NBA Playoffs

[superjohn]

I'm not much of a Westbrook fan and his team hasn't improved but he just averaged a triple double in back to back seasons. Remember thinking I would never see a player in my lifetime average a triple double for a season, this should be talked about more.

 

[8893]

I like Bill's Seafood.

 

[UCDaveD]

A point guard with 17 boards mid way through the 3rd Q. About as legit as Michael Strahan’s record-breaking “sack”

Edit: Still a ridiculously great player.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

 

[Huskyforlife]

Greatness. Doesn't get enough credit.

 

[methodology]

Guy plays hard every play every minute. Can never question his effort and talent.

It's a shame he plays in OKC and doesn't get the recognition he deserves

 

[superjohn]

I like Bill's Seafood.

That was quite the reach.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Steven Adams just made himself about 25k

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

I'm sorry but I think Westbrook is overrated. It is pretty clear that he does pad his stats. I have seen him leave his man late in games multiple times to go for a rebound for his triple double. LeBron could go for 40 20 and 15 every game if he really wanted to (which he does sometimes). Also, look at the success players who have left the Thunder. Durant didn't work well with Westbrook, so he bounced town. Dion Waiters is a different player since he left playing with Westbrook. And the Thunder are massively underachieving with the level of pure talent they have this year.

On the flip side, he gives it 110% every night and is the most fun to watch player in the league in terms of athleticism and firepower. But he will never win anything in the league if he's the primary scorer.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I'm sorry but I think Westbrook is overrated. It is pretty clear that he does pad his stats. I have seen him leave his man late in games multiple times to go for a rebound for his triple double. LeBron could go for 40 20 and 15 every game if he really wanted to (which he does sometimes). Also, look at the success players who have left the Thunder. Durant didn't work well with Westbrook, so he bounced town. Dion Waiters is a different player since he left playing with Westbrook. And the Thunder are massively underachieving with the level of pure talent they have this year.

On the flip side, he gives it 110% every night and is the most fun to watch player in the league in terms of athleticism and firepower. But he will never win anything in the league if he's the primary scorer.

Spot on, fantastic player to watch and I like the guy but his style of play is selfish.

 

[FartMan69]

OKC should have been shot into the sun the second they traded Harden. You draft 3 MVP's and end up with only one and pair him with Melo and a Paul George rental.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I'm sorry but I think Westbrook is overrated. It is pretty clear that he does pad his stats. I have seen him leave his man late in games multiple times to go for a rebound for his triple double. LeBron could go for 40 20 and 15 every game if he really wanted to (which he does sometimes). Also, look at the success players who have left the Thunder. Durant didn't work well with Westbrook, so he bounced town. Dion Waiters is a different player since he left playing with Westbrook. And the Thunder are massively underachieving with the level of pure talent they have this year.

On the flip side, he gives it 110% every night and is the most fun to watch player in the league in terms of athleticism and firepower. But he will never win anything in the league if he's the primary scorer.

Don’t forget Oladipo

 

[Huskyforlife]

I'm sorry but I think Westbrook is overrated. It is pretty clear that he does pad his stats. I have seen him leave his man late in games multiple times to go for a rebound for his triple double. LeBron could go for 40 20 and 15 every game if he really wanted to (which he does sometimes). Also, look at the success players who have left the Thunder. Durant didn't work well with Westbrook, so he bounced town. Dion Waiters is a different player since he left playing with Westbrook. And the Thunder are massively underachieving with the level of pure talent they have this year.

On the flip side, he gives it 110% every night and is the most fun to watch player in the league in terms of athleticism and firepower. But he will never win anything in the league if he's the primary scorer.

Dion Waiters has sucked everywhere but Miami. An NBA superstar being lazy sometimes on defense applies to almost all of them. Your Durant point doesn't make sense, he left to play for Golden State, not to get away from Westbrook. It's not Westbrooks fault his teammates are under preforming, because it's clear he is not.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

Don’t forget Oladipo

I think that's who I meant instead of Waiters. But it applies to both.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

Dion Waiters has sucked everywhere but Miami. An NBA superstar being lazy sometimes on defense applies to almost all of them. Your Durant point doesn't make sense, he left to play for Golden State, not to get away from Westbrook. It's not Westbrooks fault his teammates are under preforming, because it's clear he is not.

Durant and Westbrook butting heads is certainly a reason KD left.
Westbrook is anointed the "leader" of the team. Even by the players he plays with. Yet how far does that get the team?
It's not a coincidence that players who play with Westbrook underperform. Because he's not a good player to play with, by superstar standards.

 

[Huskyforlife]

Durant and Westbrook butting heads is certainly a reason KD left.
Westbrook is anointed the "leader" of the team. Even by the players he plays with. Yet how far does that get the team?
It's not a coincidence that players who play with Westbrook underperform. Because he's not a good player to play with, by superstar standards.

When did they but heads? After he left? Durant screwed up not telling him, but Durant is a weird guy.

He's the only player in the league averaging 10 assists. Horrible teammate.

Lebron's team is 4th in the east, that's not an indictment on Lebron. Karl Towns is leading a talented roster to an 8 seed, is that his fault? It's on the rest of the team to play up to their expectations.

I swear the only people who say stuff like this never watch him play.

 

[superjohn]

Durant and Westbrook butting heads is certainly a reason KD left.
Westbrook is anointed the "leader" of the team. Even by the players he plays with. Yet how far does that get the team?
It's not a coincidence that players who play with Westbrook underperform. Because he's not a good player to play with, by superstar standards.

In fairness to him how far does anyone really get in the West besides the Warriors? The West is unreal.

 

[AdamaNation]

When did they but heads? After he left? Durant screwed up not telling him, but Durant is a weird guy.

He's the only player in the league averaging 10 assists. Horrible teammate.

Lebron's team is 4th in the east, that's not an indictment on Lebron. Karl Towns is leading a talented roster to an 8 seed, is that his fault? It's on the rest of the team to play up to their expectations.

I swear the only people who say stuff like this never watch him play.

Agreed. And there is that positive Melo factor as well.

 

[methodology]

Don’t forget Oladipo

I think that's who I meant instead of Waiters. But it applies to both.

Not a fair example. Oladipo has excelled having the ball in his hands. That was Westbrook role and Victor isn't good enough to take that from him

His usage rate has gone up 41% this year with the pacers to 30.1% which is also the highest in his career. Last year his usage rate was 21.4% which was a 9% decrease from his career average (up to that point) of 23.5%.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Not a fair example. Oladipo has excelled having the ball in his hands. That was Westbrook role and Victor isn't good enough to take that from him

His usage rate has gone up 41% this year with the pacers to 30.1% which is also the highest in his career. Last year his usage rate was 21.4% which was a 9% decrease from his career average (up to that point) of 23.5%.

Yes, and having the ball in his hands, which he didn’t have the opportunity to do with the Thunder, has in turn shown that he is a very, very good player. The ball dominance that Westbrook enjoys doesn’t allow for players like Oladipo to show their true skills. Paul George was a better player on the Pacers than he has shown to be on the Thunder as well.

 

[methodology]

@CardiacAndre7

I agree to some extent but if you look at all his advanced stats they are right in line with his career averages

 

[auror]

I swear the only people who say stuff like this never watch him play.

Guy plays hard every play every minute. Can never question his effort and talent.

It's a shame he plays in OKC and doesn't get the recognition he deserves

It's a shame he takes 13 shots away from the rim each game and makes 35%(!) of them (including less than 30% from 3 this year). Works out to 0.79 points per shot outside the rim.

For comparison, James Harden made right at 1.0 non-rim points per shot on a superstar level 15 shots per game, or Jayson Tatum made 0.99 pps >3 ft on a role player's 4 shots, or (this one is with paint numbers because don't have those stats for college players) Antoine Anderson made 0,91 points per shot on the season.

On those double digit number of shot attempts, 0.2 pps is massive.

 

[methodology]

@auror

If you are going to compare apples to oranges then covert it both to oranges

In that case Westbrook scored 0.96 points per shot

 

[auror]

@auror

If you are going to compare apples to oranges then covert it both to oranges

In that case Westbrook scored 0.96 points per shot

I compared apples to apples and NBA apples to college oranges. Still, I don't think being only 0.05 above Anderson helps your viewpoint of Westbrook. For completeness, Harden and Tatum both had 1.08 pps overall and the league leaders were in the 1.2-1.3 range (but most of them other than Curry feast at the rim).

This year, Westbrook took a superstar number of shots and made them like a below average player. Out of players who played at least 15 minutes a game over at least a third of the season, he was 251st in eFG%. Truly, that's more like fringe rotation level rather than below average, but he gets a bump for volume.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Durant didn't work well with Westbrook, so he bounced town.

Yeah, he went to a team that would have won without him, and won.
Year after that, the team doesn't look quite so good.
Will be interesting to see how that turns out. If the Ws lose with Durant on board this year, cannot look good for Durant.

 

[Dogdeacon]

When did they but heads? After he left? Durant screwed up not telling him, but Durant is a weird guy.

He's the only player in the league averaging 10 assists. Horrible teammate.

Lebron's team is 4th in the east, that's not an indictment on Lebron. Karl Towns is leading a talented roster to an 8 seed, is that his fault? It's on the rest of the team to play up to their expectations.

I swear the only people who say stuff like this never watch him play.

Durant may or may not be weird but I think he is truthful, Durant has said a big reason he went to Golden State b/c he liked the way they moved the ball and believes that's the way the game should be played. It is not hard to connect the dots and see that in OKC it was a your turn, my turn situation and as great as he is, playing hero ball at the end of games is feast or famine with Russ and has to be frustrating if you are a better player but not the PG so sometimes you are going to need him to get you the ball.

Westbrook isn't a horrible teammate by any stretch, but by superstar amongst 5 best players in the league standards he is selfish. The rebounds last night are exhibit A for a player that cares a lot about his stats. He might be weirder than Russ, but on the basketball court the number of 'me' acts or plays by Durant pales to Russ's.

LeBron - no not an indictment on LeBron the player, but some on LeBron the GM who always sacrifices the now for the future and encouraged the overpayment of his guys (great personal attribute, bad business as puppeteer GM). But I think LeBron is the MVP because he's the best player in the league & although the 4th place finish is a slight underachievement, playing 82 games is awesome and of course without him Cleveland is mid-lottery at best.

KAT - I think yes partially his fault but I don't see many MN games. Townes didn't take or make the big shots last night with a ton on the line, though he did get a big rebound. MN Team leader and the man is obviously Butler, but Townes is young and glad he's in the playoffs to learn more about winning. Ditto for AD.

 

[Mr. French]

This is a tough one for me ... I think he does chase his stats a little, but do those stats hurt his team? He’s still going balls to the wall...

I guess for me the hypothetical question is: if he changed his game to not do that, what does that look like? How does that change how he plays and how it affects his team?

Not sure what he’s doing has any detriment. I guess that’s what I tussle with in this scenario.

 

[husky429]

I think Westbrook is an unbelievable player. Unreal how hard he can go for 40+ minutes, sometimes.

He may pad stats a little. But he plays hard and he DOES want to win.

I think the style of play is just not made for this era, and won't lead to a championship-type team. He's not "the" best because of that, but he's sure close to it.

 

[Dogdeacon]

This is a tough one for me ... I think he does chase his stats a little, but do those stats hurt his team? He’s still going balls to the wall...

I guess for me the hypothetical question is: if he changed his game to not do that, what does that look like? How does that change how he plays and how it affects his team?

Not sure what he’s doing has any detriment. I guess that’s what I tussle with in this scenario.

A. Basketball is a team sport, passing sharing the ball is infectious and we all love, know and recognize those special teams and players that share the ball.
Rajon Rondo is similar to Russ in this way, a player that is great at the skill of assists, but sometimes hunts for assists rather than making the correct basketball play. Its absolutely frustrating for other players to play with someone that doesn't move the ball and hunts for the scoring play that only involves passing when it leads to a basket. Where Rondo was different of course is not the same type of scorer, shoots way less so much lower usage rate = more opportunity for others & team play.
B. Russ's usage rate ws insanely high (42.3% last yr highest EVER, now down to manageable 34% ), teams cannot win this way. Bill Simmons wrote about it last year pre-playoffs accurately predicting OKC's postseason flameout.
50 Shades of Westbrook
C. 90% of the game the Russ show is fine and effective, but in 4th Q too predictable easier to stop, magnified, more true come playoff time.

My short answer to your hypothetical: I don't think he can change. Ala Allen Iverson he is ball dominant and once he can't do that he's got no 2nd act.
IF someday Russ becomes unselfish enough (and he's certainly smart enough) to change his style of play I think it HAS to occur with an ALPHA that he defers to. Pretty hard to imagine since he had in Durant arguably the 2nd best player in the NBA & couldn't defer. I assume back in the day Harden was on the floor without Russ too? Is there a superstar that could co-exist with a more deferential Russ (AD - no, Russ needs lane clear, LeBron & Harden need the ball, Giannis-Russ would stifle, Kristaps would defer to Russ, Embid? etc...)? Maybe if this Doncic kid is Larry Bird 2.0 that's the type of contagious passing player that could transition Russ into more of a winner - less impressive stats wise but a potential champion. As-is I don't think he's ever winning squat (though I do think OKC can beat Jazz & give Rockets run esp if Harden wilts per usual).

 

[Deepster]

My take is that Westbrook just doesn’t fit the storybook mold, that’s why it’s not a bigger story. Much like how Miguel Cabrera doesn’t get 1/1,000th of the cred Yaz did for having a triple crown in baseball.