Napier vs. Walker: Who's Better? (Insider)

[Inyatkin]

True, teams have to take advantage of the breaks, like the '06 team failed to do. The difference(s) is that UConn was a 1 seed and arguably the best team in the country in both 1999 and 2004. They struggled to a .500 Big East Record in 2010-2011 and only got a 3 seed because they won 5 games in 5 nights in early March. I don't think they were the best team in the country by any other measure than winning a 68 team, survive and advance tournament.

We were a 2-seed in '04, though one of the pre-tournament favorites, no question. But we were reeling somewhat before the Big East tournament, and arguably only got that 2 seed because we got hot at the right time, just like 2011.
I will never understand the constant harping on the 9-9 record, though. Suppose the season went exactly the same, but we lost to Texas and then in the Big East final, exchanging those for two Big East regular season wins. We'd still have gone 32-9 and won the national championship, but done it with an 11-7 conference record.
Would that have been more valuable? More meaningful? Why?
It wouldn't. The 9-9 record represents an ultimately arbitrary subset of games. It takes nothing away from what that team did.

 

[upstater]

A lot broke UConn's way in 2011. They were in the same region as an overrated SDSU and 'Zona beat Duke in the Sweet 16. Then Florida, Kansas, and UNC failed to make it passed the Elite 8, leaving UConn as the top seed in Dallas as a 3. Seeding, draw, and upsets along the way play a bigger role in the Tournament than most care to admit.

Only relevant in the case of Kansas. Those other teams were frauds. UConn beat the Arizona team that annihilated Duke. Are you saying Duke was better than Arizona? How can you even say that? As for UNC, one of the worst defensive teams in NCAA history. Other than Kansas, UConn faced the 2 best teams in the tourney, Arizona and Kentucky. If SD ST. was really so overrated, then how do you account for them outplaying the team (UConn) that beat 2 of the best 3 teams in the tourney?

Before the tourney started, UConn was the 4th most popular pick to win it all on all the ESPN brackets.

2004 had a much easier run than 2011 did.

 

[Husky25]

What made SDSU overrated besides you saying so?

Nothing. It's my opinion. Just like Pal stating that Walker is the best point guard in UConn history. He may be emphatic in his statement, but it's still only his opinion. I will say this though: Many an overrated team has had a lottery pick (Cody Zeller, anyone?). It doesn't make them (Indiana) any less overrated.

We were a 2-seed in '04, though one of the pre-tournament favorites, no question. But we were reeling somewhat before the Big East tournament, and arguably only got that 2 seed because we got hot at the right time, just like 2011.
I will never understand the constant harping on the 9-9 record, though. Suppose the season went exactly the same, but we lost to Texas and then in the Big East final, exchanging those for two Big East regular season wins. We'd still have gone 32-9 and won the national championship, but done it with an 11-7 conference record.
Would that have been more valuable? More meaningful? Why?
It wouldn't. The 9-9 record represents an ultimately arbitrary subset of games. It takes nothing away from what that team did.

That's revisionist history. UConn still lost to unranked St. Johns and West Virginia, as well as #23 Louisville when UConn was ranked #5. If UConn doesn't win the Big East Tournament, they go into the NCAA Tourney with 25 or less wins and an At large bid. In all likelihood, they do not get a 3 seed, nor in the same bracket. The 9-9 record is important because UConn lost 7 out of 11 before getting on the bus for Manhattan, all were Big East opponents, and 6 were ranked lower than UConn at the time they played.

 

[Husky25]

Only relevant in the case of Kansas. Those other teams were frauds. UConn beat the Arizona team that annihilated Duke. Are you saying Duke was better than Arizona? How can you even say that? As for UNC, one of the worst defensive teams in NCAA history. Other than Kansas, UConn faced the 2 best teams in the tourney, Arizona and Kentucky. If SD ST. was really so overrated, then how do you account for them outplaying the team (UConn) that beat 2 of the best 3 teams in the tourney?

Because any one team can beat another on any given day (FGCU says hi, so does George Mason, Villanova and NC State.).

Before the tourney started, UConn was the 4th most popular pick to win it all on all the ESPN brackets.

Because they just won 5 games in 5 days, upsetting (by the polls) 3 of those teams. The 5 in 5 got UConn a lot of national press.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

If you were to compare their regular seasons (without tournaments), then it becomes much tougher to say Kemba was better. Kemba really shined in the NCAAs in 2011 (obviously) and as freshman in the regional final vs Mizzou. At this time, he is just one of a few Huskies to play in two final fours. Now, comparing the regular season games, who was better? I would say Bazz.

WHAT? Kemba averaged 24 points a game that year and 5 and 5. Halfway through the year he was scoring close to 27 points a game. His numbers actually declined in the postseason (and a lot in the final four). the big east tourney is when he really shined (regular season and NCAA he was great, but big east was insane).

Man, people have short memories. Shabazz has been unbelievable, but Kemba was other-worldly and may have had the greatest season ever. Shabazz has had a few stinkers and has played considerably inferior competition all year. This is no slight to Shabazz as he should easy be first team all american and probably player of the year, but hes not Kemba. Nobody was and ever will be again.

 

[Palatine]

A lot broke UConn's way in 2011. They were in the same region as an overrated SDSU and 'Zona beat Duke in the Sweet 16. Then Florida, Kansas, and UNC failed to make it passed the Elite 8, leaving UConn as the top seed in Dallas as a 3. Seeding, draw, and upsets along the way play a bigger role in the Tournament than most care to admit.

That's part of winning a national championship. We could have easily lost the Arizona game. But the kid didn't hit the three. We didn't make the o6 final four because our guy (who once scored 111 points in a high school game) missed the three. There are all kinds of crazy things that happen in the tourney, if Tynus Edney doesn't make a miracle dash down the court, we probably win the 96 NC. Regardless, it's tough to win a NC, PERIOD.

 

[upstater]

Because they just won 5 games in 5 days, upsetting (by the polls) 3 of those teams. The 5 in 5 got UConn a lot of national press.

Undefeated outside the conference regular season. That also impressed them. The whole year they were undefeated outside that 9-9 stretch.

 

[Husky25]

Undefeated outside the conference regular season. That also impressed them. The whole year they were undefeated outside that 9-9 stretch.

Sports is a very What-have-you-done-for-me-lately atmosphere. The 5 in 5 BET led SportsCenter and the CBS basketball analysis type shows for a solid week.

 

[upstater]

Sports is a very What-have-you-done-for-me-lately atmosphere. The 5 in 5 BET led SportsCenter and the CBS basketball analysis type shows for a solid week.

If they had gone 5-0 that week, and lost in the season to Texas, Michigan St. and Kentucky, they would have been a 12 loss team ranked 24 or so (at best) and they would have not been in the top 10, and they wouldn't have been the #4 most popular pick.

 

[Inyatkin]

Nothing. It's my opinion. Just like Pal stating that Walker is the best point guard in UConn history. He may be emphatic in his statement, but it's still only his opinion. I will say this though: Many an overrated team has had a lottery pick (Cody Zeller, anyone?). It doesn't make them (Indiana) any less overrated.


That's revisionist history. UConn still lost to unranked St. Johns and West Virginia, as well as #23 Louisville when UConn was ranked #5. If UConn doesn't win the Big East Tournament, they go into the NCAA Tourney with 25 or less wins and an At large bid. In all likelihood, they do not get a 3 seed, nor in the same bracket. The 9-9 record is important because UConn lost 7 out of 11 before getting on the bus for Manhattan, all were Big East opponents, and 6 were ranked lower than UConn at the time they played.

The whole point of the post is that it's revisionist history. They had nine losses, which is a lot for a national champion. But it makes no difference where those nine losses came.

 

[Husky25]

That's part of winning a national championship...Regardless, it's tough to win a NC, PERIOD.

I was not taking anything away from that team in the least. It was a great ride. All I said was that a lot broke UConn's way (as is typically the case when a non-elite team wins, which I consider to be a 1 or 2 seed), but without a 1 or 2 seed and including an 8 and 11 seed, the 2011 Final Four is generally considered to be one of the weakest in recent history.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Even if UConn were to win the tourney this year, I'd still be willing to say that Kemba was better. It's not a slight to Shabazz. He's been fantastic. But Walker was legendary. It's easy to forget how young that 2011 team was. It's close, but I'm always going to give the edge to Kemba.

As much as I love SN. (The Dr I went to today is named Shabazz.)
No one ever did what Kemba did with a very talented but immature class.
Were those guys actually shaving yet?
SN has an experienced group around him including a post grad,and
a backcourt guy he has had three full seasons with.

 

[ctchamps]

What made SDSU overrated besides you saying so? That team had a lottery pick on their roster in Kawhi Leonard, and we had to play them in what was virtually a home game for them. Also, its not like Zona squeezed by Duke, they embarrased them, they also had the #2 pick on their roster with Derrick Williams, and it was basically another home game for them with the crowd decidely in their favor. Kentucky had sort of an up and down season but its not like they were short on talent, Brandon Knight, Terrence Jones, Doron Lamb, Darius Miller, DeAndre Liggins and Josh Harrellson are all guys who are currently on NBA rosters.

The breaks were that none of those last second shots went in that would have ended the season - Zona, Kentucky as examples. All season long the previous year, teams hit pretty nearly every one of those end of half and end of game shots to win close ones. The opposite took place in 2011 particularly in the tournaments. It was karma. It's why there was a lid on the basket for Butler. It's the only explanation I have for such polar opposite outcomes from one year to the next. And I give credit for this karma to Dyson. He was the sacrificial lamb that gave UConn it's third NC.

 

[Husky25]

If they had gone 5-0 that week, and lost in the season to Texas, Michigan St. and Kentucky, they would have been a 12 loss team ranked 24 or so (at best) and they would have not been in the top 10, and they wouldn't have been the #4 most popular pick.

Twelve losses does not a 3 seed have.

The whole point of the post is that it's revisionist history. They had nine losses, which is a lot for a national champion. But it makes no difference where those nine losses came.

If UConn lost at any point in the BET, they would not have been considered the "Hot" team poised for a run. They did something no other team in the history of college basketball had done. It was made all the more impressive considering they lost 7 of 11 to close out the season.

 

[upstater]

Twelve losses does not a 3 seed have.

Huh? I was pointing out that their undefeated record outside the BE regular season most certainly figured into their top 10 ranking, their seed, and the fact that they were one of the favorites to win it all. It wasn't only the BET that figured into that, as you suggested.

 

[ctchamps]

As much as I love SN. (The Dr I went to today is named Shabazz.)
No one ever did what Kemba did with a very talented but immature class.
Were those guys actually shaving yet?
SN has an experienced group around him including a post grad,and
a backcourt guy he has had three full seasons with.

True. But the only way to know for certain who was better would be to give those players to Bazz and see what he would have done with them (a junior Bazz and a freshman Kemba). Since that's not possible, we're going to have to apply subjective evaluations.

Needless to say both players have provided remarkable leadership and made the players around them much better than they would have been under different leadership.

Some measure people by outcomes. Nothing wrong with that. I'm still pinching myself with regards to that 11 straight tournament wins. But I'm more invested in the process. How did the leaders help others? How much was it necessary for them to take over when nothing else was working? How often was that successful? And how often were the leaders clutch. Using these parameters I would say Kemba Walker mentored his successor very well.

 

[intlzncster]

Playing in the Big East was SO much harder than the AAC. UConn struggled more in the BE that year because we were a one player team for most of the year. The frosh didn't step up consistently until tournament time. Kemba just go the beat out of him in the regular season.

UCOnn went what 14-0 in tournament games? Most of that was on Kemba's back. KW was clearly the best player in the country (never mind pudgy middle age writers' opinions about Jimmer Chitwood).

I don't even think it's as close as people are making it.

 

[pj]

Kemba was better in the Post Season and in the clutch, last shot of game, to win it. Bazz overall better reg season. IMHO BOTH are/were great

Kemba was awesome all season but he was sacrificing himself to develop Lamb, Bazz, Roscoe, Oriakhi. The team struggled as Big East physicality put the freshmen off their stride and nicked up Kemba. When the freshmen improved and found their roles and winning time came, Kemba's superiority was obvious.

Shabazz has had a more experienced supporting cast all year so it's no surprise he's looked good on the offensive end. But he hasn't been as dominant as Kemba. As a team this year our fate depends on improving defense and rebounding. I am hoping for continued progress.

 

[Husky25]

Huh? I was pointing out that their undefeated record outside the BE regular season most certainly figured into their top 10 ranking, their seed, and the fact that they were one of the favorites to win it all. It wasn't only the BET that figured into that, as you suggested.

Where did I say, "only?"

5 in 5 was absolutely a major contributing factor. They beat 4 nationally ranked teams (3 were higher than them) in 4 days (within the 5 in 5) which absolutely made the national media take notice...just as they noticed at Thanksgiving when UConn upset two top ten teams and jumped up at least 15 spots in their own right. However, the 7 losses in 11 games sort of took the bloom off the rose until they got to NYC.

I don't discount UConn's OOC record that year, but they could have easily lost to Wichita St. in Maui and been relegated to playing Chaminade and not even get the opportunity to play, let alone beat MSU and/or UK.

 

[James]

Napier very well might be underrated on the boneyard ... you guys must not realize what we are witnessing.
Kleanord doesn't equal cody zeller btw, try watching some nba. That SDSU team was legit, had two other nba players on it.

 

[aceboon]

Napier very well might be underrated on the boneyard ... you guys must not realize what we are witnessing.
Kleanord doesn't equal cody zeller btw, try watching some nba. That SDSU team was legit, had two other nba players on it.

Yup, Jamaal Franklin and Malcom Thomas, and prior to the UConn loss they only lost to one other team all year in BYU and then they wiped them out in the MWC tourney. Really no basis to call that team overrated other than them not being a traditional name.

 

[tcf15]

Also, can't discount the fact that SDSU played some games in high altitude. That has to count for something.

 

[Husky25]

Napier very well might be underrated on the boneyard ... you guys must not realize what we are witnessing.
Kleanord doesn't equal cody zeller btw, try watching some nba. That SDSU team was legit, had two other nba players on it.

The game is played differently in the NBA than college and I enjoy a high level college game far more than one at the NBA. There are two similarities between college and pro basketball. The games are called by the same name and the majority of players in one once played in the other. 10 foot hoops, and a 94' x 50' court don't much matter beyond that.

 

[intlzncster]

Where did I say, "only?"

5 in 5 was absolutely a major contributing factor. They beat 4 nationally ranked teams (3 were higher than them) in 4 days (within the 5 in 5) which absolutely made the national media take notice...just as they noticed at Thanksgiving when UConn upset two top ten teams and jumped up at least 15 spots in their own right. However, the 7 losses in 11 games sort of took the bloom off the rose until they got to NYC.

I don't discount UConn's OOC record that year, but they could have easily lost to Wichita St. in Maui and been relegated to playing Chaminade and not even get the opportunity to play, let alone beat MSU and/or UK.

And we could have lost to BC, Florida, et al this year, but we didn't. And that's what matters. It only matters who you beat (or lose to).

 

[upstater]

Where did I say, "only?"

5 in 5 was absolutely a major contributing factor. They beat 4 nationally ranked teams (3 were higher than them) in 4 days (within the 5 in 5) which absolutely made the national media take notice...just as they noticed at Thanksgiving when UConn upset two top ten teams and jumped up at least 15 spots in their own right. However, the 7 losses in 11 games sort of took the bloom off the rose until they got to NYC.

I don't discount UConn's OOC record that year, but they could have easily lost to Wichita St. in Maui and been relegated to playing Chaminade and not even get the opportunity to play, let alone beat MSU and/or UK.

"Could have"

Also could have lost in Sweet 16. or many other times.

I think you do discount UConn's record outside the BE RS. It was 23-0. That's really astounding, when you think about it. Given the quality of teams they played for those 23 wins. UConn's BE record had more to do with refs not calling any fouls on Kemba's drives than anything else. Before that, they were winning games by 5-10 points, and suddenly they were losing them by 5.