NBA Off-Season Thread

[Walker11]

If Kawhi sticks in Canada, then this was a good trade for Toronto.

I think Pops will make Derozan into the centerpiece of a Spurs team that will finish Top 4 in the West for the next 4-5 years. The Spurs killed it with this trade.

I think the outcome for the Spurs is more likely than not. I think Toronto is giving themselves a 3% chance to win a title in the next 4-5 years with a more likely outcome of being a 44 win teams, versus keeping Demar and having a 0% chance at a title with a likely outcome of being a 52ish win team over the next few seasons.

 

[champs99and04]

He's in his prime (28) and had his best season last year. He led them to the best record in the East last year. He's signed for 2+ years.

He was All-NBA 2nd team last year and 3rd the year before. He's been an All-Star 4 of the last 5 years.

His advanced stats haven't been as good as the accolades in general, but they were good last year for a volume scorer and his defense was the best it's been in the last couple years.

They'd be able to get a piece with much longer control for DeRozan, Poeltl, and a late 1st. Gary Harris, someone like that.
Poeltl is a real piece (top 10 pick 2 years ago and has played fairly well) and a late 1st is still valuable.

Does it mean anything to you that Toronto played their best quarter of the postseason with him on the bench? How about the fact that they've been swept out of the playoffs - losing by a staggering 14.6 points per game - two straight years? I know the whole transitive property thing doesn't always work, but it probably doesn't help that the team they've been swept by has essentially been swept by a different team.

The guy isn't a bad player. @Walker11 's point about him growing as a playmaker is valid, and he does the ability to get his own shot. You could sell me on him as a second banana next to LeBron or even as a guy who drags a depressing roster to the playoffs.

But at some point you have to either solidify yourself as a heavyweight who can trade blows with the best of the best, or you need to learn a different trade. We've seen this movie with so many players. Sentiment aside, DeMar DeRozan being your franchise player is about as close to NBA purgatory as you're going to get. Unless he's paired with a bonafide superstar, you're not getting anywhere close with that recipe. LeBron leaving the conference means they'd get waxed by Philly or Boston instead. They had no second gear because he had no second gear.

Edit: I agree that giving up Poeltl is not insignificant.

 

[Walker11]

Unless he's paired with a bonafide superstar, you're not getting anywhere close with that recipe. LeBron leaving the conference means they'd get waxed by Philly or Boston instead. They had no second gear because he had no second gear.

The counterpoint is that this fact rings true for all but like 7 guys in the entire league.

Lowry had the same playoff stink on him up until this past season. The team as a whole has been mentally fragile in the playoffs for years and clearly has a mental roadblock in facing the Cavs.

I don't hate the trade at all for the Raptors, I just think the likely outcome is that the Raptors will be considerably worse for several years because of this trade. They do now have a chance at being legit championship contenders, no matter how infinitesimally small, at least it is no longer zero. I do see value in having a guy like DeRozan and being an excellent regular season team for many years without a real championship window but clearly Masai is swinging for the fences. You have to make these extremely bold moves in order to have a chance to get lucky in the current NBA.

 

[UConn990411]

You're wrong.

Kawhi's brand is just fine. Let's start with his name. You look at the players who have been marketable in the NBA and they have great names. LeBron. Kobe. Kyrie. Shaq. Klay. Draymond. Carmelo. Kemba. If you have a name like Chris, you better be able to come up with a cute nickname like CP3. Otherwise you're Chris Bosh. And if you have a name like Dwayne, you should misspell it to get people talking.

It also doesn't hurt that he has enormous hands and vintage hair. Best perimeter defender since Scottie Pippen? San Diego State? Perhaps recruited by the ghost of Ed Martin? I would have a field day marketing him.

His personality works in his favor. You don't seem to appreciate the difference between a boring and mystical. There is an aura about Kawhi that you can't simulate. You've never seen him talk. You don't know if he's ever talked. You aren't sure he knows how to talk. And if he did talk, you sure as hell would listen. Just because he doesn't yell hysterically into the camera and recycle cliches doesn't mean he lacks personality. He has the greatest personality in the NBA besides for Joel Embiid and Kyrie if he's theorizing about the earth's geometry.

I could continue, but next time try to keep your insulting, degrading, and reprehensible remarks to yourself unless they have some basis in truth. This board is a better place when we think before we post and clearly you have not demonstrated a sensitivity to the power your words have on impressionable minds. You're better than this and I want to be the first to extend my heartfelt support as you attempt to repair your image.

Lol, what in the world are you talking about?

I actually don’t even mind that Kawhi’s quiet (although the quitting on his team thing is tough to look past). I’m just disputing the notion that San Antonio - and not his quiet demeanor - is the reason Kawhi can’t get the shoe deals he reportedly wants. This isn’t 1970 anymore. You don’t need to be in LA or NYC anymore to get a big deal.

 

[auror]

Does it mean anything to you that Toronto played their best quarter of the postseason with him on the bench? How about the fact that they've been swept out of the playoffs - losing by a staggering 14.6 points per game - two straight years?

The guy isn't a bad player. @Walker11 's point about him growing as a playmaker is valid, and he does the ability to get his own shot. You could sell me on him as a second banana next to LeBron or even as a guy who drags a depressing roster to the playoffs.

But at some point you have to either solidify yourself as a heavyweight who can trade blows with the best of the best, or you need to learn a different trade. We've seen this movie with so many players. Sentiment aside, DeMar DeRozan being your franchise player is about as close to NBA purgatory as you're going to get. Unless he's paired with a bonafide superstar, you're not getting anywhere close with that recipe. LeBron leaving the conference means they'd get waxed by Philly or Boston instead. They had no second gear because he had no second gear.

Edit: I agree that giving up Poeltl is not insignificant.

No it doesn't mean much to me. They lost to LeBron both times (one of which was a ridiculous team). Reminder: LeBron is 24-0 in East playoff series over the last 8 years. Of course, NBA GMs have the opinions that actually matter, so who knows what his value was around the league.

He didn't play well, certainly. He was 0-9 from 3 in the playoffs. I would wager he gets to 34-35% from 3 by the time his contract is up at this year's volume, though.

If anything, I'm more anti the return than pro Demar and co. I don't think their chance of winning the title will be significantly better with Kawhi coming off injury and chance of not buying in + over the hill Green than with Demar + Poeltl considering GSW and Celtics rosters +coaching advantages. And if their championship equity isn't much changed, and I don't think they have a snowball's chance of re-signing Kawhi, that makes the trade just a salary dump to free cap space. I'd rather acquire an asset with longer control (or if I'm planning to tank after this year at least keep the pick).

 

[champs99and04]

Lol, what in the world are you talking about?

I actually don’t even mind that Kawhi’s quiet (although the quitting on his team thing is tough to look past). I’m just disputing the notion that San Antonio - and not his quiet demeanor - is the reason Kawhi can’t get the shoe deals he reportedly wants. This isn’t 1970 anymore. You don’t need to be in LA or NYC anymore to get a big deal.

I'm just messing with you. I'm very protective of Kawhi.

I don't really know who to believe in the Spurs/Kawhi dispute. I want to think it's just a misunderstanding that spiraled out of control, but maybe that's naive.

 

[the Q]

I'm just messing with you. I'm very protective of Kawhi.

I don't really know who to believe in the Spurs/Kawhi dispute. I want to think it's just a misunderstanding that spiraled out of control, but maybe that's naive.

Both sides are at fault.

Kawhi not wanting to announce he was shutting down for the year.

Pop and Parker taking cheap shots.

The March verbal gangbang by his teammates.

Once that hit kawhi took it to a whole new level of operation shutdown. I can’t say I blame him for not wanting to go back, but he didn’t do himself any favors either.

 

[champs99and04]

The counterpoint is that this fact rings true for all but like 7 guys in the entire league.

Lowry had the same playoff stink on him up until this past season. The team as a whole has been mentally fragile in the playoffs for years and clearly has a mental roadblock in facing the Cavs.

I don't hate the trade at all for the Raptors, I just think the likely outcome is that the Raptors will be considerably worse for several years because of this trade. They do now have a chance at being legit championship contenders, no matter how infinitesimally small, at least it is no longer zero. I do see value in having a guy like DeRozan and being an excellent regular season team for many years without a real championship window but clearly Masai is swinging for the fences. You have to make these extremely bold moves in order to have a chance to get lucky in the current NBA.

For the record, I'm as big a proponent of sticking with 'good' - even in the absence of compelling reason to think it will ever be great - as you'll find, so I agree with that line of thinking. But I thought the situation in Toronto was static to the point that it was pretty obvious you were never going to see a breakthrough. I draw a firm line in the sand between a team that needs a break or two versus one that's DOA in any big game. They were the equivalent of the Titans or Texans trying to win a playoff game in Foxborough.

I don't hold it against DeRozan that he isn't James Harden, but I do find it damning that I'd far rather have Otto Porter or Khris Middleton as a complementary player. I think he's a guy who will ultimately settle into a role he's overqualified for ala Rudy Gay (though he's better than Rudy was).

 

[the Q]

For the record, I'm as big a proponent of sticking with 'good' - even in the absence of compelling reason to think it will ever be great - as you'll find, so I agree with that line of thinking. But I thought the situation in Toronto was static to the point that it was pretty obvious you were never going to see a breakthrough. I draw a firm line in the sand between a team that needs a break or two versus one that's DOA in any big game. They were the equivalent of the Titans or Texans trying to win a playoff game in Foxborough.

I don't hold it against DeRozan that he isn't Steph, but I do find it damning that I'd far rather have Otto Porter or Khris Middleton as a complementary player. I think he's a guy who will ultimately settle into a role he's overqualified for ala Rudy Gay (though he's better than Rudy was).

Now that's a bit harsh.

They really pushed CLE the year before.

 

[Walker11]

For the record, I'm as big a proponent of sticking with 'good' - even in the absence of compelling reason to think it will ever be great - as you'll find, so I agree with that line of thinking. But I thought the situation in Toronto was static to the point that it was pretty obvious you were never going to see a breakthrough. I draw a firm line in the sand between a team that needs a break or two versus one that's DOA in any big game. They were the equivalent of the Titans or Texans trying to win a playoff game in Foxborough.

I don't hold it against DeRozan that he isn't James Harden, but I do find it damning that I'd far rather have Otto Porter or Khris Middleton as a complementary player. I think he's a guy who will ultimately settle into a role he's overqualified for ala Rudy Gay (though he's better than Rudy was).

I think we see the entire situation pretty similarly so this is more a cheap shot by me than anything but in my eyes preferring Porter over DeRozan is more damning against you than it is DeRozan. If you want to put any weight in playoff performances, one guy averaged 8 per game in a series loss and one guy averaged 27 per game in a series win. DeMar just really needs to start shooting the 3 better to make the next step past a better version of a Gay type player, which has been a fine comparison for most of DD's career.

 

[ihatepants]

Both sides are at fault.

Kawhi not wanting to announce he was shutting down for the year.

Pop and Parker taking cheap shots.

The March verbal gangbang by his teammates.

Once that hit kawhi took it to a whole new level of operation shutdown. I can’t say I blame him for not wanting to go back, but he didn’t do himself any favors either.

ESPN published an entire post-mortem on this.

The franchise harbored some ill will, too, but considered Leonard such an important commodity it was willing to work through the difficult times toward resolution. The Spurs disliked ceding control in August of Leonard's medical care to outside doctors and were miffed by the handling of the entire situation by the forward's representation -- namely uncle Dennis Robertson -- who, like Leonard, didn't necessarily excel in the communication department, according to sources.

Privately, officials within organization had hoped Leonard would let the Spurs declare him out for the season due to his injury, according to sources with knowledge of the situation. Believing he'd eventually return, Leonard declined each time, leaving Popovich to field queries from the media that he couldn't definitively answer. Popovich simply didn't know.

The Spurs have never faced this kind of uncertainty

Looks like most of the blame can really be placed on Kawhi and his camp. You can’t blame Pop or his teammates for what they said when the organization *wanted* to just declare him out for the whole season. The fact that Kawhi played this “will he or won’t he play” for an entire season has GOT to be incredibly frustrating if you’re a coach or player on a team that really needed their best player to at least show up.



It’s also another thing to threaten bailing on your new team too. It really undercuts his whole original argument (did the Spurs organization, coach and teammates really wrong him? he's taking the same position against teams that aren't SA).

 

[Huskies4ever]

ESPN published an entire post-mortem on this.



The Spurs have never faced this kind of uncertainty

Looks like most of the blame can really be placed on Kawhi and his camp. You can’t blame Pop or his teammates for what they said when the organization *wanted* to just declare him out for the whole season. The fact that Kawhi played this “will he or won’t he play” for an entire season has GOT to be incredibly frustrating if you’re a coach or player on a team that really needed their best player to at least show up.



It’s also another thing to threaten bailing on your new team too. It really undercuts his whole original argument (did the Spurs organization, coach and teammates really wrong him? he's taking the same position against teams that aren't SA).

If this is true, he's a real headcase.

Who does he want to play for? GS?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

ESPN published an entire post-mortem on this.



The Spurs have never faced this kind of uncertainty

Looks like most of the blame can really be placed on Kawhi and his camp. You can’t blame Pop or his teammates for what they said when the organization *wanted* to just declare him out for the whole season. The fact that Kawhi played this “will he or won’t he play” for an entire season has GOT to be incredibly frustrating if you’re a coach or player on a team that really needed their best player to at least show up.



It’s also another thing to threaten bailing on your new team too. It really undercuts his whole original argument (did the Spurs organization, coach and teammates really wrong him? he's taking the same position against teams that aren't SA).

Someone from Toronto better have talked directly to Kawhi before making this trade, or the Raptors' GM deserves to be fired.

 

[the Q]

ESPN published an entire post-mortem on this.



The Spurs have never faced this kind of uncertainty

Looks like most of the blame can really be placed on Kawhi and his camp. You can’t blame Pop or his teammates for what they said when the organization *wanted* to just declare him out for the whole season. The fact that Kawhi played this “will he or won’t he play” for an entire season has GOT to be incredibly frustrating if you’re a coach or player on a team that really needed their best player to at least show up.



It’s also another thing to threaten bailing on your new team too. It really undercuts his whole original argument (did the Spurs organization, coach and teammates really wrong him? he's taking the same position against teams that aren't SA).

This never gets this far wih the pop cheap shots, the Parker idiocy and the March gang bang.

Plus I have a big issue with the spurs trying to go around his representation. That’s simply underhanded and wrong. Period. Full stop. No excuse.

 

[MadDogRevival]

I love Kawhi's game. Had nothing but respect for him when he had the dominant performance against us in the NCAAs - I still giggle when I think of his team's fans coming on our board to let us know that he had really big hands. hah!
But I hate this move.
Spurs stay good, but not good enough to challenge for the West.
Toronto, maybe, gets a little better, but Kawhi is now buried on a squad that will never seriously contend for a title.
Would much rather have seen Kawhi team up with LBJ and give GS a good series.

Can't wait for the Spurs/LAL matchup to see if LBJ will continue his ownership of DeRozen.

 

[tzznandrew]

Celtics retain Smart at $13M a year for 4 years. I'm glad they were able to keep him.

 

[Husky25]

Celtics retain Smart at $13M a year for 4 years. I'm glad they were able to keep him.

It's a good deal for both sides. Smart is not worth nearly as much to any other team so he would not get the dollars he thinks he's worth anywhere else. At the same time his expiring contract at the end of the deal makes him a real asset in a trade.

 

[ihatepants]

This never gets this far wih the pop cheap shots, the Parker idiocy and the March gang bang.

Plus I have a big issue with the spurs trying to go around his representation. That’s simply underhanded and wrong. Period. Full stop. No excuse.

In what way did the Spurs try to go around his representation? The Spurs never lied to him. Kawhi wanted out of SA for reasons other than whatever Pop, the Spurs or Tony Parker did or said. He was just looking for any excuse to shift the blame off of himself. And because you're siding with him in this case, it looks like his narrative worked.

 

[intlzncster]

Interesting listening to Boogie on why he joined the Warriors. Still curious as to how much interest the Celtics showed. Reportedly had some.

“We reached out to teams, the Pelicans, and there was no offer. I understand, a big year and you don’t want to take a chance on a damaged player. Cool. We reached out to some other teams. We got answers like, we don’t believe it’s a good fit,’ or ‘We gotta see what we’re doing with our roster.’Just Stop answers. And then there were some that were flat out like, we can’t take that risk. I had to prepare myself for this situation. The different possibilities that I knew would happen. Talked to Draymond, talked to KD, talked to Steph and they were like, hell yeah, let’s do it. This was my ace of spades. This was my nuclear bomb. My last resort.

“Yeah, I could’ve probably got a contract, a decent contract, from a bad team. But how does that help me? I’m already fighting a career-ending injury. I’m not going to put myself in an already bad situation to try and prove my value or worth as a player in a situation that’s not looking to win. I knew how I’d be perceived by some. I don’t give a duckbomb.”

 

[champs99and04]

I think we see the entire situation pretty similarly so this is more a cheap shot by me than anything but in my eyes preferring Porter over DeRozan is more damning against you than it is DeRozan. If you want to put any weight in playoff performances, one guy averaged 8 per game in a series loss and one guy averaged 27 per game in a series win. DeMar just really needs to start shooting the 3 better to make the next step past a better version of a Gay type player, which has been a fine comparison for most of DD's career.

It's fair to say Otto hasn't maintained his level of production in the postseason (not sure how much of a factor the injury was last year), but my preference for him over DeRozan is independent of anything that's happened in the playoffs. I think he's just a better player straight up.

Agreed on DeMar's shooting, though I don't know that I would bet on it. I think his best case scenario is to play the 2016 Kyrie role, but obviously that would require finding a 2016 LeBron which there is only one of.

 

[champs99and04]

I try not to overanalyze the things players say to the media, but this is, uh, eyebrow raising? New Bull Parker: Players not paid for defense

Given the fact that it's his hometown team and they're miles away from contending, it might not matter as much, but it would be awfully tough for me to stomach that attitude if I were a Bulls fan and you have to question the guidance he's received throughout his career - dating back to his college days - if that's his mentality four years removed from declaring. I don't mind the arrogance so much as I do the sheer stupidity of those remarks. This kid could use a vet to grab him by the collar right about now, otherwise good luck fetching a similar payday next time around.

 

[intlzncster]

I try not to overanalyze the things players say to the media, but this is, uh, eyebrow raising? New Bull Parker: Players not paid for defense

Given the fact that it's his hometown team and they're miles away from contending, it might not matter as much, but it would be awfully tough for me to stomach that attitude if I were a Bulls fan and you have to question the guidance he's received throughout his career - dating back to his college days - if that's his mentality four years removed from declaring. I don't mind the arrogance so much as I do the sheer stupidity of those remarks. This kid could use a vet to grab him by the collar right about now, otherwise good luck fetching a similar payday next time around.

There's a reason Parker is on the Bulls and not an actually good team.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I try not to overanalyze the things players say to the media, but this is, uh, eyebrow raising? New Bull Parker: Players not paid for defense

Given the fact that it's his hometown team and they're miles away from contending, it might not matter as much, but it would be awfully tough for me to stomach that attitude if I were a Bulls fan and you have to question the guidance he's received throughout his career - dating back to his college days - if that's his mentality four years removed from declaring. I don't mind the arrogance so much as I do the sheer stupidity of those remarks. This kid could use a vet to grab him by the collar right about now, otherwise good luck fetching a similar payday next time around.

I thought it was hilarious. He is so bad defensively that even the Bucks didn't want him, and the Bucks are bad defensively.

 

[Dogdeacon]

In what way did the Spurs try to go around his representation? The Spurs never lied to him. Kawhi wanted out of SA for reasons other than whatever Pop, the Spurs or Tony Parker did or said. He was just looking for any excuse to shift the blame off of himself. And because you're siding with him in this case, it looks like his narrative worked.

Agree, I really like Kawhi and think he's a great, transcendent talent and basketball player, but he absolutely is following bad advice and abandoned his team more for perceived slights than actual. Now he's upset for them speaking out about his not playing, not communicating about his injury AND not supporting his team by staying with them. And while Kawhi is threatening sitting out again people still defend that he sat out only for injury. He is proving that he sat out for his own reasons and these appear to be partially self-inflicted (slights, over-cautious to only opinion he wanted to hear on injury).
There is at least a 33% chance that Kawhi either doesn't play again this year due to same combo of physical/mental injury. Rather than publicly or privately get help and cooperate with his team Kawhi keeps following bad advice and digging a hole deeper.

If I had to bet $1000 on who wins this trade for the 18-19 season I'd take the Spurs in a heartbeat even though I believe that from a pure on-court basketball perspective for the upcoming season the Raptors won the trade.

 

[the Q]

I thought it was hilarious. He is so bad defensively that even the Bucks didn't want him, and the Bucks are bad defensively.

This was one of my Plus hot takes. Although not here.

I called Parker vastly overrated and not an elite prospect.