If I was running the W no player would be able to play in a competing league if salaries were at a higher level. Phee was right but where was she last year when CC was getting mugged every night? Secondly I understand why she vented and don't disagree with her points but airing what her and CE discussed about CC was not hers to air.
OT: Napheesa has her say on WNBA leadership
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PacoSwede
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let's assume engelbert sees her positions/actions/non-actions as representative of her bosses' desires.
they are the source of the players' problems. axing her wouldn't address the core issues. those with the power could take up the workers' concerns. but that would require giving up some power. oh horrors! owners in general are terrified by that idea.
a scapegoat, say the commissioners' scalp, could calm the upstarts. it's easier than giving in on core issues, like changing the terrible style of basketball being promoted by refs (mere underlings who are also pawns simply doing what the bosses want -- and more potential sacrificial lambs to insulate the true powers).
players and their sympathizers should focus on the real problem facing them.
power. held by the powerful. it's true for most of us, and too easy to accept rather than address.
they are the source of the players' problems. axing her wouldn't address the core issues. those with the power could take up the workers' concerns. but that would require giving up some power. oh horrors! owners in general are terrified by that idea.
a scapegoat, say the commissioners' scalp, could calm the upstarts. it's easier than giving in on core issues, like changing the terrible style of basketball being promoted by refs (mere underlings who are also pawns simply doing what the bosses want -- and more potential sacrificial lambs to insulate the true powers).
players and their sympathizers should focus on the real problem facing them.
power. held by the powerful. it's true for most of us, and too easy to accept rather than address.
If the players are truly united, and there's no reason to think that they aren't, they are in the driver's seat. You have a commissioner who is essentially a lame duck at this point, with no credibility, and an owners bloc that still doesn't get that when you take on angry women, it's not like any other adversary. I still believe that the WNBA is still not established enough to withstand a strong challenge from a rival league. Oh, wait, there is one, and Unrivaled could certainly expand if negotiations go south. I doubt highly that that's where the players want to go, but lack of money plus lack of respect equals a nonexistent workforce.
MilfordHusky
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WiseWillie
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Ryan's comments are very insightful. He's seen the game evolve up close for years on the sidelines. He's heard and is very aware of the issues. His comment that as a first step an acknowledgment by the W that there are problems would certainly help. The next step imo would be to define them and for a meeting with player representatives to discuss potential solutions in an open format. Good luck with that.
Guess we need to stay tuned because to use the common tennis idiom, the ball is now in the W's court.
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He got it right! Start with mandating freedom of movement and then things will ripple from there.
I'll say it again, every team knows if they are trailing at the beginning of the 4th, they can turn it into a wrestling match and probably win.....
I'll say it again, every team knows if they are trailing at the beginning of the 4th, they can turn it into a wrestling match and probably win.....
oldude
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An easy start is for the WNBA to adopt the prohibition on hand checking that has been in place in the NBA since the 2004-05 season. The WNBA’s rules on hand checking are watered down at best, permitting a far greater level of physically restrictive defense then in the men’s game.
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Not sure what she could say that would have much relevance. The Aces are certainly one of, if not the worst offenders in terms of waaay too physical play. They also not surprisingly, seem to be among the least penalized for obvious, egregious fouls. I say not surprisingly at least partially because of their obvious preferential treatment not only by the refs but by the league itself, which has allowed a $100,000 stipend to be paid to each Ace’s player from the LV chamber of Commerce for at least the last two seasons. If ever there were a more obvious breaking of the rule against teams supplying extra benefits over and above the salary cap, I’m sure I’ve never heard of it.
I suppose my bias is showing here but I have rarely been more disappointed over the result of an award vote than the one that (in my view) took the MVP vote away from Phee and instead gave it to Wilson. I will admit that the vote should have been very close, and even that Wilson might actually have won. However, imo, the tally should at the very least have been close. Just a shame (though there is no denying her dominance in the game) that the best player in the league should be so unlikeable.
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What are the chances (and legalities) that in the event of a lockout/walkout) by the W, that Unrivaled could switch to 5x5 for next season? Could the W, or more likely the NBA stop them from doing that? Could/Would that, if successful, result in the death of the W? I suppose much would depend on financial backing but Unrivaled did not seem to have much trouble raising money last year for what were very high salaries compared to what the W was paying at the time.
I don't see how they could stop it. They have no ownership or management position. Can McDonalds tell Burger King to stop selling Whoppers? Competition is just that, two rivals with similar products battling for the same customers. It's what free enterprise is all about. It's food, cars, tv networks, and so on. Customers make their choice and pay their money to buy, and anything prohibiting them from being able to do so is restraint of trade. Again, I doubt Unrivaled will go that route as their intent all along was never to compete with the WNBA, but to complement it. Then again, things change....
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Sorry, my vote for most egregious physicality goes to the Mercury.
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nwhoopfan
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Well for a decade it was Connecticut, and now AT goes to the Mercury and it seemed to follow her. That's probably ground zero with correcting the officiating in the WNBA--start calling all the obvious fouls on AT.
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First, Collier's comments didn't only touch on physicality, but on how the commissioner is being dismissive of the WNBPA's concern. That affects everyone, regardless who the player is. Second, Wilson is affected by the physicality just as much as everyone else. She gets her fair share of being held, as Peck showed during the pre-game coverage before Game 4.
It's unfortunate your bias won't let you see beyond the fact that Wilson willingly supported Collier publicly to the media. She could have given some waffling statement when asked, like some sports stars do to "stay out of it", or posted a two sentence tweet which most would forget. Wilson's support carries weight and her words being on the record continues to put the onus on the commissioner.
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Yes, they do. The players you mention were playing college basketball when they got those endorsements. If you're not playing - IE the WNBA doesn't exist - you're not getting endorsements, either. Their alternative would be playing overseas and with nobody in the markets for the ads, there are no endorsements.
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And the NBA won't allow a rival league because they're subsidizing the WNBA.
I honestly fail to understand how people think cancelling an entire season in a league that cannot turn a profit isn't the END of that league.
MLB is infinitely more popular than the WNBA and it took YEARS for them to recover from cancelling the end of the season in 1994.
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Profits that they're not making, you mean.
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Yet. Businesses are seeing the WNBA differently and if they didn't see the potential, the league wouldn't have earned a $1.1B media deal. Not to mention, team valuations, like the Liberty's, have jumped significantly recently. Companies wouldn't be investing if they didn't see the potential.
Sifaka
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The teams are privately owned and do not release financial statements, audited or otherwise. Nobody on this board knows whether any given WNBA team has earned a profit. Asset valuations have increased dramatically. Hence owners can cash out at a substantial profit should they choose to, or maintain their equity positions if they foresee an attractive profit stream, further equity appreciation, or both.
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Glad someone mentioned it, rather than having to refer to SVP's comments. "Team valuations" are nice, but they do not pay player salaries, nor do they help the league make a profit.
I absolutely think women's basketball has the potential to be profitable, but the model by which the WNBA operates isn't it. I don't think you can honestly have multiple entities competing for the same dollars and eyeballs. Bring Unrivaled, etc. under the WNBA umbrella, expand the league AND the season and stop being the stepchild of the NBA like some kind of junior league, and maybe the profits flow.
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Oh, please. If they could turn a profit, the NBA would not still be subsidizing them. Cashing out by selling the team is not "profit"
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The NBA, founded in 1949, allegedly turned a consistent profit in the mid- to late-80s, during David Stearn’s tenure and the playing days of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Michael Jordan.
In many ways, the script for continuing financial success has been known (star power, media deals and acceptable salary cap systems). And the lessons of drawn out intransigence (lockouts). The NBA owners of the WNBA and WNBA players know this script and lessons.
Whether what’s good for the geese is also good &1 for the gander remains to be seen.
&1 I am aware that ownership in the WNBA is a little bit different (with “league wide revenue sharing”).
oldude
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Understanding NBA ownership and profitability is akin to solving a Rubik’s Cube. A general breakdown of ownership is: NBA (42%), Individual owners (42%), private investors (16%). There are lots of tax related issues and benefits of reporting losses, not unlike producing a blockbuster motion picture that can go through several different releases (big screen, cable, broadcast tv) before eventually showing a profit, several years after release.
The numbers bandied about for several years are that the W loses $20-$40 million per year. Well is it $20 million or $40 million and why the lack of specificity? The investors and businesses that are jumping at the opportunity to invest are not generally interested in throwing good money after bad. They see a significant opportunity to make money.
The recent growth in attendance, tv and advertising revenue, new franchises and team valuations all point to positive growth for the W. Like it or not, the owners and the leadership of the W will need to consider the concerns of the players and compensate them commensurate with the growth of revenue in the league.
The numbers bandied about for several years are that the W loses $20-$40 million per year. Well is it $20 million or $40 million and why the lack of specificity? The investors and businesses that are jumping at the opportunity to invest are not generally interested in throwing good money after bad. They see a significant opportunity to make money.
The recent growth in attendance, tv and advertising revenue, new franchises and team valuations all point to positive growth for the W. Like it or not, the owners and the leadership of the W will need to consider the concerns of the players and compensate them commensurate with the growth of revenue in the league.
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There are pieces of all sides to these arguments that can be true. I have posted for years regarding the poor refereeing but in all sports, as younger, better players came in, they got the "treatment:" (i.e. Michael Jordan best example). Is this a management issue or an owner issue since they effectively "manage" the league? In the NBA, during the playoffs, it often looks like a WWE event. Seems to appeal to the TV audience and therefore owners don't object. Is this a problem or a strategy?
Nice soundbite regarding players deserving more money but it ignored the new contract that provides higher salaries. Rarely is there a fix that solves all issues overnight. Phee's comments noted a major issue-only a few players are "stars" and draw fans. Few stars=less fans=less money. Just relying on Caitlin, Paige, etc. is not enough. If she has any facts that indicate the owners are taking an unfair % of revenues, she or others should state it. Most of these owners have taken a significant financial risk and have been losing money for years. Phee is one of the few players that get in front of the media but can the players do more to increase demand?
Nice soundbite regarding players deserving more money but it ignored the new contract that provides higher salaries. Rarely is there a fix that solves all issues overnight. Phee's comments noted a major issue-only a few players are "stars" and draw fans. Few stars=less fans=less money. Just relying on Caitlin, Paige, etc. is not enough. If she has any facts that indicate the owners are taking an unfair % of revenues, she or others should state it. Most of these owners have taken a significant financial risk and have been losing money for years. Phee is one of the few players that get in front of the media but can the players do more to increase demand?
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Agree regarding valuations not paying salaries, however failing to note how businesses are viewing the WNBA today doesn't provide the proper context, which I didn't think is fair.
As to how to meld the different leagues together to avoid competition, I don't know what could work. The WNBA opted not to pursue an ownership stake when Unrivaled made the offer. From my view this could have made your suggestion of bringing them under one umbrella possible.
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And so, this reflects a huge problem when negotiating a CBA if the league/teams don't open their books for full transparency.
oldude
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As I intimated in my earlier post, the financials of ownership in the W are complicated at best and more likely cryptic and thoroughly confusing. The W is run like a venture capital company with multilayered ownership. That’s probably why they hired an accountant with 33 years at Deloitte as commissioner…..🧐
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Sifaka
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Your naivety in financial matters is cause for great mirth.
Imagine you bought 100 shares of NYSE traded stock Wombat Excelsior at $7.00/share. Five years later you sold it for $37/share. $3,000 is the difference between the purchase and sales price.
Your friendly IRS calls that sum profit. Your tax accountant calls that profit. You insist that it is not profit.
Your friend Henry bought a WNBA ten some years ago for $5 million. He sold it last week for $205 million. The difference between purchase and sales equity ownership prices = $200 million. The IRS taxes that amount as profit. Henry's tax accountant calls it profit. You insist, with equal measures of vehemence and ignorance, that it is not profit.
Ignorance is bliss.
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EricSD
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I'm not sure why some people insist the WNBA is not profitable for the owners. If that were the case, cities/investors would not be falling over themselves to put bids forward to try to get a franchise. These teams have already committed to join:
- Golden State Valkyries: Began play in 2025.
- Toronto Tempo: Scheduled to start play in 2026.
- Portland Fire: Set to join the league in 2026.
- Cleveland: Will begin play in 2028.
- Detroit: Expected to join the WNBA in 2029.
- Philadelphia: Scheduled to tip off in 2030.
- Nashville, Tennessee: A Nashville group, backed by former WNBA player Candace Parker, NFL Hall of Fame quarterback Peyton Manning and Nashville Predators owner Bill Haslam. It wants to name the team the Nashville Summitt in honor of late University of Tennessee women's basketball coach Pat Summitt.
- Houston: Houston Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta is leading the bid for of the league's original cities. "It's time to bring the WNBA back to Houston," Fertitta told the Houston Chronicle in January. Fertitta has submitted a formal bid.
- Milwaukee: The Bucks' ownership group had expressed interest in putting in a bid for an expansion WNBA team in October 2024 but did not submit an official bid before the deadline for the 16th team.
- Kansas City: Patrick Mahomes is part of an ownership group that has expressed interest in recruiting an expansion team to Kansas City. “We want to get basketball to Kansas City in general, and then WNBA and the success that they’ve had these last few seasons, it’s kind of a no-brainer,” Mahomes said in November 2024.
- St. Louis: Boston Celtics star Jayson Tatum is reportedly part of an ownership group trying to lure the WNBA to Tatum's hometown.
- Austin, Texas: A group backed by Kevin Durant was considering a bid for a WNBA franchise last year, according to a Sports Business Journal report.
For businesses, non-cash expenses can be significant. The most common types include:
- Depreciation:This deduction accounts for the wear and tear or obsolescence of tangible assets, such as vehicles, equipment, and buildings.
- Bonus depreciation: For 2025, businesses can deduct 40% of the cost of eligible assets in the first year they are put into service. This is scheduled to phase out completely in 2027.
- Section 179 deduction: This allows businesses to expense the full purchase price of qualifying equipment or software up to a certain limit in the year of purchase.
- Amortization: This is the equivalent of depreciation for intangible assets, such as patents, copyrights, trademarks, and goodwill. These costs are typically deducted over a 15-year period.
- Depletion: This applies to the use of natural resources, such as timber, oil, and minerals, as they are extracted from the earth.
- Charitable contributions: Businesses can donate inventory or other non-cash assets to a qualified charity and potentially deduct the fair market value of the property.
- Bad debt expense: Under the accrual method of accounting, companies can recognize the expense for customer debts they believe will not be paid.
- Stock-based compensation: The cost of stock options or other equity given to employees is a non-cash expense that can be deducted.
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