durant and Harden they were championship contenders. He doesn’t have that anymore. Melo has been a team killer for a decade or more, and Paul George is very good but not Harden or Durant.

The idea that you can't both be selfish and average a lot of assists should have been put to bed by Rondo years ago.

But I think any take on Westbrook that ends up being too far to one extreme or the other is wrong. Yes, there are questions about how good he is defensively (which is where he does a lot of his stat padding). The fact that he shoots under 30% from three is also impossible to overlook from a guard in today's NBA. We have seen his teams wilter in the half-court on offense (and this was even when he was playing with Durant) late in games against dialed-in playoff defenses too many times. There is some 'Melo to his game - he puts up his numbers, and all things considered, he does so efficiently, but at what cost? You have to cater your offense to him more than you do with other great players. That's why Durant left.

I feel for him, though, because he's really been a victim of circumstance far more than people will admit, not just because he's the lone holdover from the original core, but also because people forget how bad OKC's injury luck was post-Harden. There were numerous occasions pre-Kerr/Warriors when it felt like the Thunder were going to storm through the West. 2013 - I think this was the year Russ tore his ACL in one of the first playoff games - is your prime example, but even in 2014, when the Spurs were probably better, Ibaka went down at the worst time, and then 2015 was basically a lost season because of how banged up they were.

When they were healthy, Durant shared a lot of the blame. His deficiencies as a ball-handler made it difficult for him to navigate tight spaces against smaller guys in crunch-time, leaving Westbrook to do a lot of the heavy-lifting and unfairly be billed as selfish because of it. The fact that a 73 win Warrior team, that was thoroughly outplayed for most of that series and aided by a historically great shooting performance from Klay Thompson in a game six I'm still shocked they won, clipped them in seven should not detract from his greatness in the mind of any reasonable person (the fact that Steph outplayed him games 5-7 can, but then you'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt for all the other occasions, like last year, where he played really well and lost).

The fact that he, Durant, and Harden were all at one point on the same team and under 25 is hard to fathom. The fact that so many things needed to go wrong even after they traded Harden for them to get to where they are now is even more staggering. Regardless, the lesson here should be that there is a major difference between being a losing player and being an imperfect player. Whatever imperfections he has are not fatal like they have been with so many other great players. He's a winner and he's a champion, and that's coming from somebody who is far from his biggest fan.

 

[BlueMAB]

there's nothing selfish about his effort and his desire. he also hits clutch shot after clutch shot. he does everything on the court.

 

[Dogdeacon]

there's nothing selfish about his effort and his desire. he also hits clutch shot after clutch shot. he does everything on the court.

Russ won the MVP last year! Although the storyline on that has veered toward negative (i.e. oops, Kahwi or Harden should have won it) he still won the thing which is the highest accolade they've got. I don't think you get it. Most people really like Westbrook, he's incredibly entertaining to watch, athletically has no challengers, plays out-of-this-world hard, very successful. Getting 20 rebounds in final game to get triple double for the season is part of the Russ experience - its both light & dark.
Harden is someone who I think more people (myself included) appreciate but don't really like him or his game.

Analogy: I can like and appreciate Justin Timberlake (love him on SNL or hosting something) but I don't own any of his albums (or download his songs, whatever the kids do these days .

 

[auror]

...But I think any take on Westbrook that ends up being too far to one extreme or the other is wrong. Yes, there are questions about how good he is defensively (which is where he does a lot of his stat padding). The fact that he shoots under 30% from three is also impossible to overlook from a guard in today's NBA. We have seen his teams wilter in the half-court on offense (and this was even when he was playing with Durant) late in games against dialed-in playoff defenses too many times.
---
Regardless, the lesson here should be that there is a major difference between being a losing player and being an imperfect player. Whatever imperfections he has are not fatal like they have been with so many other great players. He's a winner and he's a champion, and that's coming from somebody who is far from his biggest fan.

This is the best way to look at it.

He's a great NBA player. Without a doubt. I even think he deserved MVP last year (he literally broke BoxPM and had a higher RPM than Harden).

He was markedly worse this year, despite again averaging a triple double. He took less 3s and shot worse on them; He got to the line less frequently and shot worse on FTs; He turned the ball over at a higher rate; He rebounded and assisted at lower rates even accounting for less usage. By most metrics this was his worst season in his last 4. The only things he did better this year was take and make more shots at the rim and make more of the terrible long 2s he takes.

Bur he still rates as an All-NBA player in PIPM.

As an aside, what is he a champion of? The Western Conference, PAC 12, and the Western Regional? I guess the Olympics?

 

[CardiacAndre7]

The idea that you can't both be selfish and average a lot of assists should have been put to bed by Rondo years ago.

But I think any take on Westbrook that ends up being too far to one extreme or the other is wrong. Yes, there are questions about how good he is defensively (which is where he does a lot of his stat padding). The fact that he shoots under 30% from three is also impossible to overlook from a guard in today's NBA. We have seen his teams wilter in the half-court on offense (and this was even when he was playing with Durant) late in games against dialed-in playoff defenses too many times. There is some 'Melo to his game - he puts up his numbers, and all things considered, he does so efficiently, but at what cost? You have to cater your offense to him more than you do with other great players. That's why Durant left.

I feel for him, though, because he's really been a victim of circumstance far more than people will admit, not just because he's the lone holdover from the original core, but also because people forget how bad OKC's injury luck was post-Harden. There were numerous occasions pre-Kerr/Warriors when it felt like the Thunder were going to storm through the West. 2013 - I think this was the year Russ tore his ACL in one of the first playoff games - is your prime example, but even in 2014, when the Spurs were probably better, Ibaka went down at the worst time, and then 2015 was basically a lost season because of how banged up they were.

When they were healthy, Durant shared a lot of the blame. His deficiencies as a ball-handler made it difficult for him to navigate tight spaces against smaller guys in crunch-time, leaving Westbrook to do a lot of the heavy-lifting and unfairly be billed as selfish because of it. The fact that a 73 win Warrior team, that was thoroughly outplayed for most of that series and aided by a historically great shooting performance from Klay Thompson in a game six I'm still shocked they won, clipped them in seven should not detract from his greatness in the mind of any reasonable person (the fact that Steph outplayed him games 5-7 can, but then you'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt for all the other occasions, like last year, where he played really well and lost).

The fact that he, Durant, and Harden were all at one point on the same team and under 25 is hard to fathom. The fact that so many things needed to go wrong even after they traded Harden for them to get to where they are now is even more staggering. Regardless, the lesson here should be that there is a major difference between being a losing player and being an imperfect player. Whatever imperfections he has are not fatal like they have been with so many other great players. He's a winner and he's a champion, and that's coming from somebody who is far from his biggest fan.

Well, he’s not actually a champion

 

[BlueMAB]

Russ won the MVP last year! Although the storyline on that has veered toward negative (i.e. oops, Kahwi or Harden should have won it) he still won the thing which is the highest accolade they've got. I don't think you get it. Most people really like Westbrook, he's incredibly entertaining to watch, athletically has no challengers, plays out-of-this-world hard, very successful. Getting 20 rebounds in final game to get triple double for the season is part of the Russ experience - its both light & dark.
Harden is someone who I think more people (myself included) appreciate but don't really like him or his game.

Analogy: I can like and appreciate Justin Timberlake (love him on SNL or hosting something) but I don't own any of his albums (or download his songs, whatever the kids do these days .

I don't think you get it. He didn't need 20 rebounds to get the triple double average. He only needed 16. But he got 20 because that's the type of player he is. He goes for every loose ball. If you're arguing that is a bad/selfish thing, then it's you who doesn't get it. The fact is over 82 games, he only needed 16 rebounds in the final one (if that) to ensure he averaged 10 or more. Getting 16 is not some crazy statistical outlier. His last two games he grabbed 18 and 20. But through the season he grabbed 17 several times, and 15/16 a bunch of times, not just in April. Looking at his assists, he dished out 21 in February, 20 in January, and 15/16 a few times in October and December. Was he chasing stats then? Or was he trying to win games?

Being motivated to do something NOBODY IN THE NBA HAS EVER DONE (and directly contributing to the success of the team) is somehow him being a selfish player. No. Getting 20 rebounds doesn't hurt the team. If it hurt the team you could call him selfish. Dishing out 10 assists/game doesn't hurt the team. Nothing selfish about it.

And nobody has mentioned the fact they WON the last three games of the season while he was "being selfish" (including a win over the best team in the league, Houston).

 

[Dogdeacon]

I don't think you get it. He didn't need 20 rebounds to get the triple double average. He only needed 16. But he got 20 because that's the type of player he is. He goes for every loose ball. If you're arguing that is a bad/selfish thing, then it's you who doesn't get it. The fact is over 82 games, he only needed 16 rebounds in the final one (if that) to ensure he averaged 10 or more. Getting 16 is not some crazy statistical outlier. His last two games he grabbed 18 and 20. But through the season he grabbed 17 several times, and 15/16 a bunch of times, not just in April. Looking at his assists, he dished out 21 in February, 20 in January, and 15/16 a few times in October and December. Was he chasing stats then? Or was he trying to win games?

Being motivated to do something NOBODY IN THE NBA HAS EVER DONE (and directly contributing to the success of the team) is somehow him being a selfish player. No. Getting 20 rebounds doesn't hurt the team. If it hurt the team you could call him selfish. Dishing out 10 assists/game doesn't hurt the team. Nothing selfish about it.

And nobody has mentioned the fact they WON the last three games of the season while he was "being selfish" (including a win over the best team in the league, Houston).

Watch the video, he literally boxed out Carmelo for one of the rebounds.

 

[champs99and04]

Well, he’s not actually a champion

And this is why we live in a time where the second best player in the world decided to join a 73 win team.

 

[champs99and04]

there's nothing selfish about his effort and his desire. he also hits clutch shot after clutch shot. he does everything on the court.

I don't think many people who closely follow the NBA think he's selfish. Perhaps they might use the word to mean something slightly different, but that's because the word is incorrectly used a lot. Chasing a couple rebounds during the slog of an 82 game season is a lot different than hunting your numbers at the expense of your team.

You could make the argument that any player is selfish. You could argue that a player who is super efficient is hurting his team by not shooting enough. I used to, and sometimes still do, make that argument about LeBron all the time. It's actually really easy to become enamored by your efficiency in the analytics era and pass up shots to helpless players late in the shot clock. That's about as selfish as it gets - there are guys who do that and Russ is not one of them.

One sneaky way to track that sort of thing is by how often he'll wait an extra second for the clock to expire before launching a 50 foot heave. Kemba has taken 38 heaves in his career. That's not good for the field goal percentage or the three point percentage. LeBron has played twice as many games and only attempted 33. Does that mean LeBron is selfish? No. But you know there are people who will call Kemba selfish because he's a scoring point guard, and those people are dumb.

 

[BlueMAB]

Watch the video, he literally boxed out Carmelo for one of the rebounds.

I've seen it. So? Really. So what? He wanted the ball and got it. So the what? Did Melo get hurt? Did the team lose the game?

Only one other player has averaged a triple double over a season. Nobody has ever done what he's done. He's made history. God forbid he box out a teammate and grab a rebound while leading his team to another victory and playoff spot.

You want to talk about selfish players? Talk about Melo. Guy kills teams everywhere he goes. The last time he played defense Steve Lavin was coaching UCLA.

 

[BlueMAB]

I don't think many people who closely follow the NBA think he's selfish. Perhaps they might use the word to mean something slightly different, but that's because the word is incorrectly used a lot. Chasing a couple rebounds during the slog of an 82 game season is a lot different than hunting your numbers at the expense of your team.

His effort over the last few games was not substantially different than his effort over the course of the season. And he didn't do anything that hurt his team.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I've seen it. So? Really. So what? He wanted the ball and got it. So the what? Did Melo get hurt? Did the team lose the game?

Only one other player has averaged a triple double over a season. Nobody has ever done what he's done. He's made history. God forbid he box out a teammate and grab a rebound while leading his team to another victory and playoff spot.

You want to talk about selfish players? Talk about Melo. Guy kills teams everywhere he goes. The last time he played defense Steve Lavin was coaching UCLA.

I've played basketball for a zillion years and not once have I ever even accidentally boxed out someone on my own team, it just doesn't happen. However its not a big deal, just a weird anecdote illustrating that at times Westbrook cares about stats a little too much. Westbrook doesn't fit the definition of selfish (agree Carmelo does), but Westbrook does play hero ball more often than he should.

 

[KemBaller]

And this is why we live in a time where the second best player in the world decided to join a 73 win team.

Durant is better than LeBron now.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Durant is better than LeBron now.

Nope

 

[intlzncster]

Nope

I think LBJ is an insufferable doosh...but I don't think it's even close. He coasts* during a lot of the regular season (as he should at his age), but when he turns it on, he's a force of nature.

*which is a better level than pretty much everybody anyway

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I think LBJ is an insufferable doosh...but I don't think it's even close. He coasts* during a lot of the regular season (as he should at his age), but when he turns it on, he's a force of nature.

*which is a better level than pretty much everybody anyway

Yeah, I mean i’m a LeBron fan, I think he’s a great guy and role model, but even so, he’s on another level to every player.

 

[champs99and04]

His effort over the last few games was not substantially different than his effort over the course of the season. And he didn't do anything that hurt his team.

He didn't do anything to hurt his team because the game didn't matter. That's the whole reason nobody cares. If he were chasing rebounds like that in a playoff game, then yeah, it would hurt his team.

Again, I like Russ, I don't think he's any more or less selfish than anybody else in the NBA. But everyone chases numbers sometimes - it's OK to admit.

 

[champs99and04]

Durant is better than LeBron now.

I was more willing to entertain that thought after the finals last year. In light of the Warriors stumbling down the stretch without Steph, and LeBron taking his game up a level after the all-star break, I don't think there's much of an argument right now that LeBron isn't the best player in the world.

We'll see what happens in the playoffs. I think Cleveland is more vulnerable than people realize - provided Durant plays all-NBA level defense again in the postseason, he will have to be considered. LeBron is not the same player defensively anymore and hasn't been for a while. I still think that for as good as he is now 2012 was his peak.

 

[tzznandrew]

I was more willing to entertain that thought after the finals last year. In light of the Warriors stumbling down the stretch without Steph, and LeBron taking his game up a level after the all-star break, I don't think there's much of an argument right now that LeBron isn't the best player in the world.

Meh. They're stumbling, but what the hell did the Cavs do? The Warriors finished with 8 more wins in a more difficult conference. They've had the 2-seed locked up forever. We give LeBron slack for coasting, we should give anyone on the Warriors even more. They've won 2 of the last 3 titles (and if not for a Draymond Green suspension, 3 in a row). The Rockets look good, but if Curry is back healthy, they'll win again this spring.

LeBron is probably still the best player. Let's see what happens when Durant actually cares. He outplayed LeBron in the Finals last year, he may do so again.