NBA Finals Thread - Celtics vs Mavericks

[HuskyHawk]

Luka is hurt and has massive responsibilities on offense but I could never see Hurley tolerating something like this from any player.

He's not a good man defender. He's smart as a team defender. Good at poking balls free and getting in passing lanes. But they need a weak link offensive player for him to guard and Boston just doesn't have one, except maybe Hauser in his slump.

 

[gtcam]

He also kiiiinda blamed Luka for the loss in the postgame presser. As a Celtics fan I’m getting a hint of 2019 vibes from him.

Kyrie is a talent, but he also may be the worst type of disease for any team he is on.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I expect Jordan Walsh to crack the rotation next year. Taking some of those Hauser minutes. Hauser has played decent D, just can’t shoot for some reason. Walsh is very athletic and a very good defender, just raw offensively.

I despise Jordan Walsh, Celtics could have had Andre Jackson instead of Walsh - presumably took the lesser player b/c of 3pt shooting even though Andre took Walsh's lunch money on both sides of the ball in the NCAAs.

Yes there are spacing problems with Andre IF his 3pt shooting can't be improved, but we saw Hurley and Andre solve this in real time and I think there are still mechanical issues to fix on the shot form that make an improvement possible.

 

[Mr. French]

Jrue is a much better 4th or 5th option than 2nd 3rd.

No doubt. I’d say 3rd or 4th but if he’s your 5th option, you’re loaded.

Given that Dame can’t defend, why not run Jrue and Dame together? I never got it then, I definitely don’t now. Plus everyone in the league knew he’d go to Boston and finish their roster.

Milwaukee can’t get out of their own way with a generational player.

 

[aceboon]

No doubt. I’d say 3rd or 4th but if he’s your 5th option, you’re loaded.

Given that Dame can’t defend, why not run Jrue and Dame together? I never got it then, I definitely don’t now. Plus everyone in the league knew he’d go to Boston and finish their roster.

Milwaukee can’t get out of their own way with a generational player.

Blazers probably insisted on Jrue being included to flip later

 

[Mr. French]

Blazers probably insisted on Jrue being included to flip later

Perhaps, but it seemed like everyone knew Milwaukee was done with Jrue. And even their fans were ready to move on.

 

[Matrim55]

Blazers probably insisted on Jrue being included to flip later

It was 100% this. And part of why Milwaukee were willing to move him is that Jimmy cooked Jrue in last year's playoffs, while Middleton has always guarded him fairly well (and outright killed the Celtics). They had to move one of those guys, and just from the personnel available standpoint, Jrue made more sense.

Bad luck for them injuries killed this year, but I would want no part of a fully healthy Bucks team in next year's playoffs.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I despise Jordan Walsh, Celtics could have had Andre Jackson instead of Walsh - presumably took the lesser player b/c of 3pt shooting even though Andre took Walsh's lunch money on both sides of the ball in the NCAAs.

Yes there are spacing problems with Andre IF his 3pt shooting can't be improved, but we saw Hurley and Andre solve this in real time and I think there are still mechanical issues to fix on the shot form that make an improvement possible.

That's no reason to hate Walsh. It's not his fault. I can't blame Boston either. Similar players, but Andre was more experienced and better coached when we played Arkansas. Walsh was a freshman. Either player is a gamble, but Boston cannot have a non-shooter in their offense. Hope they both exceed expectations in the NBA.

 

[Mr. French]

It was 100% this. And part of why Milwaukee were willing to move him is that Jimmy cooked Jrue in last year's playoffs, while Middleton has always guarded him fairly well (and outright killed the Celtics). They had to move one of those guys, and just from the personnel available standpoint, Jrue made more sense.

Bad luck for them injuries killed this year, but I would want no part of a fully healthy Bucks team in next year's playoffs.

You can strongly make any of those arguments.

You can also counter that they just won a title with that core and Jrue provides tons of things that numbers don’t show. And the Bucks were not firing on all cylinders even while healthy.

So yes, there’s always real, valid reasons to make a move. So far the results are pretty poor.

 

[Matrim55]

Hollinger: Jason Kidd needed the Celtics to beat themselves, because the Mavs can't

The Dallas coach tried playing a mental game with the Celtics' two best players. After another loss, nothing is working for the Mavericks.

www.nytimes.com

Hollinger's one of my favorites. Good read.

 

[Matrim55]

Really interesting Reddit post on Tatum I'm going to paste here:

If the Celtics won this title in the 80’s, Tatum would be viewed like Isiah Thomas was then

This demonstrates how obsessed people are, for better and worse, with individual star stat-lines now.
Isiah Thomas, to win his maiden title:

• 18/4/8, 3 turnovers on 41/27/74, serviceable defence (though he was never a stopper).
• 21/5/8 on 39/16/74 against the Bulls.
• 21/2/7 on 49/33/76 against the Lakers.

^ even with “stat inflation” factored in, these are very modest numbers. And not a single person on earth gave a ****.

Plays better the following year, but put up a pedestrian 17/6/8 on 39% in a narrow 7 game win against the Bulls.

Yet despite this, and despite having one of the most stacked rotations of all time (the Pistons compare quite nicely to the Celtics, relative to era), few people were saying things like “Thomas was carried!” (to an extent, on paper at least he was) and “STACKED TEAM” (it was).
However much like Tatum he was the heart of the team, a great chemistry guy, and was one of the most durable players in the league during that part of his career (meaning, he always put himself in contention). He also didn’t seem to care one iota about his individual stats. Nor did anyone else on that team.

Did it lead to him getting some excessive credit? Probably. But such was the landscape of the league in a time where people actually cared about how teams did, rather than individual players. Much preferable to the **** we see today. Pick your poison, I s’pose.

Edit: I’m only assuming for the sake of the argument that the Celtics win. I realize the series isn’t over, but the discourse surrounding Tatum won’t change much regardless.

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I actually think that's a really good comparison. Like Tatum Isiah was a fringe top 5 guy in the league whose team was deeper and had a unique game model (the transition from the go-go '80s to the grit-n-grind mid-90s really started with the Bad Boys).

 

[WeAreUCONN]

Has he ever been right on here? "Fire Hurley" 2 years ago will go down in the annals of Boneyard history.

Edit: Mavs in 6*

 

[HuskyHawk]

Edit: Mavs in 6*

That's 2026 maybe. But I doubt it.

 

[Waquoit]

Stevens killed it in the offseason. He may be the next Red Auerbach.

He's not afraid to make a move.

 

[Deleted at users request]

 

[Deleted at users request]

 

[tzznandrew]

He needs to adapt a little to take what they give him. But he hasn't forced it much, and has been a good playmaker. His defense has been awesome, too. They're really selling out to keep him from scoring, and it's working, but the Celtics are more than just him. Or him and Brown, which is unlike the last few teams they've played.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Would the Mavs be up 2-0 if they had Nembhard instead of Kyrie? Makes you think.

 

[Deleted at users request]

He needs to adapt a little to take what they give him. But he hasn't forced it much, and has been a good playmaker. His defense has been awesome, too. They're really selling out to keep him from scoring, and it's working, but the Celtics are more than just him. Or him and Brown, which is unlike the last few teams they've played.

I didn’t see the last game so maybe context is important, but he took the most shots. More than even Luka lol

It’s crazy he’s taking the most shots, not shooting it well while also not “forcing” shots. If he’s not forcing shots he should be super efficient with the level of talent he is.

 

[Umami Zen]

Celts got to keep the pedal to the metal. Mavs aren't going to lay down for a sweep

 

[tzznandrew]

I didn’t see the last game so maybe context is important, but he took the most shots. More than even Luka lol

It’s crazy he’s taking the most shots, not shooting it well while also not “forcing” shots. If he’s not forcing shots he should be super efficient with the level of talent he is.

He's missed a lot of good shots. He's getting into the lane at will because Luka's been a turnstyle. He missed like 4 driving layups he normally hit by shooting too hard.

He's been shooting as bad as possible, but most of it doesn't feel like the late game Celtics ** offense. I think it's a combination of the Mavs selling out to stop him and him not rising fully to the moment. At least he has contributed defensively and elsewhere on offense. He has 20 rebounds and 17 assists over the two games.

 

[Deleted at users request]

He's missed a lot of good shots. He's getting into the lane at will because Luka's been a turnstyle. He missed like 4 driving layups he normally hit by shooting too hard.

He's been shooting as bad as possible, but most of it doesn't feel like the late game Celtics ** offense. I think it's a combination of the Mavs selling out to stop him and him not rising fully to the moment. At least he has contributed defensively and elsewhere on offense. He has 20 rebounds and 17 assists over the two games.

Sounds great for a role player.

 

[Waquoit]

Perhaps, but it seemed like everyone knew Milwaukee was done with Jrue. And even their fans were ready to move on.

Who needs a defensive star averaging 19 points and zero turnovers in the Finals anyway?

 

[nomar]

He's missed a lot of good shots. He's getting into the lane at will because Luka's been a turnstyle. He missed like 4 driving layups he normally hit by shooting too hard.

He's been shooting as bad as possible, but most of it doesn't feel like the late game Celtics ** offense. I think it's a combination of the Mavs selling out to stop him and him not rising fully to the moment. At least he has contributed defensively and elsewhere on offense. He has 20 rebounds and 17 assists over the two games.

They're putting 2-3 guys on him an awful lot but, still, he has missed a lot of good shots.

He still does take some dumb shots where he fades away or kicks his legs out instead of just going up straight but I think the Mavs have gotten pretty lucky that he's been missing. Kyrie's also missed a lot of makeable shots.

I'm still not counting any chickens. Need to win one in Dallas. If we win the next one, warm up the bus.

 

[nomar]

Who needs a defensive star averaging 19 points and zero turnovers in the Finals anyway?

Man, what an awesome trade. I remember somebody bagging on him saying he was bad at shooting in the clutch and I said, well, we don't need him to be a #1 or #2 option -- he's going to be #4 or #5.

An underrated part of his game is finishing inside against bigger players. So good.

KP, Jrue and White were 3 ridiculous trades. Getting Al back wasn't too shabby either.