Louisville OOC

[Nuyoika]

Nuyoika, I said "much better", not better. I'll stand with what I said, The Cards OOC schedule is a very nice schedule, especially when you consider they must compete in what many call the best women's basketball conference in the country.

You bring up an interesting point here. As long as I can remember (I'm only 29, but still especially in the last 10 years) the only conference I have ever heard ESPN, ESPNW, or an ESPN analyst refer to as the best conference in a WCBB is the SEC. That has been debated up and down and all around and I'm not trying to get you to agree or disagree with that but...

A few years back UConn, ND, Louisville, DePaul, Syracuse among others were all in the same conference and tearing everyone apart sending 2 teams to the NCAA title game year after year.... I don't recall the powers that be calling the Big East the best conference in WCBB and have certainly not heard that about the ACC maybe this was some time ago that that was the case.

Getting to my point if the pre-season #1 and #2 are in the same conference shouldn't that make it the best conference in WCBB? Or does the collection of teams below them and what they can do mean more than having 2 really good teams since basically every major WCBB conference is made up of 2 really good teams and 2 to 5 other teams that will make the tourney but likely don't have a shot in hell @ a FF.

 

[JordyG]

Have to respectfully disagree.

Last four years: NCAA Runner-Up (2013), Elite Eight (2014), Sweet 16 (2015), Second Round (2016).

Louisville lost Shoni Schimmel and her fellow starters from the 2014 Elite Eight team (believe the team lost five or six seniors). The next year, Walz was relying on Jude Schimmel and a few role players, plus two star freshmen - Mariya Moore and Myisha Hines-Allen. But let's remember...they were not top five or top ten recruits. Some had the two in the top 15; others had both between 30 and 40. But they came in and helped Louisville earn a Sweet 16 berth, which is very impressive considering how young the players were and the seniors lost to graduation.

Last year, Louisville started out very slowly, due to injuries, young players, trying to develop chemistry, and a very sluggish offense (1-4, then 3-5). But the team rallied and went 15-1 in the ACC (only a five-point loss to Notre Dame), before being upset by one against DePaul in the second round.

While last year had a disappointing ending, I would not say the team has "majorly" underachieved "the last few years" by any stretch.

Yet each of the last three years his performance in the NCAA's has worsened. Again, with top five classes. Still I root for his success, not his failure. I believe him to be one of the three or four best coaches in WCBB. Hopefully with another great class coming in he'll do better than the second round.

 

[4evercard]

I heard several media people last year point to the ACC as now the premier WBB league. Previous to Notre Dame, Louisville and Syracuse I'm like you I never heard such on the ACC. Duke and North Carolina have always been notable WBB programs. Florida State and Miami have stepped up their programs. I'm not going to research it, but I think it safe to say there are more programs from the ACC in the news in WBB recently than those from the SEC, despite South Carolina's success. Tennessee's recent demise has probably helped open the door for the rise of the ACC in WBB media attention.

You bring up an interesting point here. As long as I can remember (I'm only 29, but still especially in the last 10 years) the only conference I have ever heard ESPN, ESPNW, or an ESPN analyst refer to as the best conference in a WCBB is the SEC. That has been debated up and down and all around and I'm not trying to get you to agree or disagree with that but...

A few years back UConn, ND, Louisville, DePaul, Syracuse among others were all in the same conference and tearing everyone apart sending 2 teams to the NCAA title game year after year.... I don't recall the powers that be calling the Big East the best conference in WCBB and have certainly not heard that about the ACC maybe this was some time ago that that was the case.

Getting to my point if the pre-season #1 and #2 are in the same conference shouldn't that make it the best conference in WCBB? Or does the collection of teams below them and what they can do mean more than having 2 really good teams since basically every major WCBB conference is made up of 2 really good teams and 2 to 5 other teams that will make the tourney but likely don't have a shot in hell @ a FF.

 

[triaddukefan]

You bring up an interesting point here. As long as I can remember (I'm only 29, but still especially in the last 10 years) the only conference I have ever heard ESPN, ESPNW, or an ESPN analyst refer to as the best conference in a WCBB is the SEC. That has been debated up and down and all around and I'm not trying to get you to agree or disagree with that but...

A few years back UConn, ND, Louisville, DePaul, Syracuse among others were all in the same conference and tearing everyone apart sending 2 teams to the NCAA title game year after year.... I don't recall the powers that be calling the Big East the best conference in WCBB and have certainly not heard that about the ACC maybe this was some time ago that that was the case.

Getting to my point if the pre-season #1 and #2 are in the same conference shouldn't that make it the best conference in WCBB? Or does the collection of teams below them and what they can do mean more than having 2 really good teams since basically every major WCBB conference is made up of 2 really good teams and 2 to 5 other teams that will make the tourney but likely don't have a shot in hell @ a FF.

Ive never heard that

 

[Nuyoika]

I suppose if Louisville does make it to the title game.... the ACC would have to be the best conference in WCBB since they will have sent 3 different teams to the NCAA championship game in 3 years.

 

[triaddukefan]

Im sure this will pop up in this thread eventually, but I read alot about the only reason the ACC is strong in WCBB is that their better teams were poached from another conference (The Old Big East). Thats laughable to me, because you never hear the same people acknowledge that the only reason the Old Big East was so strong is that alot of their better teams were poached from other conferences as well.

 

[CocoHusky]

Nuyoika, I said "much better", not better. I'll stand with what I said, The Cards OOC schedule is a very nice schedule, especially when you consider they must compete in what many call the best women's basketball conference in the country.

CocoHuskey, Walz does not recruit once he's hit the NCAA limit of 15. He cut it off last season as soon as the 15th came about. Truthfully he thought he was through at 14 when he got a late commitment from Dunham. He has NEVER displaced an existing scholarship player in the ten years at Louisville.

Megan Deines?

 

[CocoHusky]

I heard several media people last year point to the ACC as now the premier WBB league.

Im sure this will pop up in this thread eventually, but I read alot about the only reason the ACC is strong in WCBB is that their better teams were poached from another conference (The Old Big East). Thats laughable to me, because you never hear the same people acknowledge that the only reason the Old Big East was so strong is that alot of their better teams were poached from other conferences as well.

OK good one! Equally laughable to me is that UCONN actually did play 3 of the top 4 ACC teams last year in ND, FSU, & Syracuse. All double digit wins by UCONN with an AMOV of 21.66 points. If UCONN was in the ACC they would still be looking for some real out of conference competition-Just like Louisville should be.

 

[Fightin Choke]

I agree. He has an excellent eye for under-the-radar talent. Indeed, when asked which player who did not attend UConn he would have liked to coach, Coach Geno responded, "Angel McCoughtry." Walk is a very fine coach, one of the best in the country. Unlike C. Viv or South Carolina, he outperforms with the talent he has, while the others underperform. Compared with Walz, the other two are chronically offensively challenged.

But he now over-recruits, he stockpiles kids, and that has to hurt going forward. Coach Geno under-recruits, but uses everyone he can, and gives everyone on the bench every opportunity to develop and perform. This coming year or two will be the first years in decades in which he will have a lot of superb players on the bench. In remarks a few weeks ago, he acknowledged that it could be a balancing act, and, if memory serves, said, "We'll see how it goes."

But in contrast, Walz just goes out and promises everyone everything. So if Orangutan is correct, even after several defections, Louisville will begin the season with fifteen bodies on its bench. Whether that's wise or not, it's certainly not fair to those players.

Jeff Walz cannot take credit for recruiting Angel McCoughtry. She was a junior during Walz's first year as head coach of the Cardinals. Jeff's predecessor, Tom Collen recruited her.

But I agree that Jeff accepts too many recruits. I'm not implying that he pulls their scholarships, but he is clearly recruiting more than he needs and those that don't work out seem to transfer at fairly high rates. If he is being honest with them when he recruits them, then it's easy to say it's the recruit's fault, but he knows more about the process than them, and so it is up to him to resist offering a recruit that has a low chance at success. What is he saying to his recruits NOT in the top 25 or so?

"You're really talented, but so are the other women on our team. You're going to have to work hard for playing time. Nothing is guaranteed. But I think you have what it takes to get us to the Final Four."

"You are the missing piece. If you join, you'll be a big part of an emerging team that will earn several trips to the Final Four! We need you on this team. Your strengths fill our weaknesses."

If he is saying the first, then I have no problem. But if his pitch is more like the second, and then he lets them fight it out their first year or two in Darwinian fashion, I take issue with it.

I know that 4evercard is uncomfortable with Jeff's large classes, so he is the least likely Louisville fan to defend Walz on this matter. The fact that he IS defending him gives me pause in criticizing Walz's recruiting. But if we see another 2 transfers this year, that will confirm to me that Jeff is not acting in the best interests of his recruits.

 

[triaddukefan]

OK good one! Equally laughable to me is that UCONN actually did play 3 of the top 4 ACC teams last year in ND, FSU, & Syracuse. All double digit wins by UCONN with an AMOV of 21.66 points. If UCONN was in the ACC they would still be looking for some real out of conference competition-Just like Louisville should be.

The ACC wasnt that good last year in my opinion.

 

[Fightin Choke]

You can try and hide behind that ACC schedule if you want. For one year before moving to ACC Louisville was in the same conference as UCONN. What did Louisville's OC schedule look like that year (2013-14 season) compared to UCONN's? UCONN is gonna run with the big dogs regardless of the conference they are in. Louisville, MD, Stanford, Baylor seems to be much more selective about running with the big dogs.

True, but it's not as dramatically true as you might think. To test the idea that UConn would have the same OOC schedule whether or not they belonged to a more competitive basketball conference, I just quickly went over the non-conference schedules of UConn since the 2001-02 season on ESPN (that's as far back as they go). I didn't bother trying to figure out the preseason top 25, but recorded how many teams were ranked at the time of the game with UConn (which is listed on the ESPN schedule).

Here is the history:

Year: top 10 teams (top 25 teams)
2001: 4 (5)
2002: 2 (3)
2003: 2 (2)
2004: 3 (4)
2005: 3 (3)
2006: 4 (4)
2007: 3 (4)
2008: 2 (2)
2009: 4 (6)
2010: 4 (7)
2011: 4 (5)
2012: 5 (7)
2013: 4 (6)
2014: 4 (5)
2015: 4 (6)

So UConn started really ramping up the schedule toughness Maya's junior season and that has continued to the present. It may have been tougher the past 3 years when UConn was in the American, but the data suggest the only jump was the 2009-2010 season. UConn's OOC schedule was not consistently tough prior to 2009, so Geno hasn't always scheduled the gauntlet that we see now.

 

[SCGamecock]

The ACC should be stronger top to bottom than the SEC next year. Keyword "should".

Notre Dame, Syracuse, Louisville, Florida State will all be top 25-esque teams next season. Miami and Duke (despite losing Stevens/Salvadores.. they do add Lexie Brown, a very good pg) should both be teams good enough to give anybody a game. North Carolina?

In the SEC, South Carolina, Mississippi State and possibly Tennessee will be top 25. Florida and A&M will flirt with the rankings. Tennessee is taking a major hit as far as injuries and I'm not sure what to think about them, but Russell, Deshields and Nared are still on roster. A&M and Georgia will both be good enough to give a scare here or there. Kentucky will likely take a major step back after a hellish offseason.. but they still have Makayla Epps.

 

[4evercard]

Megan Deines had her degree so she was eligible to transfer without sitting out. She saw she had little chance of getting anymore playing time than the previous year so she chose to take her last year elsewhere. Walz did not chase her, nor did he fill his scholarship limit before she made her decision.

I greatly admire Husky wbb fans and your knowledge, but perhaps from the view you guys have been viewing wbb college basketball for so long, off the charts above everyone else, you've lost the ability to see things the way those of us striving to be a UConn are experiencing. Walz gets the best players he can each year. Some may not work out. They're not all UConn type players. Hardly any are. Each year he starts over and tries to get even better players, if possible. Something wrong with that? I don't like transfers. No one does. But until that day comes that we are definitely one of the best four to five programs in the country or even capable of dreaming of being a UConn, Walz has to do whatever it takes to get the best players on the floor. We've watched a steady upgrade since he's been at Louisville up to this point of six McD AAs so you want to criticize him go ahead. Yes, I'm uneasy, but watching his progress I'm sure not going to question what he's doing.

I suggest the next three to four years and we hope hereafter, we've reached a plateau we can legitimately get to final fours regularly without having to pull gigantic upsets like Walz has had to do in the past with undermanned teams. Perhaps then all our players will be top quality and the need to gamble so much and keep 15 scholarships will not be necessary. Until then we'll watch Walz do what he must and hope he continues to upgrade our program.

BTW, we came within a whisker of averaging 10,000 fans per game last season. It's already looking like we'll be increasing that by a couple of thousand so the Cards are doing everything possible to become a UConn or something similar. In the 22,000 seat YUM Center, our ladies play in the nicest arena in the country for a women's program. We think it is the nicest for a men's program

 

[CocoHusky]

Suffice it to say that if UConn were in the ACC, their OOC schedule would look similar to Louisville's for the same reason.

I strongly disagree. UCONN's OOC schedule has regularly included teams like Baylor, Stanford, Duke, Maryland, and TN & more recently South Carolina & Notre Dame when those teams had NC aspirations as evidenced by #1-3 rankings.

 

[uconnell]

Im sure this will pop up in this thread eventually, but I read alot about the only reason the ACC is strong in WCBB is that their better teams were poached from another conference (The Old Big East). Thats laughable to me, because you never hear the same people acknowledge that the only reason the Old Big East was so strong is that alot of their better teams were poached from other conferences as well.

lol that is not true. Would the ACC trade the AAC , Louisville,ND,BCU,and Pitt for Huston,ECU, UCF,Tulane and Tulsa? No? Who did we poach most of those teams from CUSA, that's who. If those teams are so good why didn't the ACC take them?

 

[uconnell]

I respect the coaches who played UConn during the Stewie years . Walz not so much besides he is a whiner at every darn call.
When it was Stewies last year, he recruited like crazy and then decided he would play us, this year.

 

[Fightin Choke]

I strongly disagree. UCONN's OOC schedule has regularly included teams like Baylor, Stanford, Duke, Maryland, and TN & more recently South Carolina & Notre Dame when those teams had NC aspirations as evidenced by #1-3 rankings.

Oh Coco, you missed (or misinterpreted) his eye roll (indicating sarcasm). Carnac's thoughts align with your own.

 

[CocoHusky]

Oh Coco, you missed (or misinterpreted) his eye roll (indicating sarcasm). Carnac's thoughts align with your own.

I did miss that! But @Carnac probably knew that I was going to miss it before I missed it!

 

[Fightin Choke]

lol that is not true. Would the ACC trade the AAC , Louisville,ND,BCU,and Pitt for Huston,ECU, UCF,Tulane and Tulsa? No? Who did we poach most of those teams from CUSA, that's who. If those teams are so good why didn't the ACC take them?

triad was referring to the Old Big East that did the poaching, not the American. But I think a lot of the old Big East teams were previously independents. I know Florida State, Miami and Notre Dame were independent before joining the BE. I think that VTech was as well. BC was a charter member, along with Providence, Syracuse, St. John's, UConn, Georgetown, Seton Hall, with Pitt and Villanova joining early on. I don't know about WVU and some of the others. But the ACC absolutely ransacked the old Big East through successive raids. The old ACC was like the Vikings!

 

[JordyG]

I respect the coaches who played UConn during the Stewie years . Walz not so much besides he is a whiner at every darn call.
When it was Stewies last year, he recruited like crazy and then decided he would play us, this year.

He's a whiner alright, but Doug Burt makes them all look like mutes. Just because Burt doesn't throw jackets or choke his assistants like Mulkey doesn't excuse him.

 

[JordyG]

I respect the coaches who played UConn during the Stewie years . Walz not so much besides he is a whiner at every darn call.
When it was Stewies last year, he recruited like crazy and then decided he would play us, this year.

Just to be fair, Walz wasn't the only one who ducked The UConn this past few years. Kim are you listening?

 

[uconnell]

Well kudos to ND, USCe, MD,I am sure I missed an other team or 2

 

[triaddukefan]

lol that is not true. Would the ACC trade the AAC , Louisville,ND,BCU,and Pitt for Huston,ECU, UCF,Tulane and Tulsa? No? Who did we poach most of those teams from CUSA, that's who. If those teams are so good why didn't the ACC take them?

I guess reading isn't fundamental after all


Anyway.... The Old Big East poached Notre Dame from the MCC, Rutgers and WVU from the A-10, Louisville, Depaul, Marquette, and South Florida from Conference USA.......

 

[Carnac]

Oh Coco, you missed (or misinterpreted) his eye roll (indicating sarcasm). Carnac's thoughts align with your own.

Heh heh heh, thanks Choke.

The back and forth dicussion on this thread is great!. I miss this kind of strong phylisphophical debating.

 

[uconnell]

View attachment 14871

I guess reading isn't fundamental after all


Anyway.... The Old Big East poached Notre Dame from the MCC, Rutgers and WVU from the A-10, Louisville, Depaul, Marquette, and South Florida from Conference USA..

My point is do you think the ACC would trade most of those schools for the schools that the ACC took from the Big East? The ACC poached the schools they did because they wanted to kill the BE which was a better conference.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

Im sure this will pop up in this thread eventually, but I read alot about the only reason the ACC is strong in WCBB is that their better teams were poached from another conference (The Old Big East). Thats laughable to me, because you never hear the same people acknowledge that the only reason the Old Big East was so strong is that alot of their better teams were poached from other conferences as well.

Have to disagree. The Big East was a conference for many years with the same members, or virtually the same. They started out as a basketball conference, not a football conference. I don't know who was poached from other conferences to create the original Big East. But it really had the same purpose.

But look at the current ACC, and you see that most of the top teams came from the old Big East: Notre Dame, Louisville, Syracuse. And two of the next highest- Miami and Florida State- were brought in over the past several years from elsewhere for their football programs. The traditional ACC basketball schools have slid- North Carolina, and Duke. Maryland took off for the Big Ten.

So without the former Big East teams, the ACC would be in the cellar.

 

[CocoHusky]

Have to disagree. The Big East was a conference for many years with the same members, or virtually the same. They started out as a basketball conference, not a football conference. I don't know who was poached from other conferences to create the original Big East. But it really had the same purpose.

But look at the current ACC, and you see that most of the top teams came from the old Big East: Notre Dame, Louisville, Syracuse. And two of the next highest- Miami and Florida State- were brought in over the past several years from elsewhere for their football programs. The traditional ACC basketball schools have slid- North Carolina, and Duke. Maryland took off for the Big Ten.

So without the former Big East teams, the ACC would be in the cellar.

I don't see how you can say "I don't know who was poached from other conferences to create the original Big East." and then disagree that "Teams were poached to create the Big East"

 

[Fairfield Fan]

I don't see how you can say "I don't know who was poached from other conferences to create the original Big East." and then disagree that "Teams were poached to create the Big East"

OK. Here's the scoop on how the Big East was formed, courtesy of Wikipedia (Big East Conference (1979–2013) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia):

"The Big East often referred to as the Classic Big East was founded in 1979 after new NCAA basketball scheduling requirements caused the athletic directors of independent schools Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, and Syracuse to discuss the creation of a conference centered in the Northeast.[6] Other schools invited were Seton Hall, Connecticut, Holy Cross, Rutgers, and Boston College, with Rutgers and Holy Cross declining to join.[6] Villanova joined a year later in 1980[7] and Pittsburgh joined in 1982.[8] Before the formation of the conference, many of these schools participated in the ECAC Men's Basketball Tournament in order to receive an automatic bid for the NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship."

So these original schools were either independent, or members of the ECAC, which was hardly a conference. Then:

"About a decade after the conference's inception, Big East members decided to become a major football conference and thus added five schools including Rutgers, Miami, Temple, Virginia Tech, and West Virginia. The inaugural Big East football season launched in 1991.[10] West Virginia and Rutgers joined the Big East as full members in 1995,[11] and Virginia Tech joined as a full member in 2000.[12] Temple remained a football-only member until 2004, when it was voted out of the conference due to poor attendance figures, lack of playing success, and inadequate facilities.[13] The Big East offered Notre Dame a non-football membership effective 1995.[14]"

Then it began to collapse. Boise State applied for membership, etc. Miami left for the ACC. And so it goes.

But the original Big East, the original basketball conference, went back more than three decades, and it wasn't formed by cherry-picking colleges from power conferences. And it is those original conference members whose women's basketball teams are still superb, and contending for championships in several conferences today.

 

[CocoHusky]

OK. Here's the scoop on how the Big East was formed, courtesy of Wikipedia (Big East Conference (1979–2013) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia):

"The Big East often referred to as the Classic Big East was founded in 1979 after new NCAA basketball scheduling requirements caused the athletic directors of independent schools Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, and Syracuse to discuss the creation of a conference centered in the Northeast.[6] Other schools invited were Seton Hall, Connecticut, Holy Cross, Rutgers, and Boston College, with Rutgers and Holy Cross declining to join.[6] Villanova joined a year later in 1980[7] and Pittsburgh joined in 1982.[8] Before the formation of the conference, many of these schools participated in the ECAC Men's Basketball Tournament in order to receive an automatic bid for the NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship."

So these original schools were either independent, or members of the ECAC, which was hardly a conference. Then:

"About a decade after the conference's inception, Big East members decided to become a major football conference and thus added five schools including Rutgers, Miami, Temple, Virginia Tech, and West Virginia. The inaugural Big East football season launched in 1991.[10] West Virginia and Rutgers joined the Big East as full members in 1995,[11] and Virginia Tech joined as a full member in 2000.[12] Temple remained a football-only member until 2004, when it was voted out of the conference due to poor attendance figures, lack of playing success, and inadequate facilities.[13] The Big East offered Notre Dame a non-football membership effective 1995.[14]"

Then it began to collapse. Boise State applied for membership, etc. Miami left for the ACC. And so it goes.

But the original Big East, the original basketball conference, went back more than three decades, and it wasn't formed by cherry-picking colleges from power conferences. And it is those original conference members whose women's basketball teams are still superb, and contending for championships in several conferences today.

Good ole Wiki. I was aware of all of the above didn't have to look it. You do realize that in 1979 the concept of "5 Power" conferences did not exists right? So there was no such thing as poaching from a power conference just regular poaching-which is what the Big East did. .

 

[j66kicker]

But look at the current ACC, and you see that most of the top teams came from the old Big East: Notre Dame, Louisville, Syracuse. And two of the next highest- Miami and Florida State- were brought in over the past several years from elsewhere for their football programs. The traditional ACC basketball schools have slid- North Carolina, and Duke. Maryland took off for the Big Ten.

So without the former Big East teams, the ACC would be in the cellar.

NC & Duke have "slid" in BB? WBB maybe, but in MBB, which is the only other thing besides football that the conferences care about, those 2 are not only by far the winningest programs in the ACC, they are consistently the best in the country.