NBA Finals Thread - Celtics vs Mavericks

[nomar]

He’s a weird dude and freaking good at basketball he’s done and said questionable things but never broke any laws. He never played for my team so I don’t have any anger toward him I’m kind of just entertained by the anti and pro Kyrie stances, this isn’t a Celtics board btw.

I’m a Knicks fan so I loved seeing the Nets self destruct. Seeing the Nets trying to act like they were taking over the city and hearing KD saying the Knicks aren’t cool, only going to Brooklyn because of Kyrie had me relishing evil things for that franchise more then ever.

I don't like antisemitism, personally. And I'm not saying he is antisemitic (I don't know), but he certainly hasn't shown that he doesn't like antisemitism.

 

[Deleted at users request]

I don't like antisemitism, personally. And I'm not saying he is antisemitic (I don't know), but he certainly hasn't shown that he doesn't like antisemitism.

Which is weird because Mark Cuban is Jewish. But I’m not really touching that part of the Kyrie topic one way or another. Just pointing that out.

 

[Scoe]

I thought he was forced to sit out for Nets home games because he wasn't vaccinated for Covid? I kind of feel like he shouldn't be paid if he's not playing but that's on the union.

I don’t think he was paid, visiting unvaccinated players were allowed to play in Brooklyn btw.

 

[HuskyHawk]

DJJ and PJ have been doing a pretty great job on defense this playoffs. They’re going to be better than anything Tatum and JB have faced.

Holiday, White, and JB aren’t tough challengers than a Dort or a NAW/McDaniels/Ant combo.

It’s a team of collective talent that all try to do everything vs a team where everyone has solidified roles.

Holliday and White are 4th and 5th options for Boston. That‘s the difference. Both can easily torch you for 25+ if you don’t defend them. Maybe that’s what you mean by all around talent. Jrue was already the 2nd best player on a title team and he’s maybe the 4th best player on this team. As good a Luka is, he’s going to be better defended than he has been and will have to play hard on D.

Should be an entertaining series. Wish we didn’t have to wait until next Thursday.

 

[superjohn]

I don’t think he was paid, visiting unvaccinated players were allowed to play in Brooklyn btw.

The rules were unbelievably stupid. At one point players were forced to sit out if unvaccinated but the fans in the crowd didn't have to be vaccinated.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Holliday and White are 4th and 5th options for Boston. That‘s the difference. Both can easily torch you for 25+ if you don’t defend them. Maybe that’s what you mean by all around talent. Jrue was already the 2nd best player on a title team and he’s maybe the 4th best player on this team. As good a Luka is, he’s going to be better defended than he has been and will have to play hard on D.

Should be an entertaining series. Wish we didn’t have to wait until next Thursday.

They can but all of them can’t do it at once. Well maybe they can but it’s not likely.

As I’ve stated, guards have been frying the Celtics guards all playoffs. I’m not sure why it would be any different with Luka. He’s already been guarded by 2 All defensive perimeter guys this playoffs.

Meanwhile the Celtics have faced a total of 1 All-NBA player for a game and a half this playoffs. The Celtics have everything to prove this series.

Agreed I can’t wait to watch. This could be one of the best Finals we’ve had in awhile competitively.

 

[willie99]

Mavs in 6. If Celtics had issues with Andrew Nembhard and TJ McConnell just wait for Kyrie and Luka.

They played Cryie just two short years ago, with KD

4-0, no problems at all

 

[Mr. French]

There's nobody in the NBA I dislike more than Kyrie. The guy is me-first. He's been a cancer in 3 separate locker rooms. He totally screwed over the Nets. He's the biggest example of Dunning-Kruger I've ever seen; he thinks his IQ is 40 points above what is actually is. Which is quirky until he decides to sit out and abandon his teammates for the same reason my 5-year-old decides not to brush her teeth. Telling everybody the world is flat and amplifying an antisemitic video and then refusing to apologize for it don't make you a free thinker; they only show that you're proudly ignorant.

For a long time I thought he's not a bad guy. I don't think that anymore. People have kindly pointed things out to him and he doesn't. Give. A. F.

I resent that all it takes is for him and his team to play well for his image to be rehabbed. Give me a break.

I hate that there's a chance this schmuck can beat Boston for a title.

I’ve always thought all of this too.

I feel how he’s playing and acting seems genuinely better now…but I agree, it only took 2 good series to wipe out a ton of crap for years with him.

I can’t lie, I started to like him a lot more the last few months. But I have no idea what he’s really like. He was unrelentingly douchey before.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The Celtics' path to the NBA Finals was easy. The Cavaliers and Pacers were both without their best players for multiple games in those series, and the Celtics didn't have to play any of the other three best teams in the East (Bucks, Knicks, 76ers), who all had their own injury issues. That said, I don't think the Knicks or 76ers could have beaten the Celtics at full strength, and the Bucks were a long-shot at best if they had everyone healthy. This Celtics team is really good, and I am not a Celtics fan.

I am surprised by the Mavericks run, and it is a credit to Doncic growing up as a player and Jason Kidd growing up as a coach. Kidd could always coach, but he was such a jerk on the Bucks that they had to get rid of him. He seems to have settled down in his middle age. Kyrie is one of the most over-rated players of his generation. He gets treated like he is a Tier 1 talent, but he is mediocre defensively and all of his success comes from being on great teams.

There have been some recent NBA Champions that were subpar by historical standards. I think that three of the last four NBA Champions (2020 Lakers, 2022 Warriors, 2023 Nuggets) are among the worst NBA Champions of the modern era (starting with Bird/Johnson). But the Mavericks are even a big step down from those teams, and I just don't see how a team as flawed as the Mavs wins or even really challenges in the Finals. The Celtics are much better than the Mavericks without Porzingis. With Porzingis, it should be no contest. Unless Tatum or Brown gets hurt, this shouldn't be much of an NBA Finals.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Celtics fans, make sure yall don’t antagonize any superstars like this

 

[UofCT]

They played Cryie just two short years ago, with KD

4-0, no problems at all

Mavs in 6. If Celtics play like they did vs. Indiana with bench warmers Nembhard and McConnell getting whatever they want I change my pick to Mavs in 4.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Nelson's 5 worst NBA Champions of the modern era (79-80 season and on):

1) 2020 Los Angeles Lakers - an aging superstar (Lebron), an oft-injured superstar (AD), and a supporting cast picked out of the discount rack. This team only wins because there was almost a 4 month break due to Covid for Lebron and AD to get fresh before the playoffs. This is one of the more anomalous champions in NBA, in the sense that the championship comes out of nowhere if you look at the Lakers' previous and succeeding seasons.

2) 2022 Golden State Warriors - a solid team whose championship felt more like an encore than a team in its prime. Thompson missing most of the season helped GS because he was fresh at the end of the season, and the 64 win Suns had a historic choke in the second round to clear the path. The Bucks were the best team in the East, but Middleton was out after the first round and the Bucks still took the Celtics to 7 games. This was the last Covid-impacted NBA season, and the league was still just a little off, and everything just kind of broke right for the Warriors.

3) 1994 Houston Rockets - Jordan was on hiatus, so the Rockets had the best player in the NBA this season (and one of the best of all time) in Hakeem Olajuwon. Their next best player was...Kenny Smith? Tomjanovich was starting to incorporate some metrics driven basketball, and the depth was OK, but this team was not championship-caliber, and Olajuwon had even complained about the Rockets' commitment to winning in the previous 2 seasons. This was also one of the craziest playoffs in NBA history. Scottie Pippen refused to go on the court in a playoff game, the Rockets almost lost to the Suns in the second round, and it took a legendary John Starks' meltdown in Game 7 of the NBA Finals for the Rockets to beat the Knicks.

gap

4) 2023 Denver Nuggets - A good team with the best player in the NBA that season, but Jokic is not an all-time great and the Nuggets drop off quite a bit after their top 4 players and the depth was weak. A good, not great, team.

Big gap

5) Maybe the 2010 Lakers or 2006 Heat, but both of those teams were pretty good.

Every other NBA Champion has A) at least 1 all-time great player, B) at least 2 other superstars of the era, C) very good depth, and D) usually has a top coach. Even 2 of my top 3 worst NBA Champions had among the best coaches of all time (Rudy Tomjanovich and Steve Kerr). Of the 3 mediocre-ish NBA Champions of the last 45 years, 2 of them occurred during the pandemic. A team as flawed as the Mavericks does not win titles unless the playoffs turn into total chaos like 1994, and the Celtics in the Finals is not chaos. I am not sure Tatum is an all-time great yet, but the Celtics have FOUR superstars of their era (Tatum, Brown, Porzingis, Holliday) and depth. Mazzula is TBD.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Mavs in 6. If Celtics play like they did vs. Indiana with bench warmers Nembhard and McConnell getting whatever they want I change my pick to Mavs in 4.

I am struggling to see how the Celtics sweeping the Pacers reflects poorly on the Celtics. These are NBA players and the Pacers don't suck. They are going to score. Were you expecting a shutout?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Mavs in 6. If Celtics play like they did vs. Indiana with bench warmers Nembhard and McConnell getting whatever they want I change my pick to Mavs in 4.

The Pacers offense is a lot better than Dallas’. Highest scoring team in the league.

 

[The Yakk]

The rules were unbelievably stupid. At one point players were forced to sit out if unvaccinated but the fans in the crowd didn't have to be vaccinated.

I wouldn't say "stupid", more like "cynical and greedy".

Requiring vaccines for the players was for the purpose of keeping the season going. A Covid outbreak among players could cancel games and cost the owners money.

Requiring vaccines for the fans would have hurt attendance and cost the owners money. Since it was unlikely the players would get infected by the fans, the owners were fine risking an outbreak among those attending a game.

But let's say "stupid" is correct. Still doesn't excuse Kyrie.

 

[temery]

I was following it rather closely at the time and not once did he ever make clear that he believed getting vaccinated would be detrimental to his health. His objection was that it was mandatory. People on the Yankees didn't like Steinbrenner telling them to cut their moustaches but they did it.

He said plenty of good things in Boston too.

Vaccines weren't mandatory for his health. He was literally saying screw everyone else, I'm not getting the vaccine.

 

[HuskyBoi]

Mavs in 6

 

[UofCT]

I am struggling to see how the Celtics sweeping the Pacers reflects poorly on the Celtics. These are NBA players and the Pacers don't suck. They are going to score. Were you expecting a shutout?

As a Pacers fan yeah I was expecting the Celtics to flex and sweep in convincing fashion. Instead, 3/4 games came down to wire. Total coin flip that happened to go the Celtics way. Wasn’t impressed with them at all.

 

[willie99]

Mavs in 6. If Celtics play like they did vs. Indiana with bench warmers Nembhard and McConnell getting whatever they want I change my pick to Mavs in 4.

C's in 5, I'm assuming they take a game off

 

[willie99]

Vaccines weren't mandatory for his health. He was literally saying screw everyone else, I'm not getting the vaccine.

Kryie was run out of three locker rooms. I was ecstatic when they signed up, 18 months later I wanted him gone. He ruined the chemistry they had.

Then we were told he would change for his hometown team. We'll flat earth thought he was going to be the GM, and the Nets ran him out of town too

A few weeks of decent basketball doesn't erase his history

Maybe he'll mature like Kobe did and become well liked and respected. But it's more likely he continues to be like a Stephon Marberry.

Can't wait

 

[Matrim55]

Vaccines weren't mandatory for his health. He was literally saying screw everyone else, I'm not getting the vaccine.

Yup. He simply did not care about the hospitals being overrun, or immunocompromised people.

But hey, winning changed everything. I’m sure people will be singing Aaron Rodgers’ praises if he leads the Jets to the Super Bowl, too.

 

[bendm]

Jokic is not an all-time great

What??? In the past 4 years he has 3 MVPs and a Finals MVP. As good of a four year run as there’s ever been. He’s already a top 20 player all time.

 

[Scoe]

What??? In the past 4 years he has 3 MVPs and a Finals MVP. As good of a four year run as there’s ever been. He’s already a top 20 player all time.

He likes Serbian horses though so he’s not an all time great.

 

[Matrim55]

4) 2023 Denver Nuggets - A good team with the best player in the NBA that season, but Jokic is not an all-time great and the Nuggets drop off quite a bit after their top 4 players and the depth was weak. A good, not great, team.

Jokic's career playoff numbers are 28/12/7.5 on 53/39/84 shooting splits. He's got the highest playoff PER all-time -- ahead of Jordan -- and the second-highest box +/- just behind Jordan and ahead of LeBron.

He's also, I believe, the only finals MVP to win a title without having a single teammate who'd made either the All-Star game or All-NBA within the previous half-decade.

If Jokic retires tomorrow he goes down as, at worst, one of the 25 greatest ever. Probably closer to 15.

 

[Mr. French]

Yup. He simply did not care about the hospitals being overrun, or immunocompromised people.

But hey, winning changed everything. I’m sure people will be singing Aaron Rodgers’ praises if he leads the Jets to the Super Bowl, too.

For a segment of the population, he's already praised. Me? I hope he keeps choking into his old age.

 

[HooperScooper]

Because players aren’t as attached to their team as fans on social media are. There’s the Twitter world then the real world. Not a fan of Kyrie but he is probably not the worse person on earth is just my guess.

I'm sure he's not either. But I'm talking in the realm of basketball. Ask all of his coaches in Boston how they felt about him.

 

[HooperScooper]

Mavs in 6. If Celtics play like they did vs. Indiana with bench warmers Nembhard and McConnell getting whatever they want I change my pick to Mavs in 4.

Cool. You should put money on that.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Jokic's career playoff numbers are 28/12/7.5 on 53/39/84 shooting splits. He's got the highest playoff PER all-time -- ahead of Jordan -- and the second-highest box +/- just behind Jordan and ahead of LeBron.

He's also, I believe, the only finals MVP to win a title without having a single teammate who'd made either the All-Star game or All-NBA within the previous half-decade.

If Jokic retires tomorrow he goes down as, at worst, one of the 25 greatest ever. Probably closer to 15.

I am not laying down on the tracks arguing against Jokic. I think he is a great player. I don't think he is Top 10 all time at his position yet, but that could change.

 

[Kemba'sYogurt]

Just moved to Boston at the end of February. As a UConn and Celtics fan, I've been spoiled in my few months here. Got to see our boys romp through TD Garden and now will be at Game 1 of the NBA Finals.

 

[Matrim55]

I am not laying down on the tracks arguing against Jokic. I think he is a great player. I don't think he is Top 10 all time at his position yet, but that could change.

I will grant you these seven:

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Moses
7. Mikan

The only other guys I could plausibly see ahead of Joker are Walton & Robinson, but that feels like we're stretching it. And he's definitely passed Willis, Unseld, Ewing, McAdoo & Cowens.