OT: - Napheesa has her say on WNBA leadership | Page 3 | The Boneyard

OT: Napheesa has her say on WNBA leadership

And in other business news, there is no conflict of interest between the W and Unrivaled. period. Conflict of interest only happens when a person or entity is contractually forbidden from working for or representing another firm, competing or not. If there is no contract or agreement that prohibits one person from running two businesses, or working at the same position at two different companies, then it's a moot point. Now, most businesses will have that in their employee contract, but apparently the WNBA, or anyone hiring Naphessa or Breanna, hadn't figured on them starting a different league. That they did is just to their credit. Can the WNBA stop Unrivaled from doing anything they want? As they have no ownership stake or leadership position, the answer is a big no. Will some sort of change in this in terms of employee service be a part of the new CBA? I would think so, as the WNBA needs to try to close a pretty big loophole. Whether or not they're successful will be interesting to see.
But I can see why the W didn't want to invest in Unrivaled: any sort of league where the employees not only own, but run the ship, is not a business model that the NFL, NHL, MLB would like to see succeed. In that respect, the WNBA was taking one for the major league sports teams.
And for those who think a competing league can't succeed enough to cause tremors in the establishment, look no further than the AFL (Joe Namath and the Jets!), the ABL with Dr. J, and the AHL, whith whatever hockey players jumped (I can't remember who they were.) So it happens, and historically, the W's success is a very short timeline. If it weren't for the Caitlins and Paiges, or the rivalries (like Clark and Reese throwing shade at each other during the finals) that have happened over the past few years, they'd still be in the financial dark ages. As good as the early players were (and some still are), there's that rivalry x-factor from college that makes for conversation, and that can only happen organically. Being a Smokin' Joe Frazier fan is one thing, but when it elevates to Frazier Vs. Ali, it's a phenomenon, and no one could have predicted that 5 years earlier. The W is in a very lucky place right now, let's hope they right the ship.
 
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Dogdude said:
And in other business news, there is no conflict of interest between the W and Unrivaled. period. Conflict of interest only happens when a person or entity is contractually forbidden from working for or representing another firm, competing or not. If there is no contract or agreement that prohibits one person from running two businesses, or working at the same position at two different companies, then it's a moot point. Now, most businesses will have that in their employee contract, but apparently the WNBA, or anyone hiring Naphessa or Breanna, hadn't figured on them starting a different league. That they did is just to their credit. Can the WNBA stop Unrivaled from doing anything they want? As they have no ownership stake or leadership position, the answer is a big no. Will some sort of change in this in terms of employee service be a part of the new CBA? I would think so, as the WNBA needs to try to close a pretty big loophole. Whether or not they're successful will be interesting to see.
But I can see why the W didn't want to invest in Unrivaled: any sort of league where the employees not only own, but run the ship, is not a business model that the NFL, NHL, MLB would like to see succeed. In that respect, the WNBA was taking one for the major league sports teams.
And for those who think a competing league can't succeed enough to cause tremors in the establishment, look no further than the AFL (Joe Namath and the Jets!), the ABL with Dr. J, and the AHL, which whatever hockey players jumped (I can't remember who they were.) So it happens, and historically, the W's success is a very short timeline. If it weren't for the Caitlins and Paiges, or the rivalries (like Clark and Reese throwing shade at each other during the finals) that have happened dover the past few years, they'd still be in the financial dark ages. As good as the early players were (and some still are), there's that rivalry x-factor from college that makes for conversation, and that can only happen organically. Being a Smokin' Joe Frazier fan is one thing, but when it elevates to Frazier Vs. Ali, it's a phenomenon, and no one could have predicted that 5 years earlier. The W is in a very lucky place right now, let's hope the right the ship.
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I totally agree that there is no conflict of interest, but disagree that the "Will some sort of change in this in terms of employee service be a part of the new CBA? I would think so, as the WNBA needs to try to close a pretty big loophole."

Why? Would the WNBA prohibit players from playing in overseas leagues? For national teams? How is Unrivaled (and Athletes Unlimited) any different? There is no overlap, no competition with the W, those leagues don't try to prevent anyone from playing in the W, etc. You even said "no conflict of interest".

So what right does the W even have to try to squelch the Unrivaled or AU leagues? And why would the NBA, NFL, NHL, or MLB not want the league to be successful? How is it a threat to any of those leagues (including the WNBA)?
 
EricLA said:
I totally agree that there is no conflict of interest, but disagree that the "Will some sort of change in this in terms of employee service be a part of the new CBA? I would think so, as the WNBA needs to try to close a pretty big loophole."

Why? Would the WNBA prohibit players from playing in overseas leagues? For national teams? How is Unrivaled (and Athletes Unlimited) any different? There is no overlap, no competition with the W, those leagues don't try to prevent anyone from playing in the W, etc. You even said "no conflict of interest".

So what right does the W even have to try to squelch the Unrivaled or AU leagues? And why would the NBA, NFL, NHL, or MLB not want the league to be successful? How is it a threat to any of those leagues (including the WNBA)?
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I agree that right now there is no overlap at all, but I can see the fear of Unrivaled growing and taking some of the steam from the W. I can't imagine the league would ever try to limit playing overseas or for national teams, but I could see them trying to limit the growth of Unrivaled in some way. Their ability is limited for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me to see some sort of clauses thrown in specifically for other pro U.S.-based leagues.
 
Side note - just saw these comments by Aja Wilson in another article:

A’ja Wilson used her postgame presser to back Napheesa Collier, praising her courage to speak out against the commissioner: “I just wanna say I was honestly disgusted by the comments Cathy made but at the same time I am very appreciative that we have people like Phee in our committee of the players association, representing us because that’s what we are have to continue to make the push to stand on what we believe in and I am grateful to have those kind of people to be able to continue to speak up for us.”
 
Cuango said:
What are the chances (and legalities) that in the event of a lockout/walkout) by the W, that Unrivaled could switch to 5x5 for next season? Could the W, or more likely the NBA stop them from doing that? Could/Would that, if successful, result in the death of the W? I suppose much would depend on financial backing but Unrivaled did not seem to have much trouble raising money last year for what were very high salaries compared to what the W was paying at the time
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EricLA said:
I'm not sure why some people insist the WNBA is not profitable for the owners. If that were the case, cities/investors would not be falling over themselves to put bids forward to try to get a franchise. These teams have already committed to join:
On the waiting list is still Boston:
  • Nashville, Tennessee: A Nashville group, backed by former WNBA player Candace Parker, NFL Hall of Fame quarterback Peyton Manning and Nashville Predators owner Bill Haslam. It wants to name the team the Nashville Summitt in honor of late University of Tennessee women's basketball coach Pat Summitt.
  • Houston: Houston Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta is leading the bid for of the league's original cities. "It's time to bring the WNBA back to Houston," Fertitta told the Houston Chronicle in January. Fertitta has submitted a formal bid.
  • Milwaukee: The Bucks' ownership group had expressed interest in putting in a bid for an expansion WNBA team in October 2024 but did not submit an official bid before the deadline for the 16th team.
  • Kansas City: Patrick Mahomes is part of an ownership group that has expressed interest in recruiting an expansion team to Kansas City. “We want to get basketball to Kansas City in general, and then WNBA and the success that they’ve had these last few seasons, it’s kind of a no-brainer,” Mahomes said in November 2024.
  • St. Louis: Boston Celtics star Jayson Tatum is reportedly part of an ownership group trying to lure the WNBA to Tatum's hometown.
  • Austin, Texas: A group backed by Kevin Durant was considering a bid for a WNBA franchise last year, according to a Sports Business Journal report.
So in conclusion - 1 new team this past year. 5 more to be added between next season and 2030. 7 cities currently waiting for the next round of expansions, and most of them already have investors in place. BUT... "No... the WNBA is not profitable". Ever heard of non-cash expenses/deductions? Not trying to do a Tax Class but...

For businesses, non-cash expenses can be significant. The most common types include:
  • Depreciation:This deduction accounts for the wear and tear or obsolescence of tangible assets, such as vehicles, equipment, and buildings.
    • Bonus depreciation: For 2025, businesses can deduct 40% of the cost of eligible assets in the first year they are put into service. This is scheduled to phase out completely in 2027.
    • Section 179 deduction: This allows businesses to expense the full purchase price of qualifying equipment or software up to a certain limit in the year of purchase.
  • Amortization: This is the equivalent of depreciation for intangible assets, such as patents, copyrights, trademarks, and goodwill. These costs are typically deducted over a 15-year period.
  • Depletion: This applies to the use of natural resources, such as timber, oil, and minerals, as they are extracted from the earth.
  • Charitable contributions: Businesses can donate inventory or other non-cash assets to a qualified charity and potentially deduct the fair market value of the property.
  • Bad debt expense: Under the accrual method of accounting, companies can recognize the expense for customer debts they believe will not be paid.
  • Stock-based compensation: The cost of stock options or other equity given to employees is a non-cash expense that can be deducted.
So... ya think any of these WNBA teams have taken advantage of this to make the bottom line lower, and pay less taxes????? 😱2025-26 Women's Basketball Schedule - University of Connecticut Athletics
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EricLA said:
Well said, Eric LA. Lot of dialogue about the W owners and investors not making a profit and I was wondering when someone on the Boneyard would chime in with the fact that there are significant tax write-offs that for these top tier wealthy owners are quite beneficial for them through amortization of the intangible assets like player contracts, broadcast media deals, branding and goodwill, season ticket receipts, league rights and probably more.
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When someone buys a team for billions of $ they can immediately allocate a large portion of that to these intangible assets and then can deduct that amount in equal segments over 15 years. We are talking about the top 1% earners here. A billionaire owner with a profitable business can use the tax losses from the team they just bought to offset the income from their other profitable business(es) reducing the total tax bite they owe.

Someone will point out that Congress and the IRS are looking to reduce this tax benefit considering the investment akin to a "hobby loss" (wow to be so rwealthy as to buy a team and have the IRS consider it a "hobby". That's a completely different world.) Anyway, so far it hasn't gotten any further than being a proposal. Maybe someone will have more and better info.
 
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msf22b said:
NYT piece details what W players would theoretically earn if the were
paid as much as their NBA counterparts.
Eye-opening (and specific)

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | What It Would Look Like to Pay W.N.B.A. Players What They Deserve

Other professional sports leagues give their players roughly 50 percent of the revenue, but the W.N.B.A. players get less than 10 percent.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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In contrast, here is the current CBA “league-wide revenue sharing scheme”. WNBA Revenue Sharing Explained - by Jacob Mox (HerHoopStats).

It is a Rube-Goldberg Contraption where the players’ share is not directly based on “basketball-related income”. It is very very loosely based on “league-wide revenue” after carve-outs.

The formula for players’ share is 0.5 x 0.7 x Net Overage, where Net Overage is year-over-year difference in Cumulate Revenue over Cumulative Target.

Because of the Covid-shortened season, Cumulative Revenue had a mountain of a Cumulative Target to overcome before Net Overage above to be positive.

As the NYT article says, the NBA’s revenue sharing in the 50s-70s (i.e. before the mid- to late-80s when the NBA allegedly became consistently profitable) already had a not-overly wrought revenue sharing formula that paid players 40%+ of revenues.
 
msf22b said:
NYT piece details what W players would theoretically earn if the were
paid as much as their NBA counterparts.
Eye-opening (and specific)

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | What It Would Look Like to Pay W.N.B.A. Players What They Deserve

Other professional sports leagues give their players roughly 50 percent of the revenue, but the W.N.B.A. players get less than 10 percent.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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Boy is it ever. I've gotten through a portion and this graph caught my eye.

1759497678785.png
 
All other issues aside….. the fact that the league does such a miserable job with the rules and referees justifies the harsh criticism.

Even with all the amazing players ...I personally find the games unwatchable because of this.
 
NycUcWbbFan said:
In contrast, here is the current CBA “league-wide revenue sharing scheme”. WNBA Revenue Sharing Explained - by Jacob Mox (HerHoopStats).

It is a Rube-Goldberg Contraption where the players’ share is not directly based on “basketball-related income”. It is very very loosely based on “league-wide revenue” after carve-outs.

The formula for players’ share is 0.5 x 0.7 x Net Overage, where Net Overage is year-over-year difference in Cumulate Revenue over Cumulative Target.

Because of the Covid-shortened season, Cumulative Revenue had a mountain of a Cumulative Target to overcome before Net Overage above to be positive.

As the NYT article says, the NBA’s revenue sharing in the 50s-70s (i.e. before the mid- to late-80s when the NBA allegedly became consistently profitable) already had a not-overly wrought revenue sharing formula that paid players 40%+ of revenues.
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This seems like right out of the music industry, where the musicians get paid album revenues after a whole bunch of mysterious expenses and write-offs. Out of a $20 cd (who buys those anymore, anyway) the musician might get a buck. The more generous smaller indy artist-run labels would let musicians buy their own cd's for roughly half the regular retail price to sell on tour. So each cd could cost the artist between 7-10 bucks, and they'd have to cart them around and sell for 15-20 at their own shows. The current NBA plan is much more open, even if not exactly transparent. I think that's all anyone can ask for these days: transparency.
 
And this just in from the NY Times.
Does WNBA have ‘worst leadership in the world’? A timeline of Cathy Engelbert’s tenure

I think the basic problem of giving Englebert (or any commissioner who might have been in charge at this point in time) for there financial success of women's basketball has nothing to do with any form of management or promotional efforts; it was entirely the result of the perfect storm of Clark chasing a record in college, the rivalries that ensued due to that publicity, and the plethora of other amazing players, especially Bueckers. Nothing that happened in college b-ball over the past 3-4 years could have been predicted. So you can really only grade her on her interaction with players and ability to get good officiating standards. Ooops...
 
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This morning I watched excerpts from Engelbert’s press conference yesterday where she gave a series of what I would refer to as “non-answer, answers” to questions from ESPN’s Malika Andrews. Subsequently, the ESPN panel doing the first game between the Mercury & the Aces called out Engelbert for her non-answers to direct questions. Engelbert also interjected comments about how she is, “ a human being” and how attacks on her were hurtful to her daughters.

Give me a xxxxing break!!! Playing the sympathy card is ridiculous and only causes me to lose what little respect I might have had left for Engelbert.

A dynamic that many career women understand is that all too frequently, the support they would hope for from other career women is woefully lacking. Engelbert made it to the pinnacle of her profession as the CEO of Deloitte and now the Commissioner of the W. Somewhere along the way she became insensitive to the challenges of other professional women.
 
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oldude said:
This morning I watched excerpts from Engelbert’s press conference yesterday where she gave a series of what I would refer to as “non-answer, answers” to questions from ESPN’s Malika Andrews. Subsequently, the ESPN panel doing the first game between the Mercury & the Aces called out Engelbert for her non-answers to direct questions. Engelbert also interjected comments about how she is, “ a human being” and how attacks on her were hurtful to her daughters.

Give me an xxxxing break!!! Playing the sympathy card is ridiculous and only causes me to lose what little respect I might have had left for Engelbert.

A dynamic that many career women understand is that all too frequently, the support they would hope for from other career women is woefully lacking. Engelbert made it to the pinnacle of her profession as the CEO of Deloitte and now the Commissioner of the W. Somewhere along the way she became insensitive to the challenges of other professional women.
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I had the same thought on using her daughters (and brothers re: officiating). For the full press conference video and quick thoughts on the entire video, I posted it on the other thread.
 
oldude said:
This morning I watched excerpts from Engelbert’s press conference yesterday where she gave a series of what I would refer to as “non-answer, answers” to questions from ESPN’s Malika Andrews. Subsequently, the ESPN panel doing the first game between the Mercury & the Aces called out Engelbert for her non-answers to direct questions. Engelbert also interjected comments about how she is, “ a human being” and how attacks on her were hurtful to her daughters.

Give me a xxxxing break!!! Playing the sympathy card is ridiculous and only causes me to lose what little respect I might have had left for Engelbert.

A dynamic that many career women understand is that all too frequently, the support they would hope for from other career women is woefully lacking. Engelbert made it to the pinnacle of her profession as the CEO of Deloitte and now the Commissioner of the W. Somewhere along the way she became insensitive to the challenges of other professional women.
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AKA Adam Silver's administrative assistant. It's not easy doing these impromptu interviews while she's still waiting for him to tell her what she can and can't say.
 
BobbyJ said:
AKA Adam Silver's administrative assistant. It's not easy doing these impromptu interviews while she's still waiting for him to tell her what she can and can't say.
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Maybe so. But I don’t ever remember Adam Silver being so clumsy and inept in front of the press. Perhaps he needs to hire a new administrative assistant.
 
Hmm. I wonder if it could be Swin Cash time to be commissioner? She now has a lot of management experience, hall of fame, and Olympic gold medalist... I'm sure she could do a better job as commissioner and gain the respect of players...
 
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I just watched Engelbert's pitiful attempt to be empathetic with players, or to at least appear to be empathetic. If I were grading her in a communications class, she would have earned a “D”.

Why not a failing grade? Because she at least acknowledged that there are problems needing attention.
But then she went all corporate and palmed solution hunting off on a pair of committees. She's the friggin CEO! Solutions are her responsibility. If she wants committees to offer advice, very well. But Phee called for accountability, and the best Engelbert could do was a meally-mouthed “I care….” and tossed the problem into someone else's lap.

It is painful to listen to such eloquent, meaningless, pablum. But she does a fair job of EMOTING!!!



 
I’m not seeing much support from team owners for her Kathy shouldn’t there be at this point?
 
This is just getting crazy...

Sources: Napheesa Collier cancels meeting with Cathy Engelbert

I just don't see how Engelbert is still employed. Basically calls Phee a liar.

Engelbert on Friday vehemently denied saying that Caitlin Clark and other standouts "should be on their knees" in gratitude because of the platform the league has given them, as Collier claimed.

"I did not make those comments," Engelbert said at her annual news conference ahead of Game 1 of the WNBA Finals.

Phee took a chance in quoting Cathy directly in her presser - knowing that Cathy had probably 2 possible paths - deny and call Phee a liar, or acknowledge her comments and resign. She chose the former. I'm surprised the owners are standing by Engelbert at this point.

I believe Phee and I'm betting 100% of the players feel the same way. For them to sit across from Cathy and try to negotiate a contract with what has gone down is impossible to imagine.
 
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When the players condemn the league and the refs for engendering unnecessary violence in the league I see tremendous hypocrisy and worst over CC. But it is clear that Cathy is a brittle, incompetent Commish.
 
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Best part of this thread is that we haven't once worried about who is starting. Anyway, I'm rooting for Unrivaled to grow quickly, and outshine the W. I would love to know the number of players who would jump leagues if Unrivaled were to play in the summer as well...
 
Sifaka said:
We have a winnnnnuh!

Best typo of the month, lay—deeeees anna gennnullmin.


(I wonder if she was thinking of Steven A. Smith? 😇
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Take A Bow Thank You GIF by Iliza Shlesinger


A genuine oversight and reminder to always check if predictive typing has their own interpretation of what you're typing.

Nice touch with the Stephen A reference. 😂
 
www.newyorker.com

The Fight for the Future of Women’s Basketball

The W.N.B.A. star Napheesa Collier’s blistering critique of the league has brought it to a turning point.
www.newyorker.com www.newyorker.com

The New Yorker's take on Phee and Englebert. Unsurprisingly, it's sharp, incisive, and witty:

"Respect in men’s leagues, historically, has come in the form of ever-rising salaries. But, for many years, the W.N.B.A. had to operate differently, mainly because the money wasn’t there. But that gave the players an opportunity to figure out an alternative approach. At one point, Collier described leadership as “the human element.” She seems like proof of that herself."
 
There is yet another question hanging in the air, ready to explode in this battle between the players and the league following Pheesa’s initial broadside directed at the commissioner, Engelbert danced around whether or not she said what Pheesa said she said during their conversation at the allstar game.

Nothing is more damning relative to Engelbert’s leadership than the allegations of her being dismissive and disrespectful to CC and the rest of the players relative to compensation and officiating. Subsequently, Engelbert came out to clearly deny Pheesa’s comments.

We are now advised that Pheesa has cancelled a scheduled meeting with Engelbert. Given her most recent comments, the inevitable question that Engelbert will have to answer will be, “Are you calling Napheesa Collier a liar?” There is no good answer to that question. Either Pheesa is lying or Engelbert is lying, and unfortunately for Engelbert, Pheesa has earned the benefit of the doubt from the media, players and fans.
 
oldude said:
There is yet another question hanging in the air, ready to explode in this battle between the players and the league following Pheesa’s initial broadside directed at the commissioner, Engelbert danced around whether or not she said what Pheesa said she said during their conversation at the allstar game.

Nothing is more damning relative to Engelbert’s leadership than the allegations of her being dismissive and disrespectful to CC and the rest of the players relative to compensation and officiating. Subsequently, Engelbert came out to clearly deny Pheesa’s comments.

We are now advised that Pheesa has cancelled a scheduled meeting with Engelbert. Given her most recent comments, the inevitable question that Engelbert will have to answer will be, “Are you calling Napheesa Collier a liar?” There is no good answer to that question. Either Pheesa is lying or Engelbert is lying, and unfortunately for Engelbert, Pheesa has earned the benefit of the doubt from the media, players and fans.
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Napheesa Collier, Cathy Engelbert and a WNBA teetering on the brink - ESPN

It was Engelbert who called a meeting at Unrivaled and that she asked Napheesa and her husband (Unrivaled president) to attend.

Apparently, Napheesa also contemporaneously told other people.
  • Florida is a two-party consent to record state.
  • But most arguably, motive has not arisen that will weaken contemporaneous confidant witness testimony if it comes to that.
  • Engelbert and her bosses are then left to face, effectively, a vote of no confidence in the league’s representation in the CBA negotiations.
As to the state of CBA negotiations, Breanna said during the All-Star game that only two of Engelbert’s articles were somewhat acceptable. There are 30+? articles in the CBA.
 
oldude said:
There is yet another question hanging in the air, ready to explode in this battle between the players and the league following Pheesa’s initial broadside directed at the commissioner, Engelbert danced around whether or not she said what Pheesa said she said during their conversation at the allstar game.

Nothing is more damning relative to Engelbert’s leadership than the allegations of her being dismissive and disrespectful to CC and the rest of the players relative to compensation and officiating. Subsequently, Engelbert came out to clearly deny Pheesa’s comments.

We are now advised that Pheesa has cancelled a scheduled meeting with Engelbert. Given her most recent comments, the inevitable question that Engelbert will have to answer will be, “Are you calling Napheesa Collier a liar?” There is no good answer to that question. Either Pheesa is lying or Engelbert is lying, and unfortunately for Engelbert, Pheesa has earned the benefit of the doubt from the media, players and fans.
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I agree there is no good answer, but . . . given the evasive nature of much of Engelbert's recent "response" to Pheesa's statement, there are many (non-) answers that she can give. "We remember the conversation differently." "I don't think she's deliberately lying." And so on.

It reminds me of something Yogi Berra said to Joe Garagiola early on in his tenure as Yankees' manager. Joe asked him how working with George Steinbrenner was. Yogi replied, "It's okay. Me and George, we just agree different."
 
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