May 2024 WNBA Thread, part II

[nwhoopfan]

Aces got almost nothing from the bench. I thought they upgraded, but this seems familiar.

 

[GoChips20]

Aces got almost nothing from the bench. I thought they upgraded, but this seems familiar.

They couldn’t have known it at the time but the Parker signing and Hamby trade was the wrong move in hindsight. Hamby is tearing it up for LA right now.

Not directly related to the bench discussion but would have been a major improvement to their depth.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Aces got almost nothing from the bench. I thought they upgraded, but this seems familiar.

I was confused by the narrative around the Aces upgrading their bench this off season. Gustafson was one of the worst players on a very bad Mercury team last year. As a Mercury fan I rejoiced as she left. Who else did they add? Martin?

 

[nwhoopfan]

I was confused by the narrative around the Aces upgrading their bench this off season. Gustafson was one of the worst players on a very bad Mercury team last year. As a Mercury fan I rejoiced as she left. Who else did they add? Martin?

Yeah but Gustafson is replacing Cayla George who they got nothing from. They should've kept Plaisance from 2 years ago. And anyone replacing Riquna is a plus, since she didn't play and was a distraction.

Last year Gustafson averaged 8 ppg with efficient shooting numbers, I'd take that in a heartbeat. She's doing less for the Aces so far.

 

[nwhoopfan]

They couldn’t have known it at the time but the Parker signing and Hamby trade was the wrong move in hindsight. Hamby is tearing it up for LA right now.

Absolutely. Half a season was definitely not worth it.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Yeah but Gustafson is replacing Cayla George who they got nothing from. They should've kept Plaisance from 2 years ago. And anyone replacing Riquna is a plus, since she didn't play and was a distraction.

Last year Gustafson averaged 8 ppg with efficient shooting numbers, I'd take that in a heartbeat. She's doing less for the Aces so far.

8ppg on the worst team in the league last season. Cayla George would have given the Mercury more than that last year with the opportunities Meg was given playing next to Griner. Plus she’s always injured. We’ll see at the end of the year but I personally didn’t think that was much of an upgrade if an upgrade at all.

 

[Geew1992]

Some of y’all need to eat some crow

 

[willtalk]

People underestimate Chelseas contributions on defense. She plays excellent off the ball defense and is always helping on other players, closing passing lanes etc. She also plays good on ball defense but her off the ball defense is not as obvious and is not usually recognized by fans.

 

[oldhusky]

I was confused by the narrative around the Aces upgrading their bench this off season. Gustafson was one of the worst players on a very bad Mercury team last year. As a Mercury fan I rejoiced as she left. Who else did they add? Martin?

Like several teams, the Aces have prioritized the cap to spend on the players in the rotation, and a short one at that. With four highly paid stars, trying to get another three or so over the minimum, but not by too much, and then fill out the rest with minimums. Last year and this one they actually had a chance for 5 stars, because Parker was willing to take way less than market value which then allowed them to get Stokes and Clark above the minimum, but still reasonable, because like Parker, they were taking less than market value to chase a ring.

I think the grand plan included Parker in the starting lineup both years, and a good first three off the bench in Stokes as the big, Clark for the wing, and Riquanna Williams as the guard. The depth beyond those 8 was shaky, but on paper it was a great roster to go for the championship, figuring if you have major injuries you probably won't make it anyway. The surprise is that not getting anything out of Riquanna, and Parker beyond mid-year that they could still pull it off.

Assuming Parker had returned I think Gustafson would have been a nice 4th big, mostly as Parker's backup. Remember after Parker's injury last year Clark had to play much of the season out of position at the 4. She also could have been more of an offensive option along with Stokes as a defensive one.

Regardless Parker's retirement changes a lot. The fifth starter has to be either a non-scorer defender like Stokes, or an undersized 4 in Clark, and Gustafson becomes the third big, whether she is the answer or not. That with missing your star PG for who knows how long means things are pretty different now.

It terms of the strategy I think it was pretty good. If you are a contender spend the money on your stars, save some for two or three above average bench players for more than the minimum, but not by a lot, and don't spend anything beyond the minimum on players after the first 8. One bench big, one wing and one guard for players 6,7, and 8, and then hope injuries don't ruin your plan.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Like several teams, the Aces have prioritized the cap to spend on the players in the rotation, and a short one at that. With four highly paid stars, trying to get another three or so over the minimum, but not by too much, and then fill out the rest with minimums. Last year and this one they actually had a chance for 5 stars, because Parker was willing to take way less than market value which then allowed them to get Stokes and Clark above the minimum, but still reasonable, because like Parker, they were taking less than market value to chase a ring.

I think the grand plan included Parker in the starting lineup both years, and a good first three off the bench in Stokes as the big, Clark for the wing, and Riquanna Williams as the guard. The depth beyond those 8 was shaky, but on paper it was a great roster to go for the championship, figuring if you have major injuries you probably won't make it anyway. The surprise is that not getting anything out of Riquanna, and Parker beyond mid-year that they could still pull it off.

Assuming Parker had returned I think Gustafson would have been a nice 4th big, mostly as Parker's backup. Remember after Parker's injury last year Clark had to play much of the season out of position at the 4. She also could have been more of an offensive option along with Stokes as a defensive one.

Regardless Parker's retirement changes a lot. The fifth starter has to be either a non-scorer defender like Stokes, or an undersized 4 in Clark, and Gustafson becomes the third big, whether she is the answer or not. That with missing your star PG for who knows how long means things are pretty different now.

It terms of the strategy I think it was pretty good. If you are a contender spend the money on your stars, save some for two or three above average bench players for more than the minimum, but not by a lot, and don't spend anything beyond the minimum on players after the first 8. One bench big, one wing and one guard for players 6,7, and 8, and then hope injuries don't ruin your plan.

I understand HOW it came to be I don’t understand why the perception from fans and media a month ago was they had an upgraded bench. George for Gustafson is at best an even swap and their bench was bad last season. They didn’t add any usable guards that I’m aware of. I believe they have a roster spot and Candace’s salary open still so maybe they are planning on making a mid season move.

The aces will be fine with Gray returns but having to play Jackie Young 40 minutes in all three games to start the season is a concerning until then.

 

[baggerbob]

I understand HOW it came to be I don’t understand why the perception from fans and media a month ago was they had an upgraded bench. George for Gustafson is at best an even swap and their bench was bad last season. They didn’t add any usable guards that I’m aware of. I believe they have a roster spot and Candace’s salary open still so maybe they are planning on making a mid season move.

The aces will be fine with Gray returns but having to play Jackie Young 40 minutes in all three games to start the season is a concerning until then.

They are going to have the same problem Seattle had in 2021 for the Olympics, Sue Stewie, and Loyd played a good deal in the Olympics.
Then Quinn played them a lot in the regular season, Stewie had played overseas.
Stewie got hurt , no championship.
You now have a longer regular season, and A'ja, Gray if healthy, will play a lot, Young because of defense might start and will play a lot. The only one who might get minimal minutes is Plum.

 

[nwhoopfan]

8ppg on the worst team in the league last season. Cayla George would have given the Mercury more than that last year with the opportunities Meg was given playing next to Griner.

How in the world is playing next to Griner such a grand opportunity that playing next to Wilson isn't? That makes no sense at all.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

How in the world is playing next to Griner such a grand opportunity that playing next to Wilson isn't? That makes no sense at all.

Well see the Aces were really good last year so George didn’t play. The Mercury were really terrible so had to play Meg a lot and she was usually left uncovered because of Griner’s presence and still only managed 8 points.

 

[azfan]

So glad that you're so prescient. I mean, you really called it.

Ikr. I do wonder on the next 10 visits to Las Vegas how many times would the Mercury be expected to score over 95?

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well see the Aces were really good last year so George didn’t play. The Mercury were really terrible so had to play Meg a lot and she was usually left uncovered because of Griner’s presence and still only managed 8 points.

And George wasn't uncovered due to Wilson's presence? That's a rhetorical question. Gustafson did play more minutes, but look at their FG%. George was AWFUL, while Gustafson was very efficient.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

And George wasn't uncovered due to Wilson's presence? That's a rhetorical question. Gustafson did play more minutes, but look at their FG%. George was AWFUL, while Gustafson was very efficient.

Did George play a ton of her very few minutes with Wilson or with Wilson on the bench? My point wasn’t shade at A’ja or commentary on BG. It was simply that an underwhelming to bad player on the worst team in the league isn’t necessarily an upgrade to the worst player on the best team. Kayla George mostly played with reserves vs Megan who got to play with starters where it’s slightly easier to score when others are being doubled.

I really didn’t like Gustafason her final year with the Mercury. Bad defense, so many dropped passes, general state of confusion overall. She’d take bad shots in the wrong moments and has the situational awareness of a squirrel. But if you think her presence is making the Aces a significantly better team enjoy her! I am just very happy to be rid of her on my team!

 

[GCKSFN4L]

I couldn't agree more @oldhusky . These past two seasons Vegas has attempted to upgrade the bench but fate seems to have had other plans.

Riquana ruined any depth last season and Candace's injury only exacerbated it. Then you add the cap space/roster spot lost with the Riquana situation the Aces was really working with a 10 player roster -150k for the whole season.

Considering Vegas core has no one on a rookie contract, I actually think they distributed the money really well this year. Unlike other teams they were able to secure a 12 woman roster.

But again Parker's retirement and Gray's injury puts Vegas in a bind yet again. Yet again Kiah is asked to be a starter and now Clark has to move up too. A bench of Gustafson, Stokes, Clark, Fair, Bell, Colson and Martin seems more reasonable when you're starting 5 originally consisted of future hall of famers All-Stars.

So based on the preseason outlook ,Vegas did indeed improve their bench. Parker retires, Gray's recovery is longer than expected and apparently Bell also has a leg injury as well and now the Aces appears to be more mortal with multiple setbacks all before the season starts.


Something to keep in mind is that the TC contracts were based on Parker's 100k salary being on the books. There's still potential of Vegas making use of that 100k salary with a late addition to roster.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Kayla George mostly played with reserves

What reserves? Once Parker was out, it was Clark and a little bit of Bell. That's it. I don't think Vegas had George, Clark and Bell all on the floor together very often.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

What reserves? Once Parker was out, it was Clark and a little bit of Bell. That's it. I don't think Vegas had George, Clark and Bell all on the floor together very often.

They played a lot fourth quarters together because a lot of aces games were over by quarter 3 last year. A’ja only averaged 33 minutes a game last season and I’d imagine George was in for most of those 7 minutes she was out.

 

[bbsamjj]

Like I said, it's the defense, not the offense.


Copper has 75 points in the last 2 games. Why did the Sky let her get away?

I kind of got the sense Copper asked to be traded, especially after Chicago whiffed on getting any of the big time free agents to come. It was pretty shocking though--Copper even appeared at T.Spoon's introductory press conference. But it's pretty well known that Chicago has some of worst facilities in the league (I believe their "practice court" is quite far from the arena), and Phoenix has made the investments to be competitive with best of the best in the league--Copper has mentioned that multiple times in her interviews.

Chicago did get pretty decent value for Copper: the #3 pick in the draft (which turned into Cardoso, though at time they made trade, could have been Paige or Brink), plus B. Turner, Onyenwere, and a ton of future picks. They decided to go into "rebuild" mode, which tbh, was smart: even if they kept Copper, they are still probably fighting for the #7, #8 spot in the playoffs.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

I kind of got the sense Copper asked to be traded, especially after Chicago whiffed on getting any of the big time free agents to come. It was pretty shocking though--Copper even appeared at T.Spoon's introductory press conference. But it's pretty well known that Chicago has some of worst facilities in the league (I believe their "practice court" is quite far from the arena), and Phoenix has made the investments to be competitive with best of the best in the league--Copper has mentioned that multiple times in her interviews.

Chicago did get pretty decent value for Copper: the #3 pick in the draft (which turned into Cardoso, though at time they made trade, could have been Paige or Brink), plus B. Turner, Onyenwere, and a ton of future picks. They decided to go into "rebuild" mode, which tbh, was smart: even if they kept Copper, they are still probably fighting for the #7, #8 spot in the playoffs.

They don’t have rights to their draft pick next year, Dallas does so if they miss the playoffs and Dallas does they don’t get a lottery pick. I feel like they might not have rights to their 2026 picks too but not sure about that.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I kind of got the sense Copper asked to be traded, especially after Chicago whiffed on getting any of the big time free agents to come. It was pretty shocking though--Copper even appeared at T.Spoon's introductory press conference. But it's pretty well known that Chicago has some of worst facilities in the league (I believe their "practice court" is quite far from the arena), and Phoenix has made the investments to be competitive with best of the best in the league--Copper has mentioned that multiple times in her interviews.

Chicago did get pretty decent value for Copper: the #3 pick in the draft (which turned into Cardoso, though at time they made trade, could have been Paige or Brink), plus B. Turner, Onyenwere, and a ton of future picks. They decided to go into "rebuild" mode, which tbh, was smart: even if they kept Copper, they are still probably fighting for the #7, #8 spot in the playoffs.

Thanks. I was oversimplifying. Copper came over originally as part of the deal when EDD wanted out, right? Lots of player movement is probably fairly complicated, and the true ramifications aren't necessarily evident until years down the road.

Anyway, I was totally impressed with Copper the year the Sky won the Championship, and she's off to a great start with Phoenix.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Diggins-Smith's outfit is straight out of The Matrix films.

Wallace starting instead of KLS today.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Gotta love Nneka. At 33 most players start to slow down at least a little bit. Nobody out hustles her on the court.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well Muhl's debut was inauspicious. She got scored on 3 times in a very short amount of time.