Lou's Journey towards Mt Rushmore

[pacific 44]

I hope Uconn continues to get players so good that everyone we now know gets bumped.

 

[meyers7]

Just saying that Mt. Rushmore not necessarily the best symbol of the 4 best of anything, though Jefferson(Tom , that is) was not bad. Actually I knew the history of the timing of the selected presidents. Re point guard, I always find it hard to compare players using stats and honors, since so much of that depends on who they are playing with and who the competition is. Certainly the stats make it close, but, to me, Sue Bird, even as a collegian, ran the show like nobody before or since. I never thought players like Mo and Renee had the same awareness of their teammates as Sue did, does. When I'm able to see her play , with no exaggeration, I focus on her and how she orchestrates things. I have always been fascinated with her coolness ,control, and, most of all, her vision. You might guess that she was, and , is my favorite player. Therefore maybe I'm a bit biased.

I certainly understand taking Bird over Jefferson, but I was just pointing out it's not as set in stone as the other for positions (independent of Mt Rushmore). I might take Bird too, but it's a really really close call either way. (based on UCONN career - beyond that, it's Bird hands down over anyone, ever)

 

[hoophuskee]

Yet I never anyone defend at the guard spot like MoJeff and her assists to turnover ratio was 3-1 while Bird's was 2-1. And MoJeff scored more efficiently. Her EFG% was 62.16% vs Bird at 58.23%.

OOOOPS.

I looked at the wrong data. MoJeff was 2.65 a/to while Bird's was 2.11.

 

[meyers7]

2- Would Maya Moore have come if there were no Tina Charles? The UCONN program had leveled off after DT left. Three straight years no final four - and their rankings were anywhere from 6-16? In addition, I was there in Hartford when North Carolina ripped UCONN apart in 05-06. The year before they beat UCONN too. And in 05-06 the classy UCONN fans gave Ivory Latta a standing ovation I believe. Tennessee was the elite program (along with LSU and North Carolina, Stanford and Duke. Do you remember UCONN was losing recuiting battles with Duke?) we were during that time with Parker. Rutgers was giving UCONN fits. Unfortunately- with Tenn we had to witness Parker dunkeing on UCONN/ beat UCONN - I was there for that. Never thought UCONN was better than Tennessee during the Parker era until Maya came. Then I thought we at least had a chance. What makes you so sure Maya would have came if Tina Charles wasn't there? At least I can be skeptical of your confidence, right?

The year before Tina came UCONN got wiped out by Standard pretty good in the S16. Then when Jess Moore graduated, look at UCONN's rebound margin in 05-06. We have about a +3 margin. Without Tina and UCONN getting to the Elite 8, I am not as confident as you that UCONN gets Maya. Maya I'm sure wanted to win championships. And without a big - I'm not so sure she wins championships. And then without Maya . . .

Ummmm, nobody remembers the years in the wilderness. And please do not bring them up again.

 

[JSB60]

I love this discussion, and one of the most fun parts is that many people (including me, but I'm a huge fan) would say that Sue Bird is the best point guard ever in the women's game, but we're having a reasonable argument about whether she's the best at UCONN!

 

[MilfordHusky]

I love this discussion, and one of the most fun parts is that many people (including me, but I'm a huge fan) would say that Sue Bird is the best point guard ever in the women's game, but we're having a reasonable argument about whether she's the best at UCONN!

It is crazy, isn’t it? But Sue played only 3+ years at UConn, and Mo has had only 2 injury-ridden years as a pro, so the 2 time periods compare differently.

 

[Lynx23]

LOL not her best game, you use a 50% FG as an example against the number 2 team in the nation and getting to the free throw line as negatives but God bless you for trying to knock her for that, I mean without her efforts on both ends we would have been down closer to 30.

You're taking my statement and making it out to be something it's not meant to be. I'm not trying to "knock" Lou as she's a great player. However, making 5-10 shots was not her best game. That's simply fact. For other players it might be normal, but for her it's not. Actually a tribute to the fact that she usually has a better shooting night. I will admit that I feel her impact on the ND game as perceived by her very exuberant fans is overstated but that's a matter of opinion. I do resent being accused of trying to knock a player down, though, especially as I have been critical in the past of what I see on the part of some posters as an effort to do so, usually in the form of diminishing the contribution and efforts of a player or players as a means to enhancing the efforts and contributions of another, usually one more favored. When we lost to MSU I did not look at one BY thread for seven months because I knew exactly what was coming and I couldn't bear to deal with the finger-pointing and blame-laying that I'm certain followed. I recently decided to give it a another chance but see little has changed. Still, I find the BY entertaining enough not to let it get to me. I'll be honest. I'm a big Kia and Gabby fan and have tix for their final game. I like Lou too, but I'll be sorry to see these two move on. Not sure who'll I'll pay special attention to next year but it will probably be Meg. I'll root for Lou, too.

 

[Lynx23]

But if Lou had played that full 4th quarter in a healthy way we would have outscored nd 35-6. She would have made a significant difference, unlike “Ace” who would not have for an entire game.

The point is, she didn't play the 4th quarter. We can't deal in "ifs " and "maybes" to solidify arguments. Not sure who or what "Ace" is. I admit I have a hard time understanding why Lou's fans insist on overstating (in my opinion) her contribution to the ND win. If we had been ahead in the final quarter because of her 18 points it would be understandable. If I wanted to be a jerk about it, which I don't, I might even contend that her defensive effort contributed to UCONN being down eight points at the start of the 4th quarter. Don't jump on me, I'm sure it was a team effort, or lack thereof. So I get that Lou's fans see the 4th quester as part of a larger gestalt. Since the team was down eight points with Lou and Gabby on the bench and had to mount a historic comeback without them, I don't. BTW, how come no one is arguing that Gabby should be at least partly responsible for the outcome?

 

[Biff]

Missing CD.

Q.E.D.

 

[hoophuskee]

The point is, she didn't play the 4th quarter. We can't deal in "ifs " and "maybes" to solidify arguments. Not sure who or what "Ace" is. I admit I have a hard time understanding why Lou's fans insist on overstating (in my opinion) her contribution to the ND win. If we had been ahead in the final quarter because of her 18 points it would be understandable. If I wanted to be a jerk about it, which I don't, I might even contend that her defensive effort contributed to UCONN being down eight points at the start of the 4th quarter. Don't jump on me, I'm sure it was a team effort, or lack thereof. So I get that Lou's fans see the 4th quester as part of a larger gestalt. Since the team was down eight points with Lou and Gabby on the bench and had to mount a historic comeback without them, I don't. BTW, how come no one is arguing that Gabby should be at least partly responsible for the outcome?

Whoa. I thought you were a Lou fan too? You said the following:

I like Lou too,

Sure doesn't sound like it. You've made it clear you like Gabby and Kia. Now you've made it clear you want to separate yourself "from the Lou fans" in which I htink 99% of all all UCONN wcbb fans are fans of all the players. Your bitterness in a dispute seems kind of odd. You realize UCONN si undefeated, right? Lighten up! SO what some people want to put Lou on a pedestal. Does it bother you that much? Did you need to make a point that you don't know who you'd pay attention to next year? Wouldn't you want to follow them all?
I mean if you want to put Gabby on Rushmore then you can start that thread, right?

 

[diggerfoot]

This continues to be a lively discussion, mainly kept on cordial terms. Impressive. Two further thoughts.

When I compared Lobo to Washington I was comparing the first to be president with the first team MVP to win a NC, not the player responsible for setting things in motion. Bascomb may have been responsible for that, or it may have been whatever player on the roster that attracted Bascomb to the team. That is getting into the realm of pure hypotheticals. It is not hypothetical that Lobo was on the first team to win the NC, nor that she was the MVP on that team, nor (like Washington) she emulated what we would wish of NC winners (or presidents). Others may think that's not a suitable criteria for guaranteeing one of the spots on "Mt. Rushmore," totally understandable as we are dealing with a totally subjective phenomenon, but I want to make clear there was nothing hypothetical behind my criteria for placing her there.

I believe Auriemma continues to improve as a coach over time. One consequence of that is how efficiently the team plays and the stats that go along with that. I'm not willing to declare emphatically that Bird was better than Jefferson, or vice-versa, in regards to their UConn careers. If my hypothesis is true, however, it's misleading to compare efficiency stats between the present and the past. This hypothesis could be tested. A trend of team efficiency stats could be charted. If the trend is ever upward, then so would the trend be for the best individual players. Maybe that hypothesis would be proven wrong (I'm too lazy to do it), but until it is tested I would not place too much stock in comparing efficiency stats for players more than a decade apart.

 

[hoophuskee]

The point is, she didn't play the 4th quarter. We can't deal in "ifs " and "maybes" to solidify arguments. Not sure who or what "Ace" is. I admit I have a hard time understanding why Lou's fans insist on overstating (in my opinion) her contribution to the ND win. If we had been ahead in the final quarter because of her 18 points it would be understandable. If I wanted to be a jerk about it, which I don't, I might even contend that her defensive effort contributed to UCONN being down eight points at the start of the 4th quarter. Don't jump on me, I'm sure it was a team effort, or lack thereof. So I get that Lou's fans see the 4th quester as part of a larger gestalt. Since the team was down eight points with Lou and Gabby on the bench and had to mount a historic comeback without them, I don't. BTW, how come no one is arguing that Gabby should be at least partly responsible for the outcome?

another point. Yo realize this a thread about Lou, right? But yet you say you like Lou? Sorry it doesn't sound that way.

 

[Phil]

Your post is a great reminder that everything is a continuum and nothing happens in isolation. It reminds me of Geno’s comments after winning his 1000th game when he praised the incredible effort of his very first team at UConn that won 12 games to begin the turnaround of a program that had been mired in mediocrity.

What if that 1st team doesn’t begin the turnaround that 1st season and achieve a winning record in the 2nd season? Does Bascom still end up in CT? What if Luigi Auriemma’s parents don’t emigrate to the U.S. and settle in a suburb of Philadelphia?

What if James Naismith doesn't move from Canada to Springfield? What if he never played Duck on a rock as a boy?

 

[oldude]

What if James Naismith doesn't move from Canada to Springfield? What if he never played Duck on a rock as a boy?

Exactly! What if Naismith used a cabbage basket instead of a peach basket?

 

[hoophuskee]

This continues to be a lively discussion, mainly kept on cordial terms. Impressive. Two further thoughts.



I believe Auriemma continues to improve as a coach over time. One consequence of that is how efficiently the team plays and the stats that go along with that. I'm not willing to declare emphatically that Bird was better than Jefferson, or vice-versa, in regards to their UConn careers. If my hypothesis is true, however, it's misleading to compare efficiency stats between the present and the past. This hypothesis could be tested. A trend of team efficiency stats could be charted. If the trend is ever upward, then so would the trend be for the best individual players. Maybe that hypothesis would be proven wrong (I'm too lazy to do it), but until it is tested I would not place too much stock in comparing efficiency stats for players more than a decade apart.

Hey Digger! As usual I love your posts!! Wish you posted more.

Regarding Bird/MoJeff- I don't know what else to do when I throw those efficiency numbers out there. Just like assists to turnovers as well. Heck the joke with Swin Cash was that she'd miss easy shots just so she can pad her offensive rebound numbers - so she must have brned Bird's assist number? j/k. Though it was a joke but a lesser player can hurt a pg's assist to turnovers etc. And who played the tougher schedule? Is today's game better scouted than the past etc?

So when I read from some that Bird is better. The line is something like "I never saw anyone run the team like her." So when I throw the stats out there in which MoJeff has the better assist to turnover ratio and the better shooting % -- the stats from MoJeff are super great. An efg% of 61+% PLUS taking care of the ball in the manner she did- that has to count for something. My comments don't mean to suggest MoJeff is the better offensive player. But MoJeff shouldn't be discarded. And ofc why this is all so hard an basically subjective - on the flip side a lot of her offense came from her defense than Bird. SO when MoJeff has had a breakaway and she scores on a gimme layup it's not really her offense. Thus her offensive fg% has quite a bit due to her defense as well as her passing. If she went in her prime college career vs Bird would she be able to affect Bird's efficiency?" We shall never know. Yet how about Bird? Those teams in her era used to press fullcourt a lot I think. Many teams just couldn't deal with it. SO was Bird of 01-02 in which her team caused 19 turnovers per game actually more available to make direct passes for assists than MoJeff's 15-16 team that caused 20 turnovers per game?

Imo some of these comes to down to preference and perception. Do you know what I wish? A game created that you can draft UCONN players and set up some type of tournament online in which the game is played out-- a best of 7 series - or a regular season - then the playoffs then you ultimately you advance. It won't prove a darn thing but it would be fun -- a computer simulation of a prime college Bird vs a prime college MoJeff etc.

 

[CBear01]

Neither Diana, Maya or Stewie played with potentially three (3) other deserving All-Americans as well as a point guard that will most likely be one next season.

Huh?
*Diana played with Bird, Cash, Jones, all Americans. Also we have Svet and Shea on the 2001-01 team (Diana freshman). Players of the year too! TW had plenty of honors, including a FG% that you cannot touch

*Maya played with Charles and Montgomery, both all Americans, and both players of the year! Tiffany Hayes was also All American (3rd team). Chardé was honorable mention too.

*Stewie had Tuck and Jefferson, again All Americans. Plus Katie Lou and Pheese, all americans. And Gabby. And when Nurse becomes one this year add another

I'm confused...am I missing something? So all these ladies had fabulous help, which IMHO, makes them even better at what they do.

It's just too hard to start comparing the best of best in the sport. Point is we have been blessed with more All Americans than imaginable

 

[YellwJcket999]

Katie Lou is very much an improved player this year. Her defense, rebounds and post moves are much better. She is a fan favorite no doubt.
You can't seriously look at the statistics and place Katie Lou on Uconn Mt Rushmore. A comparative look at her versus the Uconn all time greats year by year does not support this.

I like the conversation and it fun to cheer our favorite. Looking at the numbers objectively just doesn't pan out.

 

[diggerfoot]

Hey Digger! As usual I love your posts!! Wish you posted more.

Regarding Bird/MoJeff- I don't know what else to do when I throw those efficiency numbers out there. Just like assists to turnovers as well. Heck the joke with Swin Cash was that she'd miss easy shots just so she can pad her offensive rebound numbers - so she must have brned Bird's assist number? j/k. Though it was a joke but a lesser player can hurt a pg's assist to turnovers etc. And who played the tougher schedule? Is today's game better scouted than the past etc?

So when I read from some that Bird is better. The line is something like "I never saw anyone run the team like her." So when I throw the stats out there in which MoJeff has the better assist to turnover ratio and the better shooting % -- the stats from MoJeff are super great. An efg% of 61+% PLUS taking care of the ball in the manner she did- that has to count for something. My comments don't mean to suggest MoJeff is the better offensive player. But MoJeff shouldn't be discarded. And ofc why this is all so hard an basically subjective - on the flip side a lot of her offense came from her defense than Bird. SO when MoJeff has had a breakaway and she scores on a gimme layup it's not really her offense. Thus her offensive fg% has quite a bit due to her defense as well as her passing. If she went in her prime college career vs Bird would she be able to affect Bird's efficiency?" We shall never know. Yet how about Bird? Those teams in her era used to press fullcourt a lot I think. Many teams just couldn't deal with it. SO was Bird of 01-02 in which her team caused 19 turnovers per game actually more available to make direct passes for assists than MoJeff's 15-16 team that caused 20 turnovers per game?

Imo some of these comes to down to preference and perception. Do you know what I wish? A game created that you can draft UCONN players and set up some type of tournament online in which the game is played out-- a best of 7 series - or a regular season - then the playoffs then you ultimately you advance. It won't prove a darn thing but it would be fun -- a computer simulation of a prime college Bird vs a prime college MoJeff etc.

Thanks, hoophuskee, you know I as well enjoy your evidence based posts. I think we are getting at the same thing, but with different sensitivities. Bird v Jefferson for their UConn careers I believe is a tough call (though Jefferson will have to do some remarkable things to catch Bird in the pros). However, I think the natural tendency is to rely on tangible stats to tell the story (while your sensitivity seems to be when people rely on reputation). The UConn mantra is "Play smart. Play hard. Have fun." Not "Score points. Get rebounds. Make assists." While the intangible qualities manifest themselves in stats that can be measured, they also have effects that cannot be measured. Few people played smarter than Taurasi, and in doing so able to make the most out of inexperienced teammates. Few people played harder than Moore, and in doing so inspired talented teammates to reach their potential. Few people have more fun on the court than Stewart, and in doing so calms her teammates even when playing a team that previously beat them repeatedly.

 

[HumblePie]

Huh?
*Diana played with Bird, Cash, Jones, all Americans. Also we have Svet and Shea on the 2001-01 team (Diana freshman). Players of the year too! TW had plenty of honors, including a FG% that you cannot touch

*Maya played with Charles and Montgomery, both all Americans, and both players of the year! Tiffany Hayes was also All American (3rd team). Chardé was honorable mention too.

*Stewie had Tuck and Jefferson, again All Americans. Plus Katie Lou and Pheese, all americans. And Gabby. And when Nurse becomes one this year add another

I'm confused...am I missing something? So all these ladies had fabulous help, which IMHO, makes them even better at what they do.

It's just too hard to start comparing the best of best in the sport. Point is we have been blessed with more All Americans than imaginable

Yes, you definitely missed something rather large. You might try re-reading (slowly) what I wrote! It should have been very obvious that I was speaking of All-Americans on the SAME TEAM, in the SAME SEASON, and NOT over an entire career!

What source did you use to claim Asjha Jones was an All-American?

 

[CBear01]

Yes, you definitely missed something rather large. You might try re-reading (slowly) what I wrote! It should have been very obvious that I was speaking of All-Americans on the SAME TEAM, in the SAME SEASON, and NOT over an entire career!

What source did you use to claim Asjha Jones was an All-American?

No, I read correctly. Diana played on the same team in the same season as as Bird, Cash, Jones, Svet, and Shea. All were all americans. I used the same idea for Maya and Stewie. Now you cant possibly be talking about more than 3 all americans in a single season from the same team, NCAA does not allow that. Asjha Jones was 3rd team in 2001-02. To refresh your memory here's a list compiled by the Courant in 2015 (just add all our All Americans after that! ) UConn Women's All-Time All-America List

 

[YellwJcket999]

I disagree with the sentiment that you cant compare greats.The entire purpose of keeping stats and record books is to provide tools for comparative measure that are not subjective. You can only compete against the people/players in your era. Batting average, RBI, ERA, Efficiency, shooting percentage, turnovers etc. All give a basis for comparison. Players can only perform under the situations that are present when they play. We can all say what if this or that. But numbers are what they are.

I don't think that T.Brady is the greatest quarterback of all time. His completion percentage, qb rating and superbowl rings say that he is. I don't think the Steph Curry Warriors are better than MJ Bulls, Show time Lakers or LB Celtics. =>B.R.'s 10 rings say otherwise.

When KLS passes KML for the all time Uconn 3ptrs, is she Uconn's best shooter? Define best. Without a doubt she will have made the most 3's in Huskie history.

I say for this debate we come up with an objective standard, a rubric, metric whatever and evaluate the All time greats.
The data is out there. We have excel proficient members. What's the harm? I think no matter the criteria, the cream will rise to the top.

 

[hoophuskee]

Thanks, hoophuskee, you know I as well enjoy your evidence based posts. I think we are getting at the same thing, but with different sensitivities. Bird v Jefferson for their UConn careers I believe is a tough call (though Jefferson will have to do some remarkable things to catch Bird in the pros). However, I think the natural tendency is to rely on tangible stats to tell the story (while your sensitivity seems to be when people rely on reputation). The UConn mantra is "Play smart. Play hard. Have fun." Not "Score points. Get rebounds. Make assists." While the intangible qualities manifest themselves in stats that can be measured, they also have effects that cannot be measured. Few people played smarter than Taurasi, and in doing so able to make the most out of inexperienced teammates. Few people played harder than Moore, and in doing so inspired talented teammates to reach their potential. Few people have more fun on the court than Stewart, and in doing so calms her teammates even when playing a team that previously beat them repeatedly.

Same here. Great point about intangibles. I agree 100%. Which is why I can't say definitively either (no one can). Though I know we agree that stats don't tell the entire story as you make mention with intangibles, they do tell a story. But I believe there is, but not limited to, that a mantra of score points, get rebounds and make assists though. Those are related to to basketball fundamentals and basketball skills which UCONN imo must preach.

 

[HumblePie]

No, I read correctly. Diana played on the same team in the same season as as Bird, Cash, Jones, Svet, and Shea. All were all americans. I used the same idea for Maya and Stewie. Now you cant possibly be talking about more than 3 all americans in a single season from the same team, NCAA does not allow that. Asjha Jones was 3rd team in 2001-02. To refresh your memory here's a list compiled by the Courant in 2015 (just add all our All Americans after that! ) UConn Women's All-Time All-America List

Dude, we are talking about two different things, but I'm going to let it go because it's too time consuming trying to get you to follow what I said. However, the words "potentially" and "deserving" should have precluded the referenced NCAA ruling.

 

[CBear01]

Dude, we are talking about two different things, but I'm going to let it go because it's too time consuming trying to get you to follow what I said. However, the words "potentially" and "deserving" should have precluded the referenced NCAA ruling.

2 dif things? This is what you said and why I commented:

Here's the thing you're missing, although you should have clearly seen it. Neither Diana, Maya or Stewie played with potentially three (3) other deserving All-Americans

How are we talking about dif things? I responded to the statement you made that Diana, Maya, and Stewie never played with 3 (and you use the word potential as well here) all americans. We can see that just isn't true so what different thing are you talking about? How am I reading what you say wrong? I mean you say it pretty definitively. I even included the list of all americans so you can double check your memory.

I'm not trying cause ruckus I'm just trying to understand your argument. Can you explain more then? Feel free to PM me

 

[ochoopsfan]

I am a bit confused by this topic. Why does Lou want to go to South Dakota? Is she going to play Eva Marie Saints role in a North By Northwest remake?

I dont know about being on a Mt Rushmore, but she is on my top 5 of all time "Buns" team.