Lou's Journey towards Mt Rushmore

[oldude]

I am a bit surprised there is no real pushback to this idea. I love Lou's game and go so far as to say I think she is the MVP of the team and she does about everything very well but the gap between her and some of our other players is not that large. More to the point, I assume Rushmore still has 4 players max and I cant imagine ever pushing out DT, Maya or Stewie. Unless Lou became a player that dominates WCBB to the point that there would be no doubt she is NPOY as well as pulling our team to multiple NC as an MVP, I would place Rebecca Lobo as number 4 not for her overall game but her importance to building UConn's legacy.

In Geno's words on his last show in answering the importance of Lou and Gabby to the team, he said all our players have strength and weaknesses and some players cover their weaknesses better than others. You need diversity of skills. The perfect player would be like Gabby but can shoot like Lou but there are not to many Maya Moore's around.

This illustrates the dichotomy between the real Mt Rushmores and the 2nd tier of great players that UConn develops.

Agree with your post on all levels including Lobo as the 4th member of Mt Rushmore. Others might suggest Bird, Charles, et al.

However, in my OP, I never suggest that Lou should be in the conversation yet, or that anyone could displace DT, Maya or Stewie. My point was pretty straightforward, that if Lou continues to improve, and achieve both individual success as well as being part of 2 more national championships, she will eventually be in the conversation for that 4th spot on Mt Rushmore.

 

[Bronxjeff]

I think the Mt Rushmore concept itself is a bit limiting. (I believe the sculpture was originally intended to include more presidents as well). My mind game through the years has always been to think of the best five or alternately 10. We have had too many incredible players.

Even the BY universally agreed top three is tiered in my mind by the criterion noted by many above posters: could the star carry the team to victory by their own efforts. Clearly the GOAT and only one to pull that off (twice in fact) is Diana.

Lou definitely has already earned a position in the pantheon of greats. I think her great first half playing on a broken foot in her freshman year semifinals put her there!

 

[eebmg]

Agree with your post on all levels including Lobo as the 4th member of Mt Rushmore. Others might suggest Bird, Charles, et al.

However, in my OP, I never suggest that Lou should be in the conversation yet, or that anyone could displace DT, Maya or Stewie. My point was pretty straightforward, that if Lou continues to improve, and achieve both individual success as well as being part of 2 more national championships, she will eventually be in the conversation for that 4th spot on Mt Rushmore.

I understand your position and I never felt you were saying "now", My point is that even if she follows her current trajectory or even exceeds it to some extent, she will not be at a level where she could displace any of the 4 that I have in mind. Part of the issue is that she is surrounded by super talent at every position so she can't really dominate to the level of being singled out imho.

 

[meyers7]

I thought coming in she had a shot at the 2nd tier, Bird/Charles level. She's definitely heading for it.

 

[oldude]

I understand your position and I never felt you were saying "now", My point is that even if she follows her current trajectory or even exceeds it to some extent, she will not be at a level where she could displace any of the 4 that I have in mind. Part of the issue is that she is surrounded by super talent at every position so she can't really dominate to the level of being singled out imho.

It will certainly be entertaining to watch Lou and this team develop this season and beyond, and while there will always be disagreement between Husky fans on the best of the best, the fact that there are so many incredibly talented players to disagree about is a testimony to just how fortunate we all are to be fans of the greatest team in the history of WBB.

 

[diggerfoot]

This thread has so much good food for thought. As to Rushmore, I agree with eebmg. The real Rushmore includes Washington, the first president. Being first and limiting his terms when others would have made him king makes him perhaps the most deserving figure, even though the other three may have more impressive executive office resumes. Just so, I support Lobo's permanent placement on the Mount because she ushered in the first NC and she personified all the characteristics on and off the court that became part of the ongoing UConn mystique. Though, as for downgrading Samuelson because she is surrounded by others of like importance, it should be noted that Lobo played with two other "players of the year," including best point guard and center, the two most valuable positions, and a fourth person who may have been the most talented of the whole bunch.

I agree with UcMiami that Samuelson was more than a shooter even coming to UConn. I don't pay much attention to recruits until after they put on a UConn uniform, but even I saw enough highlights to know that Samuelson was a scorer, not just a shooter, who could get to the basket well. She also was reported as being tough in high school; I think it's part of the California rep that led others to doubt that until she played on a broken foot and after puking in a bucket.

I would not compare Samuelson's "court sense" to Moore's. I think the word "instinctive" is more appropriate for Moore. Well into her upperclassmen years Auriemma made fun of Moore for not really knowing where to be, yet ending up at the right place at the right time to make the the right shot (that usually went in). Moore personifies effort and instinct, but not so much the "court sense" of knowing where to be and seeing things before they happened, like Taurasi, or Samuelson. I am not saying Samuelson is as good as Taurasi or Moore (or Stewart, who I think she most resembles), just that her "cerebrals" are more like Taurasi than Moore.

In this regards I give a shout out to Mater Dei, because I thought KML also had great court sense coming in. Both fit well early in their UConn careers because they compensated for not being the greatest natural defenders with knowing what is going on in the system and how they should fit in (I also thought KML had a more complete offensive game from the get go than she was credited). Since Mater Dei is a common denominator, I suspect that might have something to do with it.

Be well all and Happy New Year!

 

[boontonbomber]

Keep in mind that the generally rated #2 president, FDR, is not on Rushmore. It's fun to refer to Rushmore in discussion of the great UConn players, but also keep in mind that there have been a whole lot more great UConn players than there have been great presidents. As Rushmore is limited, leaving out FDR, to limit UConn discussion to 4 is not fair. Anyway, I think it's impossible to compare players who play different positions; definitely better to rate by position, as vball coach said in earlier post. In which case, 2 of the positions, in my mind are easy; best point guard goes without saying, and best center is Tina Charles. Best wing or forward? There are 3 who are the best, again they don't have to be named. Samuelson may very well join that group of wings/forwards, as she gets stronger and quicker.

 

[iamcbs]

Kelsey Mitchell has to go on the top line and I'm glad people are starting to appreciate Ionescu.....

 

[eebmg]

Kelsey Mitchell has to go on the top line and I'm glad people are starting to appreciate Ionescu.....

Everyone on the BY appreciated Ionescu from the beginning. Mitchell is far more an acquired taste.

 

[iamcbs]

Yes, Lou is one fine player, but...
Geno's comment about low scoring when Lou was on the bench, was amended right after with, "Lou and Gabby".
My point is that this is clearly an ensemble team, without a standout like the first 3 on the Mount.
There is no resemblance to, e.g, DT holding up the rest of the crew in '04.
Kia's a 1st rate defender and possesses the best 3 pt % in America.
Gabby is an other-worldly athlete who's the disruptive Lawrence Taylor of wcbb.
Pheesa's a super finisher; Z & CD are contributing nicely in an above average fashion.
I just don't see the singling out of Katie Lou as an accurate perception.

Just watch how much differently the team plays when she's not in the game, maybe your perception will change....

 

[iamcbs]

Just because you haven't acquired a taste for her doesn't mean that she's not one of the 3 best WCBB players in the country today. Her talent and ability doesn't require that you like her....

 

[RockyMTblue2]

@iamcbs your posts are a bit - okay more than a bit - off topic.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Whenever this Rushmore thing makes an appearance I feel compelled to say: We need a bigger mountain.

 

[DefenseBB]

After Geno's comment, I began thinking along somewhat the same lines, oldude, though not nearly as articulately or fully as you.

Lou is amazing, and improving all the time. But I don't think she quite deserves to be on Mt Rushmore. That's D, Maya, and Stewie territory, and Lou just doesn't get up there, IMHO. Even when her 3s are dropping like spring rain, she just can't take over a game quite as completely as they did.

You highlight Lou's leadership skills, which are manifested by her stellar ability to take charges and by her emotional displays. But there's another skill that I think Geno meant most: Lou has fantastic court sense (to distinguish it from my2cents's judgment, which I agree with, about Maya's supernal basketball instincts). She moves constantly, and keeps the flow moving for all 5 players. That's really what question Geno was answering: why was the UConn offense so listless. Because everyone was sort of standing around without Lou's motion, creativity, and constant thread to pop a couple of 3s in a row. She is the straw that stirs the drink. But in 2 years, when Geno gives her more freedom, Meg could well be the drink.

Bags, I always respect your opinion and perspective, however on this opinion we must part. With 1.5 years left and the noted improvement that our fine colleague Oldude articulated so eloquently, I want to remind you we are saying she would be 4th, not supplanting any of the other supernatural 3. Her competition is Lobo, Bird and probably Tina Charles. That the current team is significantly better with KLS on the floor (I like KLS over “Lou” so please bear with my indulgence) which was evidences in her absences due to her foot injury and by Geno himself last night. She is, to coin a phrase, the straw that stirs this Long Island ice tea of potent alcohols!
As she developed more swagger/confidence with big games against big competition, she will have the opportunity for that profile to be chiseled. Remember, DT had tremendous support her 1st 2 years and NO support her last two so the team had to rely on her and gave her the opportunity to shine (and boy did she!). Maya came in after a few years of drought and helped elevate Tina and make UConn the most relevant program over Tenn. Stewie, well she just absolutely became whatever we needed to stay on top and had other team already intimidated before the games. She put UConn in EXALTED status where it is Expect for UConn to reload and win.
After those 3, KLS certainly can rise to #4 but she does need a NPOY award to be considered.

 

[DefenseBB]

Yes, Lou is one fine player, but...
Geno's comment about low scoring when Lou was on the bench, was amended right after with, "Lou and Gabby".
My point is that this is clearly an ensemble team, without a standout like the first 3 on the Mount.
There is no resemblance to, e.g, DT holding up the rest of the crew in '04.
Kia's a 1st rate defender and possesses the best 3 pt % in America.
Gabby is an other-worldly athlete who's the disruptive Lawrence Taylor of wcbb.
Pheesa's a super finisher; Z & CD are contributing nicely in an above average fashion.
I just don't see the singling out of Katie Lou as an accurate perception.

Wirechief, I don’t think anyone is dismissing the other GREAT players and to clarify Maya, has Tina for 3 years, Stewie had KML, Steph and Bria for a few and Morgan/Moriah for all 4 and we are not taking away their contributions. We are only discussing who we think is the lead actor in an academy award winning movie/play. That’s what forums are for. So I stand by Oldude’s, mine and others posts with the caveat we are not diminishing any other of our outstanding team members contributions. Kindly and respectfully submitted-DefenseBB

 

[Phil]

I think the Mt Rushmore concept itself is a bit limiting. (I believe the sculpture was originally intended to include more presidents as well). My mind game through the years has always been to think of the best five or alternately 10. We have had too many incredible players.

Not just more presidents, I read recently that the plan was to be more than just heads, maybe from waist up or so. But they ran out of funding.

 

[dtbtbtb]

I'm impressed by the strides Lou made on defense. When she played for the US U17 team I was thinking she was one of the worst defenders I've seen (she couldn't guard a chair...literarily as that chair would drive past her). Well, look at her now...moving her feet, sliding, covering space, having her hands up, taking charges, switching on defense, help defense...she is not Gabby and never be but she became a reliable defender.
She is one of my favorites on the team and love watching her play as it's clear she just loves the game and loves to play it. She could average 25-30 points a game on basically every team in the country but in UConn she is a total team player and her assists are indeed Bird (Larry) like.
Will she get to be that 4th best UConn player of all time? we'll see....but she is already IMO one of the top 15 with the possibility on going higher and higher.

 

[JordyG]

Lou’s constant movement isn’t confined to the basketball court. Whenever she’s interviewed she is constantly bobbing and weaving from side to side. At first, I found that a little disconcerting, but now that I’ve grown accustomed to it, it’s just one more thing I like about Lou.

I still get seasick watching her interviews.

 

[bags27]

Just watch how much differently the team plays when she's not in the game, maybe your perception will change....

UConn came back from down 11 and pulled away from Notre Dame in the final period, with Lou on the bench. Just sayin'

 

[oldude]

UConn came back from down 11 and pulled away from Notre Dame in the final period, with Lou on the bench. Just sayin'

I absolutely agree, but would respectfully point out that with ND threatening to put the game out of reach in the 3rd qtr, Lou was spectacular on both ends of the court keeping the Huskies within range before going down with an injury early in the 4th qtr. While she wasn't around for the finish, Lou's heroic effort on a bum ankle was inspiring.

 

[bags27]

I absolutely agree, but would respectfully point out that with ND threatening to put the game out of reach in the 3rd qtr, Lou was spectacular on both ends of the court keeping the Huskies within range before going down with an injury early in the 4th qtr. While she wasn't around for the finish, Lou's heroic effort on a bum ankle was inspiring.

I think Lou's previous injury was pretty well healed. I watched her warm up and she looked loose and confident, and Geno thought all week that she'd play. Not knocking Lou: she's a warrior (think Maryland game last year). My point is that with both her and Gabby on the bench the 4th Q, UConn came back. Z and Meg really stepped up. I really believe that the top 7 players on this team are pretty much interchangeable. When one or two are down, others step up.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

UConn came back from down 11 and pulled away from Notre Dame in the final period, with Lou on the bench. Just sayin'

That is absolutely true...but let's not forget Lou was on the bench because of injury, and Z had her best UConn game to that point...and Lou provided 18 points (team leader for the game) in less than 3 quarters of playing time. So, clearly she was doing her part to keep UConn close through that time.
On the same line of discussion, Lou has taken over games when others seemed to fade (?? not sure that's the right word)... most notably the barf bowl in MD in 2016... USF in AAC Championship game 2017 and more

I don't know enough about Husky History to debate 4th seat on a imaginary mountain, but Lou's contributions to this year's Team have been pretty important... so let's revel in that... and root the Team to another National Championship.

Just sayin'

 

[Golden Husky]

What's left to say? Did anyone mention that Lou's team-best assist-to-turnover rate this season is one dish shy of 3-1?

 

[mhshuskies]

This thread has so much good food for thought. As to Rushmore, I agree with eebmg. The real Rushmore includes Washington, the first president. Being first and limiting his terms when others would have made him king makes him perhaps the most deserving figure, even though the other three may have more impressive executive office resumes. Just so, I support Lobo's permanent placement on the Mount because she ushered in the first NC and she personified all the characteristics on and off the court that became part of the ongoing UConn mystique. Though, as for downgrading Samuelson because she is surrounded by others of like importance, it should be noted that Lobo played with two other "players of the year," including best point guard and center, the two most valuable positions, and a fourth person who may have been the most talented of the whole bunch.

I agree with UcMiami that Samuelson was more than a shooter even coming to UConn. I don't pay much attention to recruits until after they put on a UConn uniform, but even I saw enough highlights to know that Samuelson was a scorer, not just a shooter, who could get to the basket well. She also was reported as being tough in high school; I think it's part of the California rep that led others to doubt that until she played on a broken foot and after puking in a bucket.

I would not compare Samuelson's "court sense" to Moore's. I think the word "instinctive" is more appropriate for Moore. Well into her upperclassmen years Auriemma made fun of Moore for not really knowing where to be, yet ending up at the right place at the right time to make the the right shot (that usually went in). Moore personifies effort and instinct, but not so much the "court sense" of knowing where to be and seeing things before they happened, like Taurasi, or Samuelson. I am not saying Samuelson is as good as Taurasi or Moore (or Stewart, who I think she most resembles), just that her "cerebrals" are more like Taurasi than Moore.

In this regards I give a shout out to Mater Dei, because I thought KML also had great court sense coming in. Both fit well early in their UConn careers because they compensated for not being the greatest natural defenders with knowing what is going on in the system and how they should fit in (I also thought KML had a more complete offensive game from the get go than she was credited). Since Mater Dei is a common denominator, I suspect that might have something to do with it.

Be well all and Happy New Year!

I don’t disagree with Lobo being considered as the fourth. However, if the criteria was the first great player, even Geno would tell you that was Kerry Bascom.

 

[Lynx23]

That is absolutely true...but let's not forget Lou was on the bench because of injury, and Z had her best UConn game to that point...and Lou provided 18 points (team leader for the game) in less than 3 quarters of playing time. So, clearly she was doing her part to keep UConn close through that time.
On the same line of discussion, Lou has taken over games when others seemed to fade (?? not sure that's the right word)... most notably the barf bowl in MD in 2016... USF in AAC Championship game 2017 and more

I don't know enough about Husky History to debate 4th seat on a imaginary mountain, but Lou's contributions to this year's Team have been pretty important... so let's revel in that... and root the Team to another National Championship.

Just sayin'

Regarding the ND game, Lou did score the most points but she was also 5-10 with 6 points coming at the free-throw line. Not her best game. You can argue that her points put UCONN in a position to win but, frankly, so did everyone else's up to that point. Yet, history shows that we were down 8 points going into the 4th. Stevens generally gets the credit for bringing the team back but people overlook the fact that Kia scored 7 points in a row in that quarter (if my memory serves me well) and surely a stellar defensive effort on her part as well as others contributed to the fact that UCONN outscored ND 26-7 in that quarter. Lou, God bless her, as good as she is, had nothing to do with that. One of her fans went so far as to suggest that she was the game's BADASS because she made a Willis Reed appearance with injury in the closing seconds to will the team to victory (major eye roll). I get it, she has a lot of fans on this board but none of her accomplishments, or those of the other players, exist in a vacuum. If a player is scoring the most points in any given game, there's a good chance it's the result of unselfish team play, which really is this team's mantra.