Napier vs. Walker: Who's Better? (Insider)

[Husky25]

Yup, Jamaal Franklin and Malcom Thomas, and prior to the UConn loss they only lost to one other team all year in BYU and then they wiped them out in the MWC tourney. Really no basis to call that team overrated other than them not being a traditional name.

Brandon Davies was dismissed by the time the MWC Tourney started.

 

[B1GEast]

I remember when we debated if Marcus Williams was the best uconn PG, man it just gets better, I wonder who the conversation will be about a few years from now.

 

[Husky25]

And we could have lost to BC, Florida, et al this year, but we didn't. And that's what matters. It only matters who you beat (or lose to).

True, but without beating WSU, UConn cannot even claim a match up with MSU or UK. I didn't say that OOC was not a factor in seeding and tourney draw, I only said (I didn't even overtly say it. I intimated at best)that 5 in 5 was a bigger one. We're splitting hairs at this point.

 

[Husky25]

"Could have"
Also could have lost in Sweet 16. or many other times.
I think you do discount UConn's record outside the BE RS. It was 23-0. That's really astounding, when you think about it. Given the quality of teams they played for those 23 wins. UConn's BE record had more to do with refs not calling any fouls on Kemba's drives than anything else. Before that, they were winning games by 5-10 points, and suddenly they were losing them by 5.

No, it was 13-0. Five of those OOC wins occurred after Selection Sunday (Beat Cinci in the round of 32) and another five were in the BET, which by definition, are wins vs. conference opponents.

Three OOC opponents were ranked and were obviously quality, but only 2 were true upsets by the numbers. UConn was ranked #8 at #12 Texas.

 

[UConn17]

No, it was 13-0. Five of those OOC wins occurred after Selection Sunday (Beat Cinci in the round of 32) and another five were in the BET, which by definition, are wins vs. conference opponents.

Three OOC opponents were ranked and were obviously quality, but only 2 were true upsets by the numbers. UConn was ranked #8 at #12 Texas.

He said regular season

 

[UConnDad]

Too much talk of "winning" again. Seems like it's begining to become an expectation at this point. I don't like it.

It's a difficult habit to kick. As Huskies we like winning!

 

[UConnDad]

True, teams have to take advantage of the breaks, like the '06 team failed to do. The difference(s) is that UConn was a 1 seed and arguably the best team in the country in both 1999 and 2004. They struggled to a .500 Big East Record in 2010-2011 and only got a 3 seed because they won 5 games in 5 nights in early March. I don't think they were the best team in the country by any other measure than winning a 68 team, survive and advance tournament.

If you beat every team you face you've done all you can!

 

[CL82]

A lot broke UConn's way in 2011. They were in the same region as an overrated SDSU and 'Zona beat Duke in the Sweet 16. Then Florida, Kansas, and UNC failed to make it passed the Elite 8, leaving UConn as the top seed in Dallas as a 3. Seeding, draw, and upsets along the way play a bigger role in the Tournament than most care to admit.

...and that it exactly what makes it a great event. Everybody feels like they have a shot to make some noise in the tourney.

 

[CL82]

I remember when we debated if Marcus Williams was the best uconn PG, man it just gets better, I wonder who the conversation will be about a few years from now.

My guess is whoever is added Kemba and Bazz are in the discussion.

 

[upstater]

No, it was 13-0. Five of those OOC wins occurred after Selection Sunday (Beat Cinci in the round of 32) and another five were in the BET, which by definition, are wins vs. conference opponents.

Three OOC opponents were ranked and were obviously quality, but only 2 were true upsets by the numbers. UConn was ranked #8 at #12 Texas.

I'm comparing their record outside the BE regular season to inside the BE regular season.

But regardless, even if you take the 6 NCAA wins out (and I don't see why you would since we're looking at the team's overall accomplishments), the team was still 17-0 outside the BE RE. That undefeated record really does count in the eyes of the committee. It counts a lot.

 

[Husky25]

If you beat every team you face you've done all you can!

To be sure...but that's not my point. UConn did all that they could and I had a great time watching them, but they had help. period...It was my opinion that while almost every National Champion gets help in some way shape, or form some need it a little less than others. Call it senior year naïveté if you will, but I thought there was nothing that the '98-99 team couldn't overcome in getting to the National Championship game considering the run to the 1998 Elite 8.. Despite being a #2 seed, I had a similar feeling in 2004 (Until I heard Okafor wasn't 100%). There was no such feeling in 2011.

He said regular season

Thanks for that clarification, but I still don't think it can be looked at like that.

First of all 13-0 is impressive to be sure, as is beating the #2, #9, and #12 teams in the country at the time of tip-off along the way.

But not only are the last six wins an unexplainable magic carpet ride, they don't factor into seeding or bracket draw. That moves the relevant win total to 18 (excluding UC in the R32). The 9-9 record is the reason that UConn was a 9 seed and had to play in a BET 1st round game. No 1st round bye is what made 5 in 5 even a remote possibility and 5 in 5 was a major factor in the national attention garnered by that particular team.

 

[pj]

Napier very well might be underrated on the boneyard ... you guys must not realize what we are witnessing.
Kleanord doesn't equal cody zeller btw, try watching some nba. That SDSU team was legit, had two other nba players on it.

Come on. Shabazz is the best player in college basketball today. Saying Kemba was better in no way depreciates Bazz, since what Kemba did was unparalleled in my memory. Other great players who led their teams to championships had much stronger supporting casts. I've never seen anything like that 2011 team.

 

[Husky25]

I'm comparing their record outside the BE regular season to inside the BE regular season.

But regardless, even if you take the 6 NCAA wins out (and I don't see why you would since we're looking at the team's overall accomplishments), the team was still 17-0 outside the BE RE. That undefeated record really does count in the eyes of the committee. It counts a lot.

You can't count the last 6 wins because the games haven't been played yet when the committee makes their selection. It all counts, to be sure, but the 5 in 5 was a just more of a factor IMO. Not only did UConn go into the NCAA Tournament with a 14-9 record vs. conference opponents (instead of 9-10, 10-10, 11-10...you get the picture), it was the way they did it. It was an improbable scenario. We can all agree that it was a wild and magical ride, but the fact that it was so, made the national media take notice. That is all I'm trying to say.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

I honestly can't believe we're having this discussion. They're both phenomenal players but kemba was better. Probably much better. He probably had the single GREATEST season in uconn history. Would anyone really say that about shabazz this year?

Kemba also played in what may have been the greatest conference of all time. The 2011 big east was incredible. College basketball is way down this year. Not a single really good team. We also have 5 losses in the AAC.

Shabazz is great but come on. Kemba was greater.

 

[upstater]

You can't count the last 6 wins because the games haven't been played yet when the committee makes their selection.

That's why i wrote, "Take the 6 NCAA wins out and you still have a 17-0 record."

The BET championship impressed everyone and made big headlines. The 17-0 record was what landed them the seed.

 

[UChusky916]

The answer right now is Kemba. But Bazz isn't finished.

The fact that we're even having this discussion after what Kemba did here is a testament to how to awesome Napier is as well. Kemba is 'better' but Bazz may mean more to the program after the past 2 years of transition we've been through. Tough call though because Bazz also had the luxury of being Kemba's pupil.

Many fanbases arent lucky enough to have 1 of these types of players come along... Let alone two within a few years. Sit back and enjoy Bazz while he's here.

 

[Husky25]

That's why i wrote, "Take the 6 NCAA wins out and you still have a 17-0 record (and I don't see why you would since we're looking at the team's overall accomplishments)."

The BET championship impressed everyone and made big headlines. The 17-0 record was what landed them the seed.

You originally said 23-0. but that is water under the bridge. I think it's the other 5 wins because it was fresher in people's minds and over such a truncated timeline (Did I mention 5 wins in 5 days?). At the very least, we can agree on the magic...

Good discussion, Upstater. Talk to you later. Gotta go home.

 

[tzznandrew]

Both St. John's and West Virginia were damn good teams, rankings be damned. That's revisionist history. And Louisville got upset in the tourney because their leading scorer got injured. They were legit, and were a bucket away from having won the BET.

 

[Strummer]

Anything short of a NC this year, Kemba>Shabazz.
An NC this year, Shabazz>Kemba, because Shabazz would then have 2 NCs, with his contribution important to one and essential to the other, and he would have won his 2nd at the helm with substantially less talent than Kemba had, nothwithstanding any age differences.

 

[NHUConnfan]

we talked a lot about "WINNING" in 2011. It was a lot more effective than animal house.

Uh...#winning!

(Freaking Charlie Sheen...)

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I was not taking anything away from that team in the least. It was a great ride. All I said was that a lot broke UConn's way (as is typically the case when a non-elite team wins, which I consider to be a 1 or 2 seed), but without a 1 or 2 seed and including an 8 and 11 seed, the 2011 Final Four is generally considered to be one of the weakest in recent history.

Calling them non- elite is simply ignorant. That had hammered UK a final 4 team
The fact was the Big East allowed mugging was the main factor in 9 BE losses. They were undefeated when playing actual BB rules.
In the tourney they played what were essentially road games against SDSU,and U of A. I have friends in San Diego and that team was thinking FF.
U of A had one of the best players in the country and probably would have won NC if they beat us. We had to beat UK a second time ,always difficult in the Semis.
and shut down a repeat FF team to win it. That sounds like an easy task.

 

[tzznandrew]

Perhaps the best resume comparison thus far is this years' Kansas team. Glut of losses, but a ton of Top 25 and Top 50 RPI wins. Kansas just spread them out more over the regular season than the 2011 UConn team did. And no one would be shocked if Kansas won the whole thing this year.

 

[Husky25]

Really? A 1or 2 seed is at least top 10 in the country. If you thought that UConn was elite entering March coming off a 4-7 stretch, then the one ignoring reality is surely not I.

Calling them non- elite is simply ignorant. That had hammered UK a final 4 team
The fact was the Big East allowed mugging was the main factor in 9 BE losses. They were undefeated when playing actual BB rules.
In the tourney they played what were essentially road games against SDSU,and U of A. I have friends in San Diego and that team was thinking FF.
U of A had one of the best players in the country and probably would have won NC if they beat us. We had to beat UK a second time ,always difficult in the Semis.
and shut down a repeat FF team to win it. That sounds like an easy task.

 

[Gurleyman]

A lot broke UConn's way in 2011. They were in the same region as an overrated SDSU and 'Zona beat Duke in the Sweet 16. Then Florida, Kansas, and UNC failed to make it passed the Elite 8, leaving UConn as the top seed in Dallas as a 3. Seeding, draw, and upsets along the way play a bigger role in the Tournament than most care to admit.

While theres some truth to what you're saying - particularly with the Final Four not having a one seed, SDSU and Arizona were road games, basically. Those are the type of games other teams of ours didn't win. Arizona also didn't just beat Duke they backed over the corpse and ran it over a second time. That was a scary team the way they were playing.

Plus, they got no breaks in the BET and won that too.

 

[UConnNick]

Kemba was better on the court, but 'Bazz has done something unselfish for UCONN which even transcends his on-court performance. He has assured that the torch is passed to the next generation of great Husky BB players, at a point in time when the program could have gone in the other direction. For that, I see them as complete equals, neither one better than the other in any significant respect. They will both be tremendous ambassadors of UCONN for the rest of their lives. We are very lucky to have both of them.