Lou - National Player of the Year?

[oldude]

From one "View attachment 17894 to another: I was reacting to the "2 candidates" comment and thinking perhaps there are four. I tend to use pictures, which at times like this are apparently not worth 1000 words.

Sorry OB. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.....not enough fiber in my diet.

 

[Los24]

I agree with you on your opinion. What is it that KLS does better than Collier other than shoot more accurately from outside. Collier rebounds better, plays better defense, blocks more shots and moves without the ball just as much as KLS. Her ppg average is just below KLS's. What is it about KLS that makes some think she is better than Collier? As far as the best player in the country, has anyone seen all the good players in the country. I'vs seen players just as good as either KLS or Collier. All of the outstanding players are not on the teams in the top ten rankings. But then, I know these are just people's opinions so I should not complain.

Good points. I would add that KLS has more capability to create her own shoot and she is definitely a better passer, not that NC is a bad passer. KLS can take folks off the dribble, curl off a screen and obviously pop from 5 feet outside the 3 point line. Her release is also very fast. I also see her being more of a leader in terms of directing folks and having the ball flowing through her more. Again different players, but can not dismiss KLS overall game by saying she can only shoot better from outside. My favorite part of NC is that fadeaway jumper from close to mid-range, that seems to be almost unstoppable, even against bigger opponents. Lucky to have both.

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

I agree with the sentiment and support provided. However, I believe that if anyone from UConn is given serious consideration, it will be Gabby, simply because her athletic feats are so much more...ostentatious...than Lou's work.

I also agree that this is largely a race between Wilson and Plum, but others (Kelsey Mitchell in particular) could knock Wilson out of that spot. Barring a Danny Manning/Carmelo Anthony/Kemba Walker-esque performance between now and the Final Four, I think that Lou is a longshot due to her being a sophomore. Maya is the only sophomore Wade winner ever; the Naismith has been won by a sophomore woman four times (Maya, Stewie, Clarissa Davis and Cheryl Miller).

 

[Carnac]

A coach once said to me 'The best player has the most "mights" next to their name." His theory was: in the last five minutes of a close game the best player "might" help us win in a number of ways. You might score. You might grab a rebound. You might block a shot. You might lockdown someone on defense. You might steal the ball. Etc.

Napheesa has the most "mights".

Rebounding is a large part of the game. I like a lot of things about Collier (she's one of my two favorites on the team). One is that she (and Gabby) will get right in the middle of a group of players and fight for a rebound relentlessly the entire game. That is part of her game. How many time have we seen her come out of a group with the rebound? She does that without thinking about it. It's reactive.

She has a knack or a nose for the ball that can't be taught. The "Worm" Dennis Rodman had it. He could tell were the ball was coming off the rim before the ball hit it. He couldn't shoot, but he'd get you 15 -20 rebounds a game. Remember the immortal words of then L.A. Lakers head coach Pat Riley during their showtime era: "No rebounds, no rings".

 

[psconn]

Sorry OB. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.....not enough fiber in my diet.

Hmmmm. Doesn't lack of fiber generally slow down the opposite of "uptake''.

 

[oldude]

Rebounding is a large part of the game. I like a lot of things about Collier (she's one of my two favorites on the team). One is that she (and Gabby) will get right in the middle of a group of players and fight for a rebound relentlessly the entire game. That is part of her game. How many time have we seen her come out of a group with the rebound? She does that without thinking about it. It's reactive.

She has a knack or a nose for the ball that can't be taught. The "Worm" Dennis Rodman had it. He could tell were the ball was coming off the rim before the ball hit it. He couldn't shoot, but he'd get you 15 -20 rebounds a game. Remember the immortal words of then L.A. Lakers head coach Pat Riley during their showtime era: "No rebounds, no rings".

Rodman was a great rebounder and one of the NBA's best defenders when he played for the Pistons & Bulls, but the best players on those two teams were Isiah Thomas & MJ because they could light up the scoreboard in big games.

 

[Carnac]

Rodman was a great rebounder and one of the NBA's best defenders when he played for the Pistons & Bulls, but the best players on those two teams were Isiah Thomas & MJ because they could light up the scoreboard in big games.

No argument here.

 

[Kibitzer]

When describing Gabby's formidable rebounding skills, one of our Boneyard expert analysts credited her with getting "every rebound in site."

His comment was grammatically errant. But, give it a moment of reflection and you realize that he just might be spot-on.

 

[UcMiami]

Couple of points some of which have been made already:
1. Lou is much more likely to be defending jump shooters at the arc and on offense spends much more of her time 20' from the basket so her chances of being close to the basket for rebounds is not as great as Gabby or Napheesa.

2. She is also typically being designated as the rim protector for defensive set-up during Uconn free throws - which also spreads over to providing court balance on Uconn shot attempts from the field, leaking back on defense rather than crashing he boards for an offensive rebound - if Uconn gets the board she is then moving forward to the arc as a spot up three shooter.

3. On defensive rebounding she is often the one leaking out for a fast break opportunity as well.

While everyone pitches in on rebounds, position on the floor and designated roles in keeping court balance has an effect on who gets some of the rebounds.

 

[oldude]

When describing Gabby's formidable rebounding skills, one of our Boneyard expert analysts credited her with getting "every rebound in site."

His comment was grammatically errant. But, give it a moment of reflection and you realize that he just might be spot-on.

It takes a wise man to make sense of a fool

 

[Rayvin56]

I agree that Lou's lack of rebounding sets her back in terms of overall assessment. She's the tallest starter and yet can't be relied upon for grabbing boards. It's not toughness: she's certainly that. She just doesn't have that knack for getting into position and following the ball (like Pheesa and Gabby do). She has terrific instincts for anticipating and getting the charge and for stealing the ball at waist level. But unless she commits like Rick Barry (whose father-in-law Bruce Hale actually forced him to be a great rebounder through countless painful repetitions), she just won't become one. Are you reading this thread, CD?

Rick Barry! The mention of his name brought back memories of listening to the NY Nets (this was in the ABA days) on my transistor radio in the late '60s. I remember his trademark underhanded free throw technique, and his teammates Bill Melchionni and, of course, the amazing Dr. J. Remember those red, white and blue balls?
Thanks for triggering those memories, Bags.

 

[cbraarj]

Let me start by saying I love KLS's game (I also love the way Collier and Gabby are playing game-in and game-out.) I said in a thread earlier this year that I thought KLS would be the most likely AA from UConn this year (when others were touting Kia) and I think she is on a course to do that. She has a superior (and expanding) offensive game.

However, I am not sure about NPOY just yet. There are still parts of her game that need a bit work to call her the best player in the nation. Her defense is not above average and she is not the presence on the boards that I hope she will be in time. You hope a NPOY has all three elements to their game (perhaps with assists substituting for rebounds if we are talking about a guard). KLS is fortunate to play on a team where she will never be asked to guard the other team's best guard or their best forward. Think, in contrast, how MoJet and Stewie were often asked to guard the best player on the other team.

Having said all that I do think she is one of the top five players in the country. I'm just not ready to place her as the best yet.

I think Napheesa has that all-around game. If she plays like she has all year. Collier is in the running.

 

[cbraarj]

It also helps that Gabby can jump so high. By now we've all seen the video of her in the high jump clearing 6 feet 2 inches. It's like she has springs in her shoes or something. You see a ball ricochet off the basket or backboard seemingly headed for the other team's tallest player, and out of nowhere you see this arm reach up and just snatch the ball out of the air, and it's the arm attached to 5' 11" Gabby.

Imagine Gabby at 6 ft. 4 in,wow!

 

[ochoopsfan]

Gut feeling Lou would rather hold the NCAA Championship Trophy High above her head in April. I think she would want that honor more than anything.

 

[DefenseBB]

Let me start by saying I love KLS's game (I also love the way Collier and Gabby are playing game-in and game-out.) I said in a thread earlier this year that I thought KLS would be the most likely AA from UConn this year (when others were touting Kia) and I think she is on a course to do that. She has a superior (and expanding) offensive game.

However, I am not sure about NPOY just yet. There are still parts of her game that need a bit work to call her the best player in the nation. Her defense is not above average and she is not the presence on the boards that I hope she will be in time. You hope a NPOY has all three elements to their game (perhaps with assists substituting for rebounds if we are talking about a guard). KLS is fortunate to play on a team where she will never be asked to guard the other team's best guard or their best forward. Think, in contrast, how MoJet and Stewie were often asked to guard the best player on the other team.

Having said all that I do think she is one of the top five players in the country. I'm just not ready to place her as the best yet.

so then....who is more deserving of it at this point?

 

[donalddoowop]

Gut feeling Lou would rather hold the NCAA Championship Trophy High above her head in April. I think she would want that honor more than anything.

And to actually PLAY in the championship game.

 

[JudgeSCR]

so then....who is more deserving of it at this point?

I don't know. Given that I haven't seen South Carolina play this year, and I have seen ND only once, and I haven't seen Plum and I haven't seen .... Given what I haven't seen I'm not ready to make a NPOY pronouncement yet.

I could see KLS and Collier in the running if they continue to improve on aspects of their game. I think they are both strong AA candidates right now.

The thing that KLS has is a transcendent skill -- she can score with the very best UConn has seen (as a sophomore) and has the scorer's confidence. She is a loud scorer. Big bold shots. Throwing daggers from deep and hitting arteries.

Collier is very quiet. Even her blocks are quiet. I thought her last game was one of her worst and I look at the stats and she has 14 points and 15 rebounds. She doesn't scare you with any of her skills ... she will just beat you.

Samuelson is the yin to Collier's yang. Often when Samuelson makes a big shot of takes a charge she will let out a scream. When Collier scores or blocks a shot she barely smiles. Samuelson gives the the refs side eye, Collier gives them wide eyes. Samuelson is a cannon blow. Collier is death by a thousand cuts. They will both kill you. They are different sides of the same coin. Both great. Both AAs ... so far.

 

[Kibitzer]

Samuelson is the yin to Collier's yang. Often when Samuelson makes a big shot of takes a charge she will let out a scream. When Collier scores or blocks a shot she barely smiles. Samuelson gives the the refs side eye, Collier gives them wide eyes. Samuelson is a cannon blow. Collier is death by a thousand cuts. They will both kill you. They are different sides of the same coin. Both great. Both AAs ... so far.

So Pheesa represents slow death by Chinese water torture while Lou ends it quickly by drowning.

 

[Gus Mahler]

When describing Gabby's formidable rebounding skills, one of our Boneyard expert analysts credited her with getting "every rebound in site."

His comment was grammatically errant. But, give it a moment of reflection and you realize that he just might be spot-on.

I gotcha. She also incites considerable mayhem around the basket at both ends by getting a hand on the ball.

 

[tomcat]

Whoile I can see why you might think of Katie Lou as a great NPOY candidate -- and who am I to disagree? -- I don't think that to date she is the MVP on this UConn team.

 

[Buzzyboy]

I live in the Carolinas and think while A'ja is a tremendous player she would not be on my list of NPOY. I think the kind of player that can impose their will on the game at anytime is a NPOY and do not see that from her consistently. While I realize she is a big and not a guard so its a little more challenging to do so, look at how Napheesa has done it over this thus far challenging schedule.

I have not seen Plum play that much outside some highlights so its unfair for me to state whether she is or is not better than UCONNs two.

I will say that each KLS and NC are very different players which would be hard to pick from at this point. I like the write up in this thread that recognizes that her versatility continues to grow. One edge I give KLS is that the offense seems to flow through her where NC is a bit of the by product of it. KLS can score from anywhere at anytime. NC has an edge on that fall away jumper that let's her get off her shot against anyone and for the offense glass. While she is a good rebounder period, her Off Reb is outstanding which leads to easier scores and high FG%. Also while KLS can knock out a team (clear evidence in last two games but also in some others this year,) NC seems to be more of a quiet assassin. You just look at her box score and say wow, "I did not realize she had that kind of game."

Side note: If Gabby was a more reliable scorer, especially with an outside shot, and committed slightly less turnovers she would be here too because her intangibles and defensive versatility are off the charts compared to most women in the game. She fills a stat sheet across the board and seems to play big in big games.

It seems like an appreciable amount of Napheesa's points are of the "put back" variety, rebounding someone's miss and laying it in. That is the reason for her higher shooting percentage overall. I respect that and it's necessary but I do think that KLS and her shooting abilities really open things up for Napheesa and for Gabby, as well. Gabby is a monster, really contributing all over the court and is such an asset to this Huskie team but my favorite Huskie has to be KLS and as has been mentioned, she's only getting more multi-dimensional.

 

[Buzzyboy]

I agree with the sentiment and support provided. However, I believe that if anyone from UConn is given serious consideration, it will be Gabby, simply because her athletic feats are so much more...ostentatious...than Lou's work.

I also agree that this is largely a race between Wilson and Plum, but others (Kelsey Mitchell in particular) could knock Wilson out of that spot. Barring a Danny Manning/Carmelo Anthony/Kemba Walker-esque performance between now and the Final Four, I think that Lou is a longshot due to her being a sophomore. Maya is the only sophomore Wade winner ever; the Naismith has been won by a sophomore woman four times (Maya, Stewie, Clarissa Davis and Cheryl Miller).

Mentioning Kelsey Mitchell as a possibility in light of the negative reviews she got from a lot of Boneyarder's who thought her overall game is HIGHLY overrated was pretty brave. Many here were absolutely not impressed with her and thought that she was anything but a solid All-American type candidate, partially based on her performance the other night. I surely felt that a lot of the criticism was valid so you may want to reconsider her as a serious candidate. Then too, some here think that Aja Wilson isn't even the best player on her team so that makes it difficult to figure her winning Player of the Year consideration. Just saying!

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

Mentioning Kelsey Mitchell as a possibility in light of the negative reviews she got from a lot of Boneyarder's who thought her overall game is HIGHLY overrated was pretty brave. Many here were absolutely not impressed with her and thought that she was anything but a solid All-American type candidate, partially based on her performance the other night. I surely felt that a lot of the criticism was valid so you may want to reconsider her as a serious candidate. Then too, some here think that Aja Wilson isn't even the best player on her team so that makes it difficult to figure her winning Player of the Year consideration. Just saying!

No change to my opinions. I try to think from the voter's standpoint, and upper classmen/high scorers/big names/big schools tend to get the most votes. Both Mitchell and Wilson are upperclassmen at big programs, Mitchell making a run at the all-time NCAA scoring record and Wilson is as big a name as there is in Women's Basketball today.

For Example: Kelly Faris may have been the single best all around player UConn ever had, but she was never seriously considered for either award (outside of the BY and the like). She was arguably the best shutdown defender UConn has ever had, a tireless worker both in practice and on the court, a Leader in the locker room, and (paraphrasing the color commentator for the NC game) referred to as "The embodiment of all that is Good in Women's Basketball". All of that, and not even on the final list of Wade candidates; while she did make the final 30 for the Naismith, there was no buzz over her.

Nope, I stand on Mitchell, Wilson, and Plum. At this time my money is on Plum, despite being at a lesser (or newcomer) program.

 

[oldude]

I was able to watch Plum last night, as a result of purchasing Sports Pass 2 nights ago so I could watch the Huskies bury the Huskers.

She had 29 pts & she is really good. Her game is similar to that other Kelsey (Mitchell), but she plays under control. Plum is definitely a legitimate NPOY candidate although I still go with Lou who is a better passer, rebounder & defender IMO.

 

[HopJim]

I don't know. Given that I haven't seen South Carolina play this year, and I have seen ND only once, and I haven't seen Plum and I haven't seen .... Given what I haven't seen I'm not ready to make a NPOY pronouncement yet.

I could see KLS and Collier in the running if they continue to improve on aspects of their game. I think they are both strong AA candidates right now.

The thing that KLS has is a transcendent skill -- she can score with the very best UConn has seen (as a sophomore) and has the scorer's confidence. She is a loud scorer. Big bold shots. Throwing daggers from deep and hitting arteries.

Collier is very quiet. Even her blocks are quiet. I thought her last game was one of her worst and I look at the stats and she has 14 points and 15 rebounds. She doesn't scare you with any of her skills ... she will just beat you.

Samuelson is the yin to Collier's yang. Often when Samuelson makes a big shot of takes a charge she will let out a scream. When Collier scores or blocks a shot she barely smiles. Samuelson gives the the refs side eye, Collier gives them wide eyes. Samuelson is a cannon blow. Collier is death by a thousand cuts. They will both kill you. They are different sides of the same coin. Both great. Both AAs ... so far.

Well thought out comments. As with many sports, tough when two players are at such a high level to pick one as #1. Likely split vote will come into play.

 

[hoophuskee]

Have no idea who would be NPOY. For UCONN a lot will come down to their games vs MD and USC. If they win, there is no way some of the Core 4 can't be in the discussion. No way one or two or even three of them cant be in the discussion. I don't think Kia has the individual numbers to be a NPOY type. That's not her game unless she begins to drill 3's at a proficient/efficient/prolific rate. There are only so many baskets I think se can get driving the lane. So it would be down to 3:

Gabby- To be a NPOY she has to score more. She is averaging just 10 ppg. You won't get voted as a NPOY at just 10 per game unless your defense and passing are so obviously great. Gabby's defense is great but because she is being forced to play power forwards and centers/ out of position, not her fault, I don't thin she'll get NPOY consideration for that. For her to eb NPOY, she must be able to consistently hit outside jump shots. They do sag off of her. If she can hit consistently, then she becomes MORE than "Draymond Green" which Geno once compared her to. Instead she would be more like an elite HOF type of comparable player. Until she knocks down at least the 15 footers at a decent volume / efficient rate, I don't think her current stats will get to be a NPOY.

Which leads us to Lou and Collier. Defensively Collier does everything better. There are a few offensive things she does better too. Overall it appears she is the likely number 1 candidate.

With that said-- Lou brings something non-statistical in which Collier can't bring to her game. Lou impacts the game just by standing on the court. As most of us have said about Lou many times, she is a nightmare / mismatch matchup. She is 6'3, long, and has a high release. Teams are scared to play UCONN in a zone even though Collier and Gabby flourish with their movement and drives and ability to score inside. I just recall two tough opponents post game presser - Texas and Notre Dame. Both coaches said they thought about playing zone but decided against it? OFC Kia shooting very, very well and Chong is a fine shooter and Danger and even Collier can shoot-- but who do they most fear? Would these players in of itself preclude you from playing zone? So far the elite teams are reluctant to play zone in large part because of Lou. Thus Lou's presence opens the floor and allows Gabby and Collier to play more towards their strengths. And with so much emphasis on the comment we hear often when Lou is taking a 3- we hear "If there is one player you can't lose on UCONN, it is Lou." This type of emphasis allows Kia and others more looks from 3 which is why as a team - even without Lou UCONN is shooting 38.2% from 3. Which is terrific.

I'm 50-50 with Lou and Collier. The beauty of this team and these two players - they are freak matchups. How do you defend them other than "hope they miss?" That's the beauty of this team. You take away something - they seem to have the counter-answers. Hopefully it continues.

 

[wallman]

In my opinion there is not much similarity in anyones game to KLS, especially her offensive game. Long range on a very quick hard to guard shot beyond the arc, which she can pop or shoot off the dribble or in transition, mid range game both off the dribble, off the curl, pop and flare with great reads on the D, gets to the hoop by reading the D on a close out and before the double comes, posts and cuts around the basket. She sees the court several plays and passes ahead, outlets the ball long, Gabby becoming also great at this, passes on the touch reading and seeing the players and leads them to easy shots. Movement without the ball second to none on this team as far as the defense face guarding and doubling her, CDs inner monolog obviously working.

She can create wide open lay ups for others by her movement alone and forcing 2 or more players to hedge toward her. She is as smart defensively, having clearly learned from your coaches how to use that length and long wing span but also uses her smarts to position herself against the other players weaknesses which can be seen by the number of charges she takes. Geno seems to always go to her when he needs a bucket or a pass to a bucket or to break the press.

My scout of this team would be to exploit Collier in the post as she is often out of position, i.e. against Turner in the second half of ND game, against Lewis and also even against Shepard although Shepard was unable to hit anything. I wouldn't be going at Williams as he pushes her player away from the basket and can jump out of the gym. Offensively I would leave Collier open away from the basket, using only a slight hedge as she is a slow shooter and needs set up, thats what Nebraska did and not let her get her favorite scoring position around the basket where she is at her most dangerous.

 

[easttexastrash]

For UCONN players, Collier gets my vote. IMO, Alexis Jones is as strong a candidate as anyone but probably won't be considered because she wasn't on the radar last year, and in WCBB you often get rewarded for what you did last year and what your reputation is coming into the season.

Thus, A'ja Wilson will most likely be the POY since she is the most hyped coming into the season. That is not to say that she is not a super player, just that she is the most hyped and therefore has the edge with those who get to vote. I also think that if WNBA teams could pick any player from any classification that Wilson would be the top pick in the WNBA draft.

 

[shinobimono]

I don't know how you can nominate Lou for NPOY without giving the same nod to Napheesa. I think they are both potential NPOY candidates, but I don't see Lou overshadowing NC at this stage of the season. To me, NC appears to be further along in the mental side of the game and does a lot of other things well (blocks, steals and rebounds). Lou, on the other hand, is a really explosive offensive player, more explosive than Stewie was, in my view, and scores points rapidly and effortlessly. Her overall game is steadily improving in almost all facets and will continue to do so under Geno (this, after all, is why she came to UConn). By the end of the year, they could both well be serious NPOY candidates (in fact, it's scary to think how good they could be as juniors and seniors). To me, they are the backbone of this team (and its quiet leaders), something that I think Geno acknowledged in his recent comment about how you need two players of their caliber around which to build a championship team. They have really risen to the challenge this year, taking on leadership roles. This is not meant to take anything away from Gabby or Kia, who are very key players in their own right. The future of UConn WBB is truly exciting. And next year's team, OMG!

 

[Waquoit]

I think Gabby is the best player on the team. But it's a moot point. These guys play team ball and let the stats fall where they may.