OT: Michigan State OTL piece

[Paesano]

Its hard to believe a program could top what happened at Penn St. But somehow MSU has managed to do just That.

Sadly, they won't be punished due to PSU's legal successes. Why is every other school legally successful? We lost every battle with the NCAA as well as the schools that ruined the Big East. UNC scares the NCAA away from punishing them for massive and blatant academic fraud. PSU beat them into a non-punishment for child molestation. MSU will get away with massive and blatant sexual abuse. But we couldn't win a case on APR where the NCAA got away with stuff that the federal government couldn't get away with.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I hope every in-conference student section MSU encounters from here on out -at least until Izzo is gone- does a SHAME... SHAME... SHAME... chant as the players/team are introduced

Make it happen UMD

 

[Deadrody]

The problem is how cryptic she was. And, frankly, Meghan has her own issues. That doesn't mean she should be ignored. It just means I am skeptical in this case. And, in general, people need to be careful not to turn this movement into a Salem witch trial scenario.

THIS times 100.

Let me preface this by saying that anyone that commits an assault should face the full consequences of their actions. PERIOD. In no way shape or form can anything I'll say be construed to mean I think people should get away with rape or assault. Nothing could be further from the truth.

That said, I know people get a thrill by throwing stones at others, especially rivals, but the fact of the matter is, rape and assault should be adjudicated through the civic justice system and NOT by any university. They've proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt that they, as a university will screw it up in every way possible, ignoring actual victims of assault and ruining the lives of men falsely accused. Universities do not have the people, properly trained, nor the processes that ensure people's constitutional rights are upheld, to deal with anything beyond petty theft. Assault cases absolutely need to go through the police and the state and local district attorneys offices. There is no counter argument. More people will end up with their rights violated by assuming a university is equipped to properly deal with these cases.

Now, that doesn't end the problem because the fact is, assault and rape are difficult cases to prove. Contrary to what intlzncster said above, decisions that take into account the ability of a victim to stand up to the scrutiny of a court case are NOT "bogus". The fact of the matter is, all the experience and publicity of the last 5+ years of the idiotic "dear colleague" era in college assault cases has actually made things worse. No longer is it a matter for the police, where an assault accusation needs to have documented evidence from a timely (like same day) report, but we can just get a guy kicked out of school on simple "she said" testimony. First of all, that's not the "justice" you should be seeking. Assaults need to be reported to the police and evidence collected. Outside of that, there literally is almost nothing the justice system can do for you. And that needs to be communicated ad naseum, until people get it.

There is a lot more to say on the topic, but unfortunately, beyond what is above, there isn't much point to arguing over it. Suffice to say that if you're read about the Aziz Ansari matter, it may be a taudry affair - assuming the one sided account is actually true - it was definitively NOT assault. One of the few problems with the #MeToo movement is there is no way to validate one person's years later account. Until you have multiple people corroborating bad behavior, ala Harvey Weinstein, you have one person's word that could destroy a person's life, and frankly, that's almost as bad.

 

[Rocktheworld]

And say their "lives are permanently damaged". That is incredibly stupid to say. I can't believe he would say such a thing like that. They can recover and overcome way more easily if he shuts the Butch up.

Like everything besides CFB historical facts that your autistic self is obsessed with, you talk out your ass demonstrating you don’t know the first thing about this issue.

Speaking of shut the Butch up

 

[CL82]

This is the just the beginning. Women are finally feeling like speaking out and demanding action is a good thing to do and that it is being supported by the larger population. And that is a good thing.

I agree. Though a few times I've cringed about #metoo posts (a 90 year president sexually assaulted me by goosing me), it has gone a long way to empowering women to talk about some pretty horrific subject matter. It has been a paradigm shift in the lifting the perceived "shame" component by victimized women, which in turn will go a long way to eliminating predatory behavior by holding people accountable. I had no idea that this stuff was as prevalent as it is. That's a scary thing particularly if you are married or have daughters.

 

[FartMan69]

College sports need to be killed with fire. Greed, Corruption and toxic environments are now the norm for glorified minor leagues. Awful.

 

[intlzncster]

That said, I know people get a thrill by throwing stones at others, especially rivals, but the fact of the matter is, rape and assault should be adjudicated through the civic justice system and NOT by any university. They've proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt that they, as a university will screw it up in every way possible, ignoring actual victims of assault and ruining the lives of men falsely accused. Universities do not have the people, properly trained, nor the processes that ensure people's constitutional rights are upheld, to deal with anything beyond petty theft. Assault cases absolutely need to go through the police and the state and local district attorneys offices. There is no counter argument. More people will end up with their rights violated by assuming a university is equipped to properly deal with these cases.

Now, that doesn't end the problem because the fact is, assault and rape are difficult cases to prove. Contrary to what intlzncster said above, decisions that take into account the ability of a victim to stand up to the scrutiny of a court case are NOT "bogus". The fact of the matter is, all the experience and publicity of the last 5+ years of the idiotic "dear colleague" era in college assault cases has actually made things worse. No longer is it a matter for the police, where an assault accusation needs to have documented evidence from a timely (like same day) report, but we can just get a guy kicked out of school on simple "she said" testimony. First of all, that's not the "justice" you should be seeking. Assaults need to be reported to the police and evidence collected. Outside of that, there literally is almost nothing the justice system can do for you. And that needs to be communicated ad naseum, until people get it.

There is a lot more to say on the topic, but unfortunately, beyond what is above, there isn't much point to arguing over it. Suffice to say that if you're read about the Aziz Ansari matter, it may be a taudry affair - assuming the one sided account is actually true - it was definitively NOT assault. One of the few problems with the #MeToo movement is there is no way to validate one person's years later account. Until you have multiple people corroborating bad behavior, ala Harvey Weinstein, you have one person's word that could destroy a person's life, and frankly, that's almost as bad.

I'm firmly entrenched on the side who is wary of the 'Salemization' in these sorts of things. Witch hunts, madness of the crowds, politicization for self serving purposes, etc etc. Especially because the public will ruin the reputation of someone just to give credence to a social justice narrative they want to push. Scorched earth so to speak. See Duke Lax case, UVA fraternity case, et al.

In response to some of your points with regards to the case at hand:

• Carolyn Schaner and a friend reported the assault to local police the next day.
• Adrien Payne subsequently all but admitted to the unwanted assault on camera. Even apologized to the girl.
• Detectives didn't even talk to Appling. I'll add a follow on that Appling is currently doing time for a weapons charge.
• The way it was characterized by the article is that Martinez told Schaner that Schaner did not appear strong enough mentally to stand up to questioning. Cannot the girl and her family judge for herself her mental capacity for such things? How is telling the girl to 'just let it go' protecting her in the eyes of the law?
• And now, Debra Martinez works for MSU as Senior investigator in the Office of Institutional Equity. Her profile starts out: "helps builds community partnerships to combat gender-based violence. As former chief of the Ingham County Prosecutor’s Special Victim Unit, attorney Debra Martinez saw firsthand how much support students need following a sexual assault."

None of that raises an eyebrow for you? To me, it's surreal.

 

[intlzncster]

The problem is how cryptic she was. And, frankly, Meghan has her own issues. That doesn't mean she should be ignored. It just means I am skeptical in this case. And, in general, people need to be careful not to turn this movement into a Salem witch trial scenario.

Probably not the place to ask, but what are those? I missed all this.

 

[champs99and04]

Call me naive if you want - I don't think there are as many bad people out there as these stories suggest. There are a lot of things that need to be considered. Our language is toxic. All of it. The language needs to be cleansed and re-learned collectively. That doesn't happen when Joe Anonymous on the Boneyard is now sure that Tom Izzo is a dirt bag because eight years ago he didn't report a third hand account of an accusation that he had no earthly idea what to do about. Try to have some perspective. Too often we convert ambiguous moral dilemmas into transparent acts of malice through hindsight. What happens if Travis Walton turned out to have done nothing wrong? Then he's essentially calling a four year captain a liar. Does that mean he did the right thing? Of course not. Walton likely should have been placed on leave until the situation could be resolved. But that's the point. The decision shouldn't be in the hands of the coach and too often it is. Izzo certainly was not the first person the victim turned to. There needs to be a protocol in place regarding how these accusations should be handled and it needs to be universalized throughout college sports. That would be a start. In the meantime, spare me the theatrics about Izzo being able to face his daughter's and all that other self-serving nonsense that pollutes the search for justice.

Maybe everybody else looks at this story as an gender issue. You should look at it that way, but not only that way. There's also a racial component and a class component that is just as pertinent. Who are we talking about? Travis Walton? Keith Appling? You think they've had it easy in their lives? No. Let them accuse a white women of something and we'll see where it takes us (I don't know the race of the alleged victims, so I don't want to be presumptuous - the point is that the paradigm shifts depending on where you're looking from).

We talk about things like gender equality and the #MeToo movement because they are really freaking important. Unfortunately, there are a lot of movements out there, and all of them can ultimately be filed under the heading of language. That's where we are failing.

 

[BUConn10]

Nothing significant will come of this and no one that matters is losing a job. Too much winning at stake for anyone to care.

So about this controversy, time for a bump?

MSU football coach got like a 6 year extension the other day. I guess the busy news cycle has helped MSU quite a bit. Currently MSU fans online are spinning this into an ESPN journalistic lack of integrity thing because I guess they released some wrongly accused walk ons name, a classic defense.

 

[Rocktheworld]

So about this controversy, time for a bump?

MSU football coach got like a 6 year extension the other day. I guess the busy news cycle has helped MSU quite a bit. Currently MSU fans online are spinning this into an ESPN journalistic lack of integrity thing because I guess they released some wrongly accused walk ons name, a classic defense.

Apparently he has a 6-year rolling extension that is extended one year every year. So if he wasn’t extended this year, he’d be down to 5 years left on his contract.

 

[Pudge]

Sparty is a horrible place filled with horrible people. I'm sure anyone who made it to the 2009 Final Four can vouch for that.

One day around Michigan State fans sour'd you forever. That's OK. I have a lifetime of antipathy from riding the train to MSG for the BE tourney with Cuse fans from Albany.

 

[Hi-Low]

MSU is a cesspool..........FB coach is a complete disgrace & Izzo is a coward.........why anyone would want want to play for these bum programs anymore is beyond me. The thing I'm mostly looking forward to in the Tourney is MSU getting knocked out early hopefully.