NBA Playoffs

[CardiacAndre7]

Dude, it was a goaltend.

Redirect Notice

The ball also has to be above the rim for the backboard rule to come into play

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I never saw either play. But if you listen to Russell talk about it or read books about it, its abundantly clear that Russell owned Wilt. And as you point out Wilt's numbers are obscene especially for that era, so Russell's candidacy for GOAT partially rides up on the shoulders of Wilt's stats.

Play a hypothetical game evenly dispersing the 1st and 2nd GOATs at the other 4 positions, no doubt in my mind that Russell's team beats Wilts.

Mr. Russell can spin it that way because his team won all the rings. Wilt a averages something in the neighborhood of 38, 22, and 5 against Russell. Let that sink in. He can say he "Let him" because his team won. In reality, he could stop Wilt at all. Mr. Russell was a miles ahead as a leader, but no where near as good a player, and he is an all-time great.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

MJ would be a hyper-efficient Westbrook if he played today. His scoring numbers may not be the same but he'd have adapted and his assist numbers would have been through the roof. Hell, the man had seven straight triple-doubles (and 10 in 11 games) when he ran the point for a stretch in 1989, when defenses were more physical and the floor wasn't nearly as spread. I don't think it's a stretch to say MJ would have a 60% FG rate in today's NBA.

I agree with all of that except the floor not being as spread. The zone is legal in today's game. Jordan never faced a legal zone.

 

[Lefty2one]

I agree with all of that except the floor not being as spread. The zone is legal in today's game. Jordan never faced a legal zone.

Jordan did face plenty of illegal zones though, look at any of the videos on YT of MJ's series vs the Bad Boys. The old illegal defense rules were far from an exact science and a lot of teams got away with a pseudo-zone. Besides, zones are used to combat isolation and post-ups, which is why I think MJ would have adapted and averaged 10+ assists every year. Without handchecking he'd still get into the paint at will and find shooters just as well as any current star playmaker.

MJ had room to operate on one side of the floor but the paint was rarely as wide open as it is in today's league. The paint was more crowded before teams routinely put four 3PT threats on the floor. I mean watch any Houston game, they're running 5-out stuff most of the time. There is no Rockets player within 20' of the hoop at the start of their high pick and rolls. The paint is wiiiiiiiiide open.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Mr. Russell can spin it that way because his team won all the rings. Wilt a averages something in the neighborhood of 38, 22, and 5 against Russell. Let that sink in. He can say he "Let him" because his team won. In reality, he could stop Wilt at all. Mr. Russell was a miles ahead as a leader, but no where near as good a player, and he is an all-time great.

Did you see them play? I'd be interested in anyone's perspective that has. How did Wilt's stats in those series compare to his stats in other series? I'd assume Russell would have to generally hold Wilt to fewer points, lower FG% and fewer rebounds to bolster his case - I don't know any of the answers here but if he did the stats are just numbers, awesome numbers but in a losing cause.

 

[UConn990411]

Mr. Russell can spin it that way because his team won all the rings. Wilt a averages something in the neighborhood of 38, 22, and 5 against Russell. Let that sink in. He can say he "Let him" because his team won. In reality, he could stop Wilt at all. Mr. Russell was a miles ahead as a leader, but no where near as good a player, and he is an all-time great.

If we’re going to talk about Russell vs. Wilt, we should factor in that no one wanted to play with Wilt. The Lakers had a chance to trade for him way earlier in his career, but they left it up to the players for a vote - and the players overwhelmingly voted no. That tells you a lot right there.

Being a good teammate matters in every sport, but especially in basketball where there are only 12-15 guys on a roster. It’s why I’d take Duncan over Kobe every time, even though Kobe has the gaudy stats and the (overrated) reputation as the best player of his generation.

 

[Dogdeacon]

If we’re going to talk about Russell vs. Wilt, we should factor in that no one wanted to play with Wilt. The Lakers had a chance to trade for him way earlier in his career, but they left it up to the players for a vote - and the players overwhelmingly voted no. That tells you a lot right there.

Being a good teammate matters in every sport, but especially in basketball where there are only 12-15 guys on a roster. It’s why I’d take Duncan over Kobe every time, even though Kobe has the gaudy stats and the (overrated) reputation as the best player of his generation.

Kobe has swag over Duncan and that's it. Unfortunately his 'me' style seems even more powerful post-career than it was during and has amplified his accomplishments. That documentary short wasn't good, perfect microcosm of the Kobe experience though, self-congratulatory, no introspection, over-hyped and yet somehow rewarded for all of that hubris.

 

[Lefty2one]

Duncan was the best player of that generation IMO. People got too carried away with the Kobe vs MJ comparisons early in Kobe's career and always overrated Kobe a little bit. Crazy that he only won one MVP award. Duncan's boring game also hurts his legacy.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Jordan did face plenty of illegal zones though, look at any of the videos on YT of MJ's series vs the Bad Boys. The old illegal defense rules were far from an exact science and a lot of teams got away with a pseudo-zone. Besides, zones are used to combat isolation and post-ups, which is why I don't think MJ would have adapted and averaged 10+ assists every year. Without handchecking he'd still get into the paint at will and find shooters just as well as any current star playmaker.

MJ had room to operate on one side of the floor but the paint was rarely as wide open as it is in today's league. The paint was more crowded before teams routinely put four 3PT threats on the floor. I mean watch any Houston game, they're running 5-out stuff most of the time. There is no Rockets player within 20' of the hoop at the start of their high pick and rolls. The paint is wiiiiiiiiide open.

Amazing isn't it. And Chamberlain averaged over 30 a game in the other era. Jordan was a magnificent player who would adapt to any era. He might well be a scoring PG in this one, as Harden is. But imagine what someone like Wilt would be able to do today. He'd score at will, and if you so much as try to defend him, the shooters would burn you for open 3s.

 

[Walker11]

Duncan was the best player of that generation IMO. People got too carried away with the Kobe vs MJ comparisons early in Kobe's career and always overrated Kobe a little bit. Crazy that he only won one MVP award. Duncan's boring game also hurts his legacy.

Crazy as well that Shaq has 1 and that LeBron only has 4. BS on both accounts.

I think the All NBA accolades are more representative of dominance.

 

[Lefty2one]

Shaq was notoriously lazy, that explains his lack of regular season MVPs for the most part. Once he got to LA he came into every season out of shape and worked his way into shape as the season went on. He was never dedicated enough to fully dominate regular seasons. If that guy had a quality work ethic he might have been the best center of all time.

 

[nomar]

I agree nomar. Manning's only better than Brady when it counts for crying out loud.Other than that I'd take Tom.

He meant Peyton, I thought.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Duncan was the best player of that generation IMO. People got too carried away with the Kobe vs MJ comparisons early in Kobe's career and always overrated Kobe a little bit. Crazy that he only won one MVP award. Duncan's boring game also hurts his legacy.

Kobe deserved MVP in the ‘05-‘06 season.

 

[Lefty2one]

Kobe deserved MVP in the ‘05-‘06 season.

Par for the course with the league's top players. MJ and LeBron have been robbed of many MVPs. Voter fatigue.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Par for the course with the league's top players. MJ and LeBron have been robbed of many MVPs. Voter fatigue.

He hadn’t won an MVP yet though...

 

[superjohn]

Kobe deserved MVP in the ‘05-‘06 season.

Interestingly he only finished 4th after Nash, Lebron, and Dirk and Wade finished 6th.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Interestingly he only finished 4th after Nash, Lebron, and Dirk and Wade finished 6th.

It just didn’t/doesn’t make sense to me. He shot the ball at a high percentage (for him) that season and averaged 35 ppg, the lst time that happened was MJ in ‘86. Crazy.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Kobe deserved MVP in the ‘05-‘06 season.

Kobe won in a year he shouldn't have, but got shafted in the year he should have won it.

I thought Nash's first MVP should have gone to Shaq in a landslide. His second should have gone to Kobe. How the hell does Nash has 2 MVPs?

 

[MilliniumPrince]

If we’re going to talk about Russell vs. Wilt, we should factor in that no one wanted to play with Wilt. The Lakers had a chance to trade for him way earlier in his career, but they left it up to the players for a vote - and the players overwhelmingly voted no. That tells you a lot right there.

Being a good teammate matters in every sport, but especially in basketball where there are only 12-15 guys on a roster. It’s why I’d take Duncan over Kobe every time, even though Kobe has the gaudy stats and the (overrated) reputation as the best player of his generation.

Only on film. His numbers were better against others, but Russell couldn't do anything with him. But those Celtics rosters had multiple HOFers. Russell had the better cast, and he got the most out of it. That isn't easy.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Jordan did face plenty of illegal zones though, look at any of the videos on YT of MJ's series vs the Bad Boys. The old illegal defense rules were far from an exact science and a lot of teams got away with a pseudo-zone. Besides, zones are used to combat isolation and post-ups, which is why I think MJ would have adapted and averaged 10+ assists every year. Without handchecking he'd still get into the paint at will and find shooters just as well as any current star playmaker.

MJ had room to operate on one side of the floor but the paint was rarely as wide open as it is in today's league. The paint was more crowded before teams routinely put four 3PT threats on the floor. I mean watch any Houston game, they're running 5-out stuff most of the time. There is no Rockets player within 20' of the hoop at the start of their high pick and rolls. The paint is wiiiiiiiiide open.

Of course He did, but teams had to pretend. They can legally stuff the paint now. That is an underrated difference in the two eras.

 

[superjohn]

Kobe won in a year he shouldn't have, but got shafted in the year he should have won it.

I thought Nash's first MVP should have gone to Shaq in a landslide. His second should have gone to Kobe. How the hell does Nash has 2 MVPs?

I was a Nash fan and I still think it's absurd he won 2 MVP's.

 

[superjohn]

The ball also has to be above the rim for the backboard rule to come into play

NBA admits LeBron’s block should have been called a goaltending | Basketball Network

 

[Dogdeacon]

Celts - Bucks game 5 and 6 were really interesting case studies of player performances home vs away and clutch or must-win. Its weird how the defenses of each team were so much better at home, maybe its a side effect of when your offense is going well you play harder on D?
Game 5:
This was really the Marcus Smart game, he had at least 10 hustle plays that had a profound impact (steal/dive on the floor the moment he entered, blocked lob to Giannis, blocked someone else's dunk, couple key buckets, game sealing pass to Horford).
Game 6:
Giannis & Middleton controlled this one, a couple stretches where Celtics perfect ball movement had them looking good, but they needed to be perfect the whole game whereas Bucks had guys that could make plays when offense broke down. Celtics D could not stop them unlike the prior game.

For game 7 I think its a given that Horford and Giannis will play well. Will it come down to who has the most efficient or consistent 2-4 guys, cuz offense of Celtics bench is likely to offset Giannis' star power? Or will it be whoever is playing well on offense plays better defense and wins the game? I like the Celtics at home, but if Giannis & Middleton shoot the ball well - which they likely will (5/6 games so far) the Celtics need to be committed on defense regardless of what is happening on the other end. Not confident in this, but equally when the Bucks have offensive lulls they have to stay in it mentally and their knuckleheads Bledsoe, Parker, Maker slightly more likely to fall asleep on D or make dumb plays.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Celts - Bucks game 5 and 6 were really interesting case studies of player performances home vs away and clutch or must-win. Its weird how the defenses of each team were so much better at home, maybe its a side effect of when your offense is going well you play harder on D?
Game 5:
This was really the Marcus Smart game, he had at least 10 hustle plays that had a profound impact (steal/dive on the floor the moment he entered, blocked lob to Giannis, blocked someone else's dunk, couple key buckets, game sealing pass to Horford).
Game 6:
Giannis & Middleton controlled this one, a couple stretches where Celtics perfect ball movement had them looking good, but they needed to be perfect the whole game whereas Bucks had guys that could make plays when offense broke down. Celtics D could not stop them unlike the prior game.

For game 7 I think its a given that Horford and Giannis will play well. Will it come down to who has the most efficient or consistent 2-4 guys, cuz offense of Celtics bench is likely to offset Giannis' star power? Or will it be whoever is playing well on offense plays better defense and wins the game? I like the Celtics at home, but if Giannis & Middleton shoot the ball well - which they likely will (5/6 games so far) the Celtics need to be committed on defense regardless of what is happening on the other end. Not confident in this, but equally when the Bucks have offensive lulls they have to stay in it mentally and their knuckleheads Bledsoe, Parker, Maker slightly more likely to fall asleep on D or make dumb plays.

Good analysis. I would differ in that i think the Celtics defensive effort has been consistent, while the Buck have been all over the place. If Bledsoe plays defense like he did last night, Bucks should win game 7. If he brings his normal effort, the Bucks will probably lose.

 

[UCDaveD]

Playoff P, you don't get those superstar call babyyyyy