Lou's Journey towards Mt Rushmore

[j66kicker]

When the topic of UConn's Mount Rushmore is brought up, I agree with Oldude's assessment that 3 of the spots are permanently carved in stone, while the 4th spot remains in a constant state of flux. This could be a topic for discussion and debate the entire summer, every summer, and still not achieve a majority consensus or a satisfactory resolution come October.

This program has too many All-Americans, Olympic Gold medalist, and otherwise Great players that have come through, since Geno's arrival and made a name for themselves. Some would argue that Lobo and/or Bird should be there, many think It's impossible to have a 4th player's likeness permanently etched in that last spot, and everyone (or most) agree with it.

It's very easy to become a prisoner of the moment and think that a player on the current roster (any roster) should be a candidate for inclusion on the mount. Who knows, in 4 years, there may be some folks that will vigorously stump for Megan Walker to rightfully and boldly take that remaining spot!?!

Every Boneyarder has their favorite four. It's their opinion, and most will argue and support the soundness and credibility of that opinion to their grave. They'll give you chapter and verse on why their four should be on the mount if you'll listen. We all have our favorites, and our minds are made up!!!! Nobody is going to make us change our minds..nobody!!!

I think the best solution to this matter is for each of us to decide who is on our own personal Mount Rushmore, and understand that others may not agree or feel as we do, but none the less be satisfied in our own minds and comfortable that we got it right!!

I don't agree that the first 3 are permanently carved in stone (since, in fact they aren't, unlike the presidents in the real Mt. Rushmore). The fun of this discussion is having to limit it to a small, defined number. So what happens if we get 2 or 3 more transcendent superstars like DT, Maya & Stewie in the next 10 (or however many) years? Who doesn't make it, or who gets bumped? Don't say, "make more space on the mountain." that's a different conversation.

BTW, with DT and Maya we KNEW when they were freshmen that they would be on the mountain. And with Stewie we knew at least when she was a soph. KLS is a junior and we're just now debating it. Great as she is, Lou will have to settle for keeping the 4th seat warm with Sue & Rebecca while we wait for the next "chosen one."

 

[hoophuskee]

I am a bit surprised there is no real pushback to this idea.

I don't think you should expect a lot of pushback yet. Still a lot of time left. I, for one, hate the – really, really hate the Rushmore mention. In my view it has nothing to do with basketball. Nothing. But with that said this thread mentioned Lou and I think she can be up in the rarefied elite range if the next two years she does "more." Which I think she is capable.

Take a look at her frosh year – she got benched early playing only 4 minutes in the 1st half. DePaul was giving UCONN a bit of a hard time in the 2nd half. Take a look at the play-by-play and the box score in the 2nd half. Lou didn’t play much in the 2nd half either. But at over 8 minutes Geno pulled Chong for Lou (ddin't play 1 second in 2nd half until such time.) – a 7 pt game. About 20 seconds later DePaul cut it to 5. Stewart says in the postgame they needed the game to stabilize. I remember the game. Watch it. The team had one turnover in those 8+ minutes and they looked a bit shaky vs the press unless the ball was put in Lou’s hands. Lou scored 10 points, grabbed a rebound and had a steal in those 8+ minutes. Before those 8 minutes UCONN had 16 turnovers. Only 1 once they put Lou in. Anyone—watch that DePaul game last 8+ minutes when she comes in. It was a 5 point game. After Lou hits a 3 (her skip pass sort of set up her 3). She makes a skip pass to set up Nurse. She turned around the game. They also spoke around 7.30, minute-mark that she had an injury early her frosh year. She does things – plays in a way – that she just has “something” just the way we talk of special “instincts” skills Maya/DT / Bird have. Lou “has it.” She showed it. And her soph year . . .

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/stats/2015-2016/120215.html#GAME.PLY

Her soph year—how many of us Husky fans predicted the year UCONN had? The team had no great big or great pg (or DT sg.). There was something about the team, they meshed perfectly. We didn’t see it coming. Last year was a “rebuilding” year supposedly. They lost 1 game in Ovt. Lou was 1st team a/a as a soph. That equals a lot of players on the potential list. If she does something elite vs a few teams that threaten UCONN – and loses just 1 game in 4 years and is NPOY, how is Sue Bird ahead of her in any type of ranking? SO would that make her 5th in your view? (For the record I have MoJeff ahead of Sue.). Would that warrant "a real pushback" to put Lou at 4th if she did? I realize you have put Lobo there. But your point isn’t that Lobe was “better,” right? It’s just your personal decision that Lobo started it all among other factors. You make it sound like “you are shocked” Lou being mentioned. You wouldn't have a huge pushback if Lou accomplished what I said, would you?

I’d just like to add one more thing about Lou. The poster bags27 and I have agreed since early on that Lou was soft. However our “difference” - really nothing important – bags seemed mildly frustrated (correct me if I’m wrong bags) that Lou was so soft – but for me I would giggle a bit. When I played – I felt it was harder for me to stop the great scorer that can shoot lights-out vs the super athlete. So in my bias - Lou’s rebounding didn’t mean as much to me. Our team had "bigs" that could outrebound "wings." But right now you don’t read bags as much mentioning her rebounding. He or she does, but not near as much imo. For me, I do appreciate good rebounders to an extent. I’m wondering if bags and I are starting to see Lou turn the corner-- AND MAYBE YOU TOO? Lately I’ve seen her physically snatch rebounds. I mean “snatch.” She seems to be “enjoying” inside play quite a bit more while before it seemed she was more “adverse” to even going inside. Her rebounding number have jumped up. ***NOW – if she adds physicality in which she can get the ball using her physicality and scoring in tough games.—GETS a NPOY and loses just 1 game in her career as a 3-time 1st team all-American. THAT IS WORTHY of being at least in the mention in which you shouldn’t be surprised (as it seems you are right now) that she be mentioned ahead of Lobo, is it?***

 

[boontonbomber]

As Rushmore was designed, agreed upon and started before FDRs presidency, you lost me on your point as he couldn’t have been considered. But if you want to say something like “a new Mt Rushmore for Presidents” put it as a OT thread and stop being pedantic. As our colleague started this as a “interesting discussion perspective”, the thread was limited to Four per Rushmore so we went with it. If you want to parse to your illogic trying to use positions (the NBA doesn’t do that when siscussing) feel free to start a new thread an not play in our Reindeer games....

Excuse my being captious, but not a new Rushmore, just not Rushmore as a symbol of the 4 best of anything. And the NBA is to be our guide as to how to carry out discussion of such weighty topics as "best player"? As one former tennis great said, " you can't be serious"!

 

[HumblePie]

Yes, Lou is one fine player, but...
Geno's comment about low scoring when Lou was on the bench, was amended right after with, "Lou and Gabby".
My point is that this is clearly an ensemble team, without a standout like the first 3 on the Mount.
There is no resemblance to, e.g, DT holding up the rest of the crew in '04.
Kia's a 1st rate defender and possesses the best 3 pt % in America.
Gabby is an other-worldly athlete who's the disruptive Lawrence Taylor of wcbb.
Pheesa's a super finisher; Z & CD are contributing nicely in an above average fashion.
I just don't see the singling out of Katie Lou as an accurate perception.

Here's the thing you're missing, although you should have clearly seen it. Neither Diana, Maya or Stewie played with potentially three (3) other deserving All-Americans as well as a point guard that will most likely be one next season. Lou isn't usually needed to do the things the way the Rushmore three were counted on for. Yet she still stands out game after game. So, before her UConn career ends she may very well be the best of them all.

 

[HumblePie]

@oldude - Absolutely a fantastic article!

 

[j66kicker]

***NOW – if she adds physicality in which she can get the ball using her physicality and scoring in tough games.—GETS a NPOY and loses just 1 game in her career as a 3-time 1st team all-American. THAT IS WORTHY of being at least in the mention in which you shouldn’t be surprised (as it seems you are right now) that she be mentioned ahead of Lobo, is it?***

"If" is the operative word. We're a ways from seeing all those things actually happen. I hope they do, but even then she might be ahead of Lobo, but still not necessarily ahead of Sue.

 

[hoophuskee]

"If" is the operative word. We're a ways from seeing all those things actually happen. I hope they do, but even then she might be ahead of Lobo, but still not necessarily ahead of Sue.

Yes - you're right "IF." But it is not "out of the question" that she can possibly do it. Which si what the other poster implied by stating he or she was surpised that there wasn't a lot of pushback. My point is-- there shouldn't be. There still is a lot of time. That's why I brought up my past discussions with bags27. IMO I'm seeing Lou rebound much more aggressive. It's no accident that her rebound numbers are up, right? She's an elite scorer and a terrific passer for a wing.

 

[Undercovervol]

There wouldn’t be a Mt Rushmore if it weren’t for Rebecca Lobo...I’m very confused as to how she could be left off this list, unless we’re simply debating best players without regard to their impact on the program. She led the team to first championship, won the wade trophy, and set the stage for all players who followed her.

 

[LouS]

One of the enjoyable threads on the BY that pops up from time to time is to name the 4 UConn greats that comprise UConn’s Mt Rushmore of WBB. While 3 of the 4 are literally written in stone (DT, Maya, Stewie), the 4th member of that esteemed group is subject to considerable debate given all the many great WBB players that have played at UConn. While I would never be so presumptuous as to suggest that Lou, a little over 2 years into her career at UConn, should be considered as the 4th member of UConn’s Mt Rushmore, what I will say is that in 2+ seasons Lou’s development as a basketball player has been tremendous, particularly when you consider that she started out as the #1 recruit in the nation.

It’s been pointed out by countless analysts that Lou came to Storrs as a great shooter. I think that sells Lou a little short. She was also a very good passer with a keen sense of court awareness when she first arrived at Storrs. But from that point on she has developed into a complete basketball player. She is clearly a great scorer now. She could always shoot, but now she can take the ball to the basket and she has developed an array of post-up moves. Unlike many great scorers who have tunnel vision much of the time, Lou is always aware of where her teammates are on the floor, and she is one of the best passers in WBB, as demonstrated by her 9 assists in the game vs ECU yesterday.

This season, Lou has taken yet another step in the process on the defensive end. While Lou is not the quickest defender, once again her court awareness, anticipation and a growing tenacity on defense has made her a very good defender. Among her many talents, Lou probably leads the Huskies in taking charges. She has also become a much better rebounder at both ends of the court, anticipating misses and fighting for position underneath. Yes! It’s a fact. UConn has the rebounding Samuelson.

Then there are the intangibles. Lou is one of the smartest basketball players I’ve seen. Her movement on the court without the ball is a thing of beauty. Try to overplay her at the arc and she’ll make a hard cut behind a defender to the basket. Unlike some 3-pt shooters, Lou doesn’t have a preferred spot on the floor. She’ll keep moving until she finds the gap in an opponent’s perimeter defense and knock down the shot from wherever that may be.

Lou’s toughness has been something of a revelation. She’s played when she was sick, and she’s played when she was hurt. The book on defending Lou is to get physical with her. She has taken as much physical punishment as just about any player in WBB in the past two seasons, and she never backs down. On a team full of highly motivated young ladies, Lou has clearly become one of the leaders on this team.

The one thing I enjoy most about Lou is the absolute joy she displays while playing the game she loves. Whether she’s letting out a primal scream after scoring while being fouled, cheering on a teammate or flashing her infectious smile, Lou reminds us all of something too easily forgotten, that sports should be fun.

The most compelling argument for how good a basketball player Lou has become is apparent in the way Geno talks about her. The little digs about her defense and rebounding are gone. When asked yesterday what happened to UConn’s offense during a less than stellar second qtr vs ECU, Geno simply responded, “Lou wasn’t in the game.” Geno treats Lou with a level of respect typically reserved for a senior. If Lou stays healthy (hate to even bring that up), continues to get even better, makes a couple more AA teams and helps the Huskies raise two more banners at Gampel she will undoubtedly place herself in the discussion for that coveted 4th spot in the rarified air at UConn WBB’s Mt Rushmore.

I ALMOST totally agree, my reason is Sue Bird

 

[mhshuskies]

I can't count how many times this conversation has come up over the last 15-20 years. There is no definitive answer on criteria, and evaluation against that criteria. Should it be 4 or more? Are we just talking players? Does it recognize just the College career or does it include play/contributions after College?
I also have lost track of the number of versions of this graphic I have made over the years. Realizing this conversation will never converge I gave up.

This is one of my last one's where sometime during Stewie's tenure, they had begun to add her on the left. Not sure if they ever finished her head.

View attachment 27503

Missing CD.

 

[meyers7]

Keep in mind that the generally rated #2 president, FDR, is not on Rushmore.

As someone already noted, he wasn't even a president when they started/picked the 4 presidents.

In which case, 2 of the positions, in my mind are easy; best point guard goes without saying,

Hmmm, nobody called you on this. I'm not so sure about that. Bird/Jefferson is really really close (at least when comparing UCONN careers).

Bird - 1x AA, 3x NLC Pt Guard, 1 NPOY, 2 NC's. #1 3pt FG %, #1 FT %, #5 Assists, #12 Steals.
Jefferson - 3X AA, 2X NLC Pt Guard, 0 NPOY (but she was competing with Stewart), 4 NC's. #4 3pt FG %, #7 FT %, #1 Assists, #2 Steals

Comparing UCONN, it's close.

The other 4 starter's spots are pretty set in stone though.

1 - Bird/Jefferson
2- DT
3 - Moore
4 - Stewart
5 - Charles

 

[boontonbomber]

As someone already noted, he wasn't even a president when they started/picked the 4 presidents.


Hmmm, nobody called you on this. I'm not so sure about that. Bird/Jefferson is really really close (at least when comparing UCONN careers).

Bird - 1x AA, 3x NLC Pt Guard, 1 NPOY, 2 NC's. #1 3pt FG %, #1 FT %, #5 Assists, #12 Steals.
Jefferson - 3X AA, 2X NLC Pt Guard, 0 NPOY (but she was competing with Stewart), 4 NC's. #4 3pt FG %, #7 FT %, #1 Assists, #2 Steals

Comparing UCONN, it's close.

The other 4 starter's spots are pretty set in stone though.

1 - Bird/Jefferson
2- DT
3 - Moore
4 - Stewart
5 - Charles

Just saying that Mt. Rushmore not necessarily the best symbol of the 4 best of anything, though Jefferson(Tom , that is) was not bad. Actually I knew the history of the timing of the selected presidents. Re point guard, I always find it hard to compare players using stats and honors, since so much of that depends on who they are playing with and who the competition is. Certainly the stats make it close, but, to me, Sue Bird, even as a collegian, ran the show like nobody before or since. I never thought players like Mo and Renee had the same awareness of their teammates as Sue did, does. When I'm able to see her play , with no exaggeration, I focus on her and how she orchestrates things. I have always been fascinated with her coolness ,control, and, most of all, her vision. You might guess that she was, and , is my favorite player. Therefore maybe I'm a bit biased.

 

[hoophuskee]

There wouldn’t be a Mt Rushmore if it weren’t for Rebecca Lobo...I’m very confused as to how she could be left off this list, unless we’re simply debating best players without regard to their impact on the program. She led the team to first championship, won the wade trophy, and set the stage for all players who followed her.

1- Would Lobo have come if there were no Bascom to get UCONN to the Final Four? Didn't Kay Yow say that she was the one that set-up Geno? It was the upset of NC State getting to the final four according to Yow that put Geno on the map, - wasn't it? Can't it be argued in this manner? I can't find the quote now, but I know she said something to the effect her loss helped make Geno/UCONN. So maybe it was Bascom that set the stage? Lobo's family didn't want Rebecca to go to UCONN, right? If UCONN lost to NC State as they were supposed to and didn't get tot the final four, possibly Lobo never comes because she doesn't feel they cna get to championship level?

2- Would Maya Moore have come if there were no Tina Charles? The UCONN program had leveled off after DT left. Three straight years no final four - and their rankings were anywhere from 6-16? In addition, I was there in Hartford when North Carolina ripped UCONN apart in 05-06. The year before they beat UCONN too. And in 05-06 the classy UCONN fans gave Ivory Latta a standing ovation I believe. Tennessee was the elite program (along with LSU and North Carolina, Stanford and Duke. Do you remember UCONN was losing recuiting battles with Duke?) we were during that time with Parker. Rutgers was giving UCONN fits. Unfortunately- with Tenn we had to witness Parker dunkeing on UCONN/ beat UCONN - I was there for that. Never thought UCONN was better than Tennessee during the Parker era until Maya came. Then I thought we at least had a chance. What makes you so sure Maya would have came if Tina Charles wasn't there? At least I can be skeptical of your confidence, right?

The year before Tina came UCONN got wiped out by Standard pretty good in the S16. Then when Jess Moore graduated, look at UCONN's rebound margin in 05-06. We have about a +3 margin. Without Tina and UCONN getting to the Elite 8, I am not as confident as you that UCONN gets Maya. Maya I'm sure wanted to win championships. And without a big - I'm not so sure she wins championships. And then without Maya . . .

3- And I see no problem with putting the better players on a list. It's an opinion. Mt Rushmore and basketball don't have any correlation anyways. It's based on opinion and fantasy sports. I can understand both sides of Rebecca on or off.

 

[oldude]

1- Would Lobo have come if there were no Bascom to get UCONN to the Final Four? Didn't Kay Yow say that she was the one that set-up Geno? It was the upset of NC State getting to the final four according to Yow that put Geno on the map, - wasn't it? Can't it be argued in this manner? I can't find the quote now, but I know she said something to the effect her loss helped make Geno/UCONN. So maybe it was Bascom that set the stage? Lobo's family didn't want Rebecca to go to UCONN, right? If UCONN lost to NC State as they were supposed to and didn't get tot the final four, possibly Lobo never comes because she doesn't feel they cna get to championship level?

2- Would Maya Moore have come if there were no Tina Charles? The UCONN program had leveled off after DT left. Three straight years no final four - and their rankings were anywhere from 6-16? In addition, I was there in Hartford when North Carolina ripped UCONN apart in 05-06. The year before they beat UCONN too. And in 05-06 the classy UCONN fans gave Ivory Latta a standing ovation I believe. Tennessee was the elite program (along with LSU and North Carolina, Stanford and Duke. Do you remember UCONN was losing recuiting battles with Duke?) we were during that time with Parker. Rutgers was giving UCONN fits. Unfortunately- with Tenn we had to witness Parker dunkeing on UCONN/ beat UCONN - I was there for that. Never thought UCONN was better than Tennessee during the Parker era until Maya came. Then I thought we at least had a chance. What makes you so sure Maya would have came if Tina Charles wasn't there? At least I can be skeptical of your confidence, right?

The year before Tina came UCONN got wiped out by Standard pretty good in the S16. Then when Jess Moore graduated, look at UCONN's rebound margin in 05-06. We have about a +3 margin. Without Tina and UCONN getting to the Elite 8, I am not as confident as you that UCONN gets Maya. Maya I'm sure wanted to win championships. And without a big - I'm not so sure she wins championships. And then without Maya . . .

3- And I see no problem with putting the better players on a list. It's an opinion. Mt Rushmore and basketball don't have any correlation anyways. It's based on opinion and fantasy sports. I can understand both sides of Rebecca on or off.

Your post is a great reminder that everything is a continuum and nothing happens in isolation. It reminds me of Geno’s comments after winning his 1000th game when he praised the incredible effort of his very first team at UConn that won 12 games to begin the turnaround of a program that had been mired in mediocrity.

What if that 1st team doesn’t begin the turnaround that 1st season and achieve a winning record in the 2nd season? Does Bascom still end up in CT? What if Luigi Auriemma’s parents don’t emigrate to the U.S. and settle in a suburb of Philadelphia?

 

[hoophuskee]

Just saying that Mt. Rushmore not necessarily the best symbol of the 4 best of anything, though Jefferson(Tom , that is) was not bad. Actually I knew the history of the timing of the selected presidents. Re point guard, I always find it hard to compare players using stats and honors, since so much of that depends on who they are playing with and who the competition is. Certainly the stats make it close, but, to me, Sue Bird, even as a collegian, ran the show like nobody before or since. I never thought players like Mo and Renee had the same awareness of their teammates as Sue did, does. When I'm able to see her play , with no exaggeration, I focus on her and how she orchestrates things. I have always been fascinated with her coolness ,control, and, most of all, her vision. You might guess that she was, and , is my favorite player. Therefore maybe I'm a bit biased.

Yet I never anyone defend at the guard spot like MoJeff and her assists to turnover ratio was 3-1 while Bird's was 2-1. And MoJeff scored more efficiently. Her EFG% was 62.16% vs Bird at 58.23%.

 

[pacific 44]

I hope Uconn continues to get players so good that everyone we now know gets bumped.

 

[meyers7]

Just saying that Mt. Rushmore not necessarily the best symbol of the 4 best of anything, though Jefferson(Tom , that is) was not bad. Actually I knew the history of the timing of the selected presidents. Re point guard, I always find it hard to compare players using stats and honors, since so much of that depends on who they are playing with and who the competition is. Certainly the stats make it close, but, to me, Sue Bird, even as a collegian, ran the show like nobody before or since. I never thought players like Mo and Renee had the same awareness of their teammates as Sue did, does. When I'm able to see her play , with no exaggeration, I focus on her and how she orchestrates things. I have always been fascinated with her coolness ,control, and, most of all, her vision. You might guess that she was, and , is my favorite player. Therefore maybe I'm a bit biased.

I certainly understand taking Bird over Jefferson, but I was just pointing out it's not as set in stone as the other for positions (independent of Mt Rushmore). I might take Bird too, but it's a really really close call either way. (based on UCONN career - beyond that, it's Bird hands down over anyone, ever)

 

[hoophuskee]

Yet I never anyone defend at the guard spot like MoJeff and her assists to turnover ratio was 3-1 while Bird's was 2-1. And MoJeff scored more efficiently. Her EFG% was 62.16% vs Bird at 58.23%.

OOOOPS.

I looked at the wrong data. MoJeff was 2.65 a/to while Bird's was 2.11.

 

[meyers7]

2- Would Maya Moore have come if there were no Tina Charles? The UCONN program had leveled off after DT left. Three straight years no final four - and their rankings were anywhere from 6-16? In addition, I was there in Hartford when North Carolina ripped UCONN apart in 05-06. The year before they beat UCONN too. And in 05-06 the classy UCONN fans gave Ivory Latta a standing ovation I believe. Tennessee was the elite program (along with LSU and North Carolina, Stanford and Duke. Do you remember UCONN was losing recuiting battles with Duke?) we were during that time with Parker. Rutgers was giving UCONN fits. Unfortunately- with Tenn we had to witness Parker dunkeing on UCONN/ beat UCONN - I was there for that. Never thought UCONN was better than Tennessee during the Parker era until Maya came. Then I thought we at least had a chance. What makes you so sure Maya would have came if Tina Charles wasn't there? At least I can be skeptical of your confidence, right?

The year before Tina came UCONN got wiped out by Standard pretty good in the S16. Then when Jess Moore graduated, look at UCONN's rebound margin in 05-06. We have about a +3 margin. Without Tina and UCONN getting to the Elite 8, I am not as confident as you that UCONN gets Maya. Maya I'm sure wanted to win championships. And without a big - I'm not so sure she wins championships. And then without Maya . . .

Ummmm, nobody remembers the years in the wilderness. And please do not bring them up again.

 

[JSB60]

I love this discussion, and one of the most fun parts is that many people (including me, but I'm a huge fan) would say that Sue Bird is the best point guard ever in the women's game, but we're having a reasonable argument about whether she's the best at UCONN!

 

[MilfordHusky]

I love this discussion, and one of the most fun parts is that many people (including me, but I'm a huge fan) would say that Sue Bird is the best point guard ever in the women's game, but we're having a reasonable argument about whether she's the best at UCONN!

It is crazy, isn’t it? But Sue played only 3+ years at UConn, and Mo has had only 2 injury-ridden years as a pro, so the 2 time periods compare differently.

 

[Lynx23]

LOL not her best game, you use a 50% FG as an example against the number 2 team in the nation and getting to the free throw line as negatives but God bless you for trying to knock her for that, I mean without her efforts on both ends we would have been down closer to 30.

You're taking my statement and making it out to be something it's not meant to be. I'm not trying to "knock" Lou as she's a great player. However, making 5-10 shots was not her best game. That's simply fact. For other players it might be normal, but for her it's not. Actually a tribute to the fact that she usually has a better shooting night. I will admit that I feel her impact on the ND game as perceived by her very exuberant fans is overstated but that's a matter of opinion. I do resent being accused of trying to knock a player down, though, especially as I have been critical in the past of what I see on the part of some posters as an effort to do so, usually in the form of diminishing the contribution and efforts of a player or players as a means to enhancing the efforts and contributions of another, usually one more favored. When we lost to MSU I did not look at one BY thread for seven months because I knew exactly what was coming and I couldn't bear to deal with the finger-pointing and blame-laying that I'm certain followed. I recently decided to give it a another chance but see little has changed. Still, I find the BY entertaining enough not to let it get to me. I'll be honest. I'm a big Kia and Gabby fan and have tix for their final game. I like Lou too, but I'll be sorry to see these two move on. Not sure who'll I'll pay special attention to next year but it will probably be Meg. I'll root for Lou, too.

 

[Lynx23]

But if Lou had played that full 4th quarter in a healthy way we would have outscored nd 35-6. She would have made a significant difference, unlike “Ace” who would not have for an entire game.

The point is, she didn't play the 4th quarter. We can't deal in "ifs " and "maybes" to solidify arguments. Not sure who or what "Ace" is. I admit I have a hard time understanding why Lou's fans insist on overstating (in my opinion) her contribution to the ND win. If we had been ahead in the final quarter because of her 18 points it would be understandable. If I wanted to be a jerk about it, which I don't, I might even contend that her defensive effort contributed to UCONN being down eight points at the start of the 4th quarter. Don't jump on me, I'm sure it was a team effort, or lack thereof. So I get that Lou's fans see the 4th quester as part of a larger gestalt. Since the team was down eight points with Lou and Gabby on the bench and had to mount a historic comeback without them, I don't. BTW, how come no one is arguing that Gabby should be at least partly responsible for the outcome?

 

[Biff]

Missing CD.

Q.E.D.

 

[hoophuskee]

The point is, she didn't play the 4th quarter. We can't deal in "ifs " and "maybes" to solidify arguments. Not sure who or what "Ace" is. I admit I have a hard time understanding why Lou's fans insist on overstating (in my opinion) her contribution to the ND win. If we had been ahead in the final quarter because of her 18 points it would be understandable. If I wanted to be a jerk about it, which I don't, I might even contend that her defensive effort contributed to UCONN being down eight points at the start of the 4th quarter. Don't jump on me, I'm sure it was a team effort, or lack thereof. So I get that Lou's fans see the 4th quester as part of a larger gestalt. Since the team was down eight points with Lou and Gabby on the bench and had to mount a historic comeback without them, I don't. BTW, how come no one is arguing that Gabby should be at least partly responsible for the outcome?

Whoa. I thought you were a Lou fan too? You said the following:

I like Lou too,

Sure doesn't sound like it. You've made it clear you like Gabby and Kia. Now you've made it clear you want to separate yourself "from the Lou fans" in which I htink 99% of all all UCONN wcbb fans are fans of all the players. Your bitterness in a dispute seems kind of odd. You realize UCONN si undefeated, right? Lighten up! SO what some people want to put Lou on a pedestal. Does it bother you that much? Did you need to make a point that you don't know who you'd pay attention to next year? Wouldn't you want to follow them all?
I mean if you want to put Gabby on Rushmore then you can start that thread, right?

 

[diggerfoot]

This continues to be a lively discussion, mainly kept on cordial terms. Impressive. Two further thoughts.

When I compared Lobo to Washington I was comparing the first to be president with the first team MVP to win a NC, not the player responsible for setting things in motion. Bascomb may have been responsible for that, or it may have been whatever player on the roster that attracted Bascomb to the team. That is getting into the realm of pure hypotheticals. It is not hypothetical that Lobo was on the first team to win the NC, nor that she was the MVP on that team, nor (like Washington) she emulated what we would wish of NC winners (or presidents). Others may think that's not a suitable criteria for guaranteeing one of the spots on "Mt. Rushmore," totally understandable as we are dealing with a totally subjective phenomenon, but I want to make clear there was nothing hypothetical behind my criteria for placing her there.

I believe Auriemma continues to improve as a coach over time. One consequence of that is how efficiently the team plays and the stats that go along with that. I'm not willing to declare emphatically that Bird was better than Jefferson, or vice-versa, in regards to their UConn careers. If my hypothesis is true, however, it's misleading to compare efficiency stats between the present and the past. This hypothesis could be tested. A trend of team efficiency stats could be charted. If the trend is ever upward, then so would the trend be for the best individual players. Maybe that hypothesis would be proven wrong (I'm too lazy to do it), but until it is tested I would not place too much stock in comparing efficiency stats for players more than a decade apart.

 

[hoophuskee]

The point is, she didn't play the 4th quarter. We can't deal in "ifs " and "maybes" to solidify arguments. Not sure who or what "Ace" is. I admit I have a hard time understanding why Lou's fans insist on overstating (in my opinion) her contribution to the ND win. If we had been ahead in the final quarter because of her 18 points it would be understandable. If I wanted to be a jerk about it, which I don't, I might even contend that her defensive effort contributed to UCONN being down eight points at the start of the 4th quarter. Don't jump on me, I'm sure it was a team effort, or lack thereof. So I get that Lou's fans see the 4th quester as part of a larger gestalt. Since the team was down eight points with Lou and Gabby on the bench and had to mount a historic comeback without them, I don't. BTW, how come no one is arguing that Gabby should be at least partly responsible for the outcome?

another point. Yo realize this a thread about Lou, right? But yet you say you like Lou? Sorry it doesn't sound that way.

 

[Phil]

Your post is a great reminder that everything is a continuum and nothing happens in isolation. It reminds me of Geno’s comments after winning his 1000th game when he praised the incredible effort of his very first team at UConn that won 12 games to begin the turnaround of a program that had been mired in mediocrity.

What if that 1st team doesn’t begin the turnaround that 1st season and achieve a winning record in the 2nd season? Does Bascom still end up in CT? What if Luigi Auriemma’s parents don’t emigrate to the U.S. and settle in a suburb of Philadelphia?

What if James Naismith doesn't move from Canada to Springfield? What if he never played Duck on a rock as a boy?

 

[oldude]

What if James Naismith doesn't move from Canada to Springfield? What if he never played Duck on a rock as a boy?

Exactly! What if Naismith used a cabbage basket instead of a peach basket?

 

[hoophuskee]

This continues to be a lively discussion, mainly kept on cordial terms. Impressive. Two further thoughts.



I believe Auriemma continues to improve as a coach over time. One consequence of that is how efficiently the team plays and the stats that go along with that. I'm not willing to declare emphatically that Bird was better than Jefferson, or vice-versa, in regards to their UConn careers. If my hypothesis is true, however, it's misleading to compare efficiency stats between the present and the past. This hypothesis could be tested. A trend of team efficiency stats could be charted. If the trend is ever upward, then so would the trend be for the best individual players. Maybe that hypothesis would be proven wrong (I'm too lazy to do it), but until it is tested I would not place too much stock in comparing efficiency stats for players more than a decade apart.

Hey Digger! As usual I love your posts!! Wish you posted more.

Regarding Bird/MoJeff- I don't know what else to do when I throw those efficiency numbers out there. Just like assists to turnovers as well. Heck the joke with Swin Cash was that she'd miss easy shots just so she can pad her offensive rebound numbers - so she must have brned Bird's assist number? j/k. Though it was a joke but a lesser player can hurt a pg's assist to turnovers etc. And who played the tougher schedule? Is today's game better scouted than the past etc?

So when I read from some that Bird is better. The line is something like "I never saw anyone run the team like her." So when I throw the stats out there in which MoJeff has the better assist to turnover ratio and the better shooting % -- the stats from MoJeff are super great. An efg% of 61+% PLUS taking care of the ball in the manner she did- that has to count for something. My comments don't mean to suggest MoJeff is the better offensive player. But MoJeff shouldn't be discarded. And ofc why this is all so hard an basically subjective - on the flip side a lot of her offense came from her defense than Bird. SO when MoJeff has had a breakaway and she scores on a gimme layup it's not really her offense. Thus her offensive fg% has quite a bit due to her defense as well as her passing. If she went in her prime college career vs Bird would she be able to affect Bird's efficiency?" We shall never know. Yet how about Bird? Those teams in her era used to press fullcourt a lot I think. Many teams just couldn't deal with it. SO was Bird of 01-02 in which her team caused 19 turnovers per game actually more available to make direct passes for assists than MoJeff's 15-16 team that caused 20 turnovers per game?

Imo some of these comes to down to preference and perception. Do you know what I wish? A game created that you can draft UCONN players and set up some type of tournament online in which the game is played out-- a best of 7 series - or a regular season - then the playoffs then you ultimately you advance. It won't prove a darn thing but it would be fun -- a computer simulation of a prime college Bird vs a prime college MoJeff etc.